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Dinosaurs ... Dragon(ewt)s? Maran Gor?


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1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Sometimes they are. But I am thrilled with the approach he has taken to Gods War 2 which has to balance Gloranthan grognards, with being an appealing boardgames for the broader audience.

That's why I suggested hesitation rather than rejection.  Your Visualisation of Glorantha Will Vary, but there are some that are, perhaps, closer to the source than others. 

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14 hours ago, soltakss said:

Some dinosaurs are degenerate Dragonewts, but not all.

Some dinosaurs are descended from Maran Gor, but not all.

Some dinosaurs are descended from immature or broken dragon eggs, but not all.

Dinosaurs have a varied descent, but similar types of dinosaur can breed with each other regardless of whether they are descended from a rogue dragonewt, from Maran Gor or from a bad dragon egg. After all, a brontosaurus is a brontosaurus is a brontosaurus.

While I don't exactly disagree with this, it doesn't sit quite right with me.  It is a bit of a sloppy answer, speaking entirely mythologically.  To have dinosaurs slipping haphazardly into various species this way and being fertile? Something is wrong.  Every other species in Glorantha probably has an origin myth and associated deities, why not dinosaurs?

So let's consider Maran Gor. She is the Earth Shaker goddess.  She likes these big reptiles that shake the earth as they move, and she has been linked to them religiously.  Now how does that fit with a poor little Maiasaur?  Maiasaurs don't shake the earth when they move, they don't worship bloodthirsty Maran Gor, and are in fact peaceful vegetarian critters, and quite smart.  Or pterodactyls? Can't see much connection with earth shaking there either.

Now the connection with the larger dinosaurs is more obvious.  Allosauruses are bloodthirsty and earth shaking, and while triceratops and brontosaurs are herbivores, but also shake the earth.  Now as far as I know, we don't even have a full list of the dinosaur types roaming Glorantha.  We can be pretty sure that a triceratops can't fertilize a maiasaur's eggs though, even though mythologically, if the species are so very wibbly wobbly, that should be far from impossible, and who knows what the progeny would look like?  So lets rule out this absurdity before dinosaurs become parents of protean broo-like monstrosities.  Clearly dinosaurs have species, and those species can only fertilize others of their own species, like all the other non-Chaotic types of creatures.

Back to the Earth connection now... In fact we don't know a lot about any connections between Maran Gor and the Dragonewts. We can speculate though. For example, we know of an earth goddess mating with a dragon and producing Hykim and Mikyh.  Did this event even involve Maran Gor ?  Perhaps she hold the clues to this possibly chthonic mystery?  Then again, perhaps she picked up the connection during the EWF or directly after the Dragon Kill when the Pure Horse people came to settle Dragon Pass and the Feathered Horse Queen became tied to the land via rituals with the Inhuman King?  Clearly there is a lot of hidden history involved here, but perhaps it was once more explicit?  Say, during the EWF?  

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

While I don't exactly disagree with this, it doesn't sit quite right with me.  It is a bit of a sloppy answer, speaking entirely mythologically.  To have dinosaurs slipping haphazardly into various species this way and being fertile? Something is wrong.  Every other species in Glorantha probably has an origin myth and associated deities, why not dinosaurs?

It's a theory shared by some God Learners (GtG 79), and it would explain why some normal dinosaurs are vegetarians, while all original ones are carnivores.

Plus, humanity doesn't have a completely singular origin, with created peoples, divine intermarriage, etc.

I suppose one trick would be to get members of the Jaskali tribes and work out how similar their tongue is to the Kralori language and Auld Wyrmish, as presumably they share origins and are derived from draconic tongues. But that's the sort of thing that makes me a target to the gift carriers.

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57 minutes ago, Darius West said:

While I don't exactly disagree with this, it doesn't sit quite right with me.  It is a bit of a sloppy answer, speaking entirely mythologically.  To have dinosaurs slipping haphazardly into various species this way and being fertile? Something is wrong.  Every other species in Glorantha probably has an origin myth and associated deities, why not dinosaurs?

That's a situation similar to that of humans - there are humans whose ancestors were shaped from clay, there are humans whose ancestors were animal spirits, and there are humans whose ancestors were deities or demigods. Yet they all are considered the same species, and interbreed just fine.

