Sir_Godspeed Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, jajagappa said: They are the same deity (or at least the God Learners would say so), so this works fine. I'm quite aware, but the usage depends on who tells it and to whom it is told. Not everyone is going to be aware of either, or make that connection (the Romans understood Zeus and Jupiter to be the same underlying god more or less, but different audiences probably preferred their respective names most of the time). Dumuzid provided their reasons for using the Pelorian name, ie. a Pelorian-leaning audience, so that's that. Edited April 4, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 Just now, Sir_Godspeed said: I'm quite aware, but the usage depends on who tells it and to whom it is told. Not everyone is going to be aware of either, or make that connection. Dumuzid provided their reasons for using the Pelorian name, so that's that. Quite true. But you will find temples to both Veskarthan and Lodril in Nochet, for instance, so both are known and worshipped in the Holy Country. Lodril is not isolated to Peloria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Godspeed Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 I edited my post above after initially posting it. The main point remains the same, but just mentioning it in case. Just now, jajagappa said: Quite true. But you will find temples to both Veskarthan and Lodril in Nochet, for instance, so both are known and worshipped in the Holy Country. Lodril is not isolated to Peloria. Gonna be honest there, I'm not super-fond of that kind of homogenization (unless it's a historical relic of a Pelorian immigrant community establishing their own temple in competition with more native Caladralander Nochet community), but I don't want to drag this into another needlessly involved forum theomachy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said: I'm not super-fond of that kind of homogenization Well, they aren't the same temple, so not exactly homogenized. But Palangio did get as far as Esrolia, so plenty of Pelorian stuff got brought along very early. But as you note, veering a bit off thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Godspeed Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, jajagappa said: Well, they aren't the same temple, so not exactly homogenized. But Palangio did get as far as Esrolia, so plenty of Pelorian stuff got brought along very early. You make a good point, and in line with my comment above, this feels satisfactory to me. (Not that my opinion is of any particular importance. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeemancer Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 why is the atlas ascosiated with Argan Argar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, coffeemancer said: why is the atlas ascosiated with Argan Argar? @Rick Meints is the reason - AAA is also the acronym for American Automobile Association. They publish(ed) US wide map books. Rick likes subtle jokes 🙂 2 Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted April 4, 2020 Author Share Posted April 4, 2020 1 hour ago, coffeemancer said: why is the atlas ascosiated with Argan Argar? In addition to the joke David Scott just described, Argan Argar devised the written form of Darktongue, the troll language, and his cult guides troll caravans across the surface world. Argan Argar probably invented trollish maps, carved and gnawed onto stone and metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted April 6, 2020 Author Share Posted April 6, 2020 (edited) Pleased to say that my group ran my homemade Wooing of Esrola heroquest this evening, as their community's main quest for Sacred Time of 1626-1627. The participants were my Argan Argar warrior, who is also priest for their community's wyter; the wyter himself; the community's Ernalda priestess; the community's trollkin chief, who became Argan Argar's Black Badge in the Gods Realm; the community's chief Maran