 

57 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So let's consider Maran Gor. She is the Earth Shaker goddess.  She likes these big reptiles that shake the earth as they move, and she has been linked to them religiously. 

Maran had furred and feathered (or at least downy) shaker beasts, too.

Size (and force of the footsteps) is what matters.

 

57 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Now how does that fit with a poor little Maiasaur?  Maiasaurs don't shake the earth when they move, they don't worship bloodthirsty Maran Gor, and are in fact peaceful vegetarian critters, and quite smart. 

They are the trollkin of dinosaurkind, then. But I don't see any scaled or feathered small dinos inhabiting known Glorantha (i.e. the Dragon Pass region). The demibird steeds of the 'newts are the smallest ground-dwelling dino-like critter I know about if you don't count Scout 'newts or their degenerate kin, the magisaurs. (BTW, are the trachodons of the DP boardgame truly dinosaurs, or are they ancient and huge magisaurs?)

Only the dinos who have the size advantage over most of their predators are extant in the known parts of Glorantha. True, there are bound to be small, juvenile specimen of the large ones somewhere, but I don't see evidence for any saurians smaller than a demibird other than the magisaurus crested 'newts.

 

57 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Or pterodactyls? Can't see much connection with earth shaking there either.

The Pteranodons are presented in the Dragon Pass boardgame as an ascended reincarnation of the other types of dino. Basically, a dragon-descended dino can weave a cocoon around itself resembling a dragonewt egg, and emerge from that as a pteranodon. No idea whether there are pteranodons born to pteranodon parents in Dragon Pass - possibly yes.

 

57 minutes ago, Darius West said:

We can be pretty sure that a triceratops can't fertilize a maiasaur's eggs though, even though mythologically, if the species are so very wibbly wobbly, that should be far from impossible, and who knows what the progeny would look like?  So lets rule out this absurdity before dinosaurs become parents of protean broo-like monstrosities.  Clearly dinosaurs have species, and those species can only fertilize others of their own species, like all the other non-Chaotic types of creatures.

The Dragon Pass rules say this about Triceratops:

"The Triceratops resulted from deliberate breeding and mutation of dragonewts and trachodons to form a beast well-suited for combat."

Now the statements in that hoary source needn't be 100% canonical any more, but this indicates that cross-species breeding is possible for dinos, at least inside the dragon dream that also creates/enables the nest cities of the dragonewts and emanates from them.

 

57 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Back to the Earth connection now... In fact we don't know a lot about any connections between Maran Gor and the Dragonewts.

Other than the fact that Shaker's Temple is a functioning entry point into the dragonewt road running across it. This suggests a special arrangement between the temple and the Pass 'newts.

 

57 minutes ago, Darius West said:

We can speculate though. For example, we know of an earth goddess mating with a dragon and producing Hykim and Mikyh.  Did this event even involve Maran Gor ?  Perhaps she hold the clues to this possibly chthonic mystery?  Then again, perhaps she picked up the connection during the EWF or directly after the Dragon Kill when the Pure Horse people came to settle Dragon Pass and the Feathered Horse Queen became tied to the land via rituals with the Inhuman King?  Clearly there is a lot of hidden history involved here, but perhaps it was once more explicit?  Say, during the EWF?  

The EWF only worked because of the shared experiences of the Unity Battle and I Fought We Won which linked all the survivors of the Greater Darkness in Dragon Pass to one another. (The Elder Wilds had a similar but separate all-species bonding, though.)

There was a lot of draconic hybridization going on in the core lands of the EWF (as described in Middle Sea Empire), but I don't think that that was the origin of the dinosaur aberration of the Dragon Pass nest. (Are there any dinos on the Kralorelan islands that hold the dragonewt cities there? I don't think there are.) All other dragonewt nests west of the Shan Shan appear to be descended from the Dragon Pass one, except possibly for the Elder Wilds presence of nomadic 'newts. Both the Ralian and the Ryzel nests were transplanted there in historical times, Ryzel under Palangio in the Bright Empire, Ormsland under the EWF.

(The Ormsland 'newts do seem to have rebirth abilities, even without their own Inhuman King. But that's another mystery.)

There used to be dragonewt nests in Peloria, but those can be explained as resettlement after the Dawn. The prequel to the Dragonkill War eliminated all nests north of the Crossline.

But then, Sandy representing the Solar Emperor as a dragon in The Gods War board-game may explain the gazzam used in Murharzarm's empire via the draconic route, although I like the idea of fluffy proto-birds covered in down shuffling along the Dara Happan river valleys better than the Flintstones meeting Mesopotamia. Anything feathered has some sort of sky connection... 

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54 minutes ago, Joerg said:

They are the trollkin of dinosaurkind, then. But I don't see any scaled or feathered small dinos inhabiting known Glorantha (i.e. the Dragon Pass region). The demibird steeds of the 'newts are the smallest ground-dwelling dino-like critter I know about if you don't count Scout 'newts or their degenerate kin, the magisaurs. (BTW, are the trachodons of the DP boardgame truly dinosaurs, or are they ancient and huge magisaurs?)

Hadrosaurs (including trachodons) are counted as separate from magisaurs in the RQ:G Bestiary. They are somewhat similar though, possessing similar stats to the largest magisaurs, although with the intelligence of the smaller ones. A kind of best of both worlds situation.

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6 hours ago, Darius West said:

While I don't exactly disagree with this, it doesn't sit quite right with me.  It is a bit of a sloppy answer, speaking entirely mythologically.  To have dinosaurs slipping haphazardly into various species this way and being fertile? Something is wrong.  Every other species in Glorantha probably has an origin myth and associated deities, why not dinosaurs?

I am sure that there are different origin stories for the different types of dinosaur. Some may well have multiple origin stories.

The point that I was trying to make, probably clumsily, is that some dinosaurs are broken dragonewts, some descended from Maran Gor and some were, perhaps, draconic mutants.

When a Dragonewt becomes a Triceratops, it might meet another Triceratops, perhaps one descended from Maran Gor. The two might mate and produce offspring that are both descended from Maran Gor and a broken Dragonewt. that might meet a Triceratops that was created as a curse when a wizard shape-changed a rival. They might mate and produce another Triceratops that has even more mixed origins.

My point is that not all dinosaurs are necessarily descended entirely from Maran Gor, or from broken Dragonewts or whatever. They are mixed and have mixed origins.

 

Edited by soltakss
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7 hours ago, soltakss said:

I am sure that there are different origin stories for the different types of dinosaur. Some may well have multiple origin stories.

The point that I was trying to make, probably clumsily, is that some dinosaurs are broken dragonewts, some descended from Maran Gor and some were, perhaps, draconic mutants.

When a Dragonewt becomes a Triceratops, it might meet another Triceratops, perhaps one descended from Maran Gor. The two might mate and produce offspring that are both descended from Maran Gor and a broken Dragonewt. that might meet a Triceratops that was created as a curse when a wizard shape-changed a rival. They might mate and produce another Triceratops that has even more mixed origins.

My point is that not all dinosaurs are necessarily descended entirely from Maran Gor, or from broken Dragonewts or whatever. They are mixed and have mixed origins.

 

I think Darius, and possibly myself, find this multiple origins for same form model to be a bit... unsatisying? Personally, if we are to God-Learner-Monomyth this thing, I'm leading more towards a synthesis, something along the lines of this perhaps: Some dragonewts may have mated with/interacted with Maran Gor (ie. the violent earth) either symbolically or in some sense literally, and either begat or become the dinosaurs we see. Orlanthi see this mainly as a case of divine/cosmological genealogy, Dragonewts see it as a case of mystic devolution affecting their form. A God Learner might say it's a difference in perspective on the same event(s). 

Dunno, this works for me, personally. Mostly. 

Then again, there are some Sky influences with feathered dinos that is a bit difficult to explain, but you could argue that those dinos may have "fallen" by "interacting with" Yelm or Aether or whoever instead. Same deal, different deity. 

EDIT: I accept that the desire to find a single origin to dinos is probably a modern way of thinking, and that the mythic reality of Glorantha is perfectly able to have many origins for same forms coexist. This is just personal preference.

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20 hours ago, soltakss said:

I am sure that there are different origin stories for the different types of dinosaur. Some may well have multiple origin stories.

The point that I was trying to make, probably clumsily, is that some dinosaurs are broken dragonewts, some descended from Maran Gor and some were, perhaps, draconic mutants.

When a Dragonewt becomes a Triceratops, it might meet another Triceratops, perhaps one descended from Maran Gor. The two might mate and produce offspring that are both descended from Maran Gor and a broken Dragonewt. that might meet a Triceratops that was created as a curse when a wizard shape-changed a rival. They might mate and produce another Triceratops that has even more mixed origins.

My point is that not all dinosaurs are necessarily descended entirely from Maran Gor, or from broken Dragonewts or whatever. They are mixed and have mixed origins.

Yeah, but this isn't an answer.  You have left the door open for pretty much all these dinosaurs to breed with each other by thinking that will work.  So you wind up with a Tyrannosaurus with stupid tiny wings to go with the stupid tiny arms, and a dumb head armour.  Or a bronotsaurus that breeds with a dimetrodon and has a huge silly frill on its back so it keeps falling over in a high wind. Or a pteranodon with a dimetrodon so that it has a third goddamn back wing that does nothing. Now you might be happy with a herd of broo-sauruses, but color me unimpressed. Unless there is a mechanism involved in the mythology that separates dinosaurs into discrete species, you have opened a pandora's box of mix and match dinosaurs that are goofy.  It's unavoidable.

If every dragonewt that takes a wrong turn on the path and becomes a dinosaur is equivalent to every other dragonewt, and every presently existing dinosaur made by natural reproduction, and they are all as sexual as Hykim and Hikyh, then what will happen?  Now clearly dragonewt asexuality is a product of their immaturity.  When they step off the path, suddenly they become fertile as they grow up in a way they have never experienced before.  This seems odd, as Maran Gor is black earth, and thus not fertile, so where is the connection again?  Now they aren't chaos, so there should be rules, but from what you are saying, if a dragonewt becomes a triceratops it can mate with a maiasaur in your non-system, and the outcome?  Predictably silly.  And why not?  There is nothing to stop this as they are all technically the same species, just like dogs, only this is worse than chihuahua's mating with great danes.

When a dragonewt becomes a dinosaur it is a spiritual punishment.  Too aggressive?  Allosaur.  Obsessed with magic?  Maiasaur.  Stubborn, stupid and brutish?  Triceratops.  Gluttonous?  Brontosaur.  Aloof or flighty?  Pteranodon etc.  This is also potentially a one-way trip too, as the chances of getting back on to the dragon path are very low without a lot of help.  Now we don't know which Earth Goddess mated with a dragon, but if it was Maran Gor, it made her infertile and a bit crazy with bloodlust subsequently, and it produced Hykim and Mikyh.  If it wasn't Maran Gor, then somehow Maran decided she liked dinosaurs, but let's face it, she has no "Command Dinosaur" spell, just a vague association, that she shakes the earth and so do they.  It's a bit flimsy.  Isn't it odd that Ernalda can control snakes, but Maran Gor can't control dinosaurs.  Big cosmic mystery right there.

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8 minutes ago, Darius West said:

When a dragonewt becomes a dinosaur it is a spiritual punishment.  Too aggressive?  Allosaur.  Obsessed with magic?  Maiasaur.  Stubborn, stupid and brutish?  Triceratops.  Gluttonous?  Brontosaur.  Aloof or flighty?  Pteranodon etc.  This is also potentially a one-way trip too, as the chances of getting back on to the dragon path are very low without a lot of help.

Although Garstal Shavetop mentions in the guide, this theory may not be valid because surely they could commit more than one of these sins and end up as the same kind of hybrid creature you dismissed earlier.

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Just now, Tindalos said:

Although Garstal Shavetop mentions in the guide, this theory may not be valid because surely they could commit more than one of these sins and end up as the same kind of hybrid creature you dismissed earlier.

You make a decent point.  Let me suggest that when these critters die, because they are off the dragonewt path, they keep making mistakes and gradually become more and more like the other reincarnating spirits of the world.  Now we know dragonewts are tied to the dragonewt rune, and that will mean that they aren't subject to the same recycling rules as other spirits.  They get "put in the dragonewt bin, away from general garbage", and get priority rebirth at their egg.  As they leave the path, that connection gets broken, and their runic association fades or collapses slowly from dragonewt to beast, and with it fades their "platinum card privileges".  How many lifetimes does it take?  Who knows?  Perhaps they eventually devolve into snakes, newtlings and rubble runners?  Crucially, what I don't see is dinosaur hybrids cropping up in the rules.  That tells me that they are discrete species.  Hell, even Broos that mate with dinosaurs have a close resemblance to their victim parent, so really there is no excuse for pseudosauruses imo, if only because they won't be viable life forms, but it will be even worse if they actually are.

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

This seems odd, as Maran Gor is black earth, and thus not fertile

IMHO Maran is more complex than this. Arguably modern Maran Gor has become hardened and (largely) infertile, but from what I've seen in the Book of Heortling Mythology and possibly elsewhere, "Gor" is not her only form. She is never seen as virginal (unlike Voria or Babeester). Hell, the killings of the Earthshakers seems to be at least reason for her hardening to begin with.


And, hell, even bare rocks carry moss.

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Aloof or flighty?  Pteranodon

Slight correction on this: in current canon, Pteranadons are the result of dinosaurs who realize their sin and try to atone. They make a cocoon around themselves and emerge sometime later as a Pteranodon, sort of a more dragon-ish dinosaur.

I tend to believe that Dinosaurs are and always have been a draconic species, created by dragons/dragonewts and with no real Earth ancestry. They're sacred to Maran Gor, but she didn't necessarily create them. It's like how sheep and cattle are sacred to Orlanth, or how ravens and wolves are sacred to Humakt - they just like them because they represent similar concepts to the god.

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2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I tend to believe that Dinosaurs are and always have been a draconic species, created by dragons/dragonewts and with no real Earth ancestry. They're sacred to Maran Gor, but she didn't necessarily create them. It's like how sheep and cattle are sacred to Orlanth, or how ravens and wolves are sacred to Humakt - they just like them because they represent similar concepts to the god.

I am willing to bet that there are sheep and cattle who could trace their lineage to Orlanth himself, and that's not meant as a joke about sodomy among the hill barbarians (at least not originally). There are a number of myths in which the otherwise humanoid deities took on beast shape, and in all likelihood mingled with other beasts of that shape and produced offspring. Look at the types of clouds myth which has Orlanth fathering the cloud hawks on Heler (as Tarhelera).

Dragonewt entanglement is one typical cause for dinosaurism, and there is a good chance that Maran could be an attractive entanglement for certain types of 'newts. It is possible that dinosaurism is endemic to the Dragon Pass population, and virtually unknown to the Kralori 'newts. Or to the Teleosan ones.

It is possible that the presence of a strong draconic dream may reduce the dangers of entanglement for the 'newts, which may be why they tolerated the EWF antics for as long as they did. 

According to Sandy Petersen, any dragonewts still in dragonewt shape are the slackers of their species. This is even more true for the victims of dinosaurism.

Dragonewts themselves are the hatchlings from eggs laid by immature dragons (or at least one immature Mother of Many who produced thousands of neotenic offspring). While dragonewts are mostly immortal as long as their egg remains intact, destroying that egg is a way to kill an individual for good, and apparently that happened to thousands of Pelorian 'newts in the build-up to the Dragonkill War. The 'newts in Ralios, the Elder Wilds and Dragon Pass escaped that destruction.

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4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Slight correction on this: in current canon, Pteranadons are the result of dinosaurs who realize their sin and try to atone. They make a cocoon around themselves and emerge sometime later as a Pteranodon, sort of a more dragon-ish dinosaur.

 

So non-dinosaur pteranodons get to be dinosaurs, but fungi don't get to be Darkness plants descended from Flamal. I am disappoint. 

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On 1/12/2020 at 6:11 AM, soltakss said:

My point is that not all dinosaurs are necessarily descended entirely from Maran Gor, or from broken Dragonewts or whatever. They are mixed and have mixed origins.

I doubt that ANY dinosaurs actually come from Maran Gor.

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On 1/11/2020 at 7:03 AM, Joerg said:

That's a situation similar to that of humans - there are humans whose ancestors were shaped from clay, there are humans whose ancestors were animal spirits, and there are humans whose ancestors were deities or demigods. Yet they all are considered the same species, and interbreed just fine.

This seems a telling point; very telling.  Unlike with Earthly origins and evolution, two utterly-different forms of creation can produce the "same" (interbreeding) single species.

I actively like -- and want to keep IMG -- these multiple-origin myths for humanity, as a True thing.

It follows pretty smoothly (IMHO) that dino's can similarly come from multiple sources.

On 1/12/2020 at 8:55 AM, Darius West said:

... You have left the door open for pretty much all these dinosaurs to breed with each other by thinking that will work.  So you wind up with a Tyrannosaurus with stupid tiny wings to go with the stupid tiny arms, and a dumb head armour.  Or a bronotsaurus that breeds with a dimetrodon and has a huge silly frill on its back so it keeps falling over in a high wind. Or a pteranodon with a dimetrodon so that it has a third goddamn back wing that does nothing. Now you might be happy with a herd of broo-sauruses, but color me unimpressed. Unless there is a mechanism involved in the mythology that separates dinosaurs into discrete species, you have opened a pandora's box of mix and match dinosaurs that are goofy.  It's unavoidable ...

I don't think this follows at all.

I have no problem having Triceratops only breed with Triceratops -- even if they have different mythcal origins -- but never Allosaurus.

We need never face an Alloceratops (let alone a Pteralloceratopatodon with a cherry on top).

YGWV

 

 

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7 hours ago, Darius West said:

I doubt that ANY dinosaurs actually come from Maran Gor.

I agree. Just because she likes some of them doesn't necessarily mean that she created them (directly or indirectly). The draconic origin of dinosaurs is complicated enough to have plenty to play with already, and it means we have a different angle (and potentially more interesting) to think about the relationship and interactions between dinosaurs, Dragonewts, and Earth Shaker priestesses.

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I think this could clarify the issue somewhat. From RQG: "Dinosaurs are a neotenic group of species descended from failed dragonewts who became entrapped in material flesh. They are associated with the Earth Rune and are sacred to the Maran Gor cult."

This explicitly says that they're descended from Dragonewts and are only sacred to Maran Gor. There's no mention of decent from MG.

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14 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I think this could clarify the issue somewhat. From RQG: "Dinosaurs are a neotenic group of species descended from failed dragonewts who became entrapped in material flesh. They are associated with the Earth Rune and are sacred to the Maran Gor cult."

This explicitly says that they're descended from Dragonewts and are only sacred to Maran Gor. There's no mention of decent from MG.

Of course there's the alternate theory by the God Learners that they may have interbred with existing ones. (GtG 79)

Unproven, but it opens up possibilities.

Of course, the EWF would have probably claimed both and that the dragonewts failed due to being tempted by the dancing Earth goddess before she became wrathful.

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26 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

the dragonewts failed due to being tempted by the dancing Earth goddess

Best historical explanation of How They Fell I've heard. Everything was going great until they got distracted and their souls swerved into a cycle of overcorrections and perpetual dinosaurism.

Wonder if that darned Soul Arranger played a role. 

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4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Of course, the EWF would have probably claimed both and that the dragonewts failed due to being tempted by the dancing Earth goddess before she became wrathful.

Pretty much what I and Joerg said as well, seems like we're all converging on the same Godlearneresque synthesis here.

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On 1/12/2020 at 4:55 PM, Darius West said:

Yeah, but this isn't an answer.  You have left the door open for pretty much all these dinosaurs to breed with each other by thinking that will work.  So you wind up with a Tyrannosaurus with stupid tiny wings to go with the stupid tiny arms, and a dumb head armour.  Or a bronotsaurus that breeds with a dimetrodon and has a huge silly frill on its back so it keeps falling over in a high wind. Or a pteranodon with a dimetrodon so that it has a third goddamn back wing that does nothing. Now you might be happy with a herd of broo-sauruses, but color me unimpressed. Unless there is a mechanism involved in the mythology that separates dinosaurs into discrete species, you have opened a pandora's box of mix and match dinosaurs that are goofy.  It's unavoidable.

No, for me a brontosaurus can breed with a brontosaurus, a tyrannosaurus with a tyrannosaurus, a pterodactyl with a pterodactyl.

I don't think of "Dinosaurs" as one big species. Each type is its own kind.

What I meant was that a stegosaurus that is created by a Dragonewt mutating because of an out of control Lust Trait can mate with a stegosaurus descended from Maran Gor or a stegosaurus hatched from a bad dragon's egg. A stegosaurus cannot breed with a tyrannosaurus and produce offspring, as they are different species.

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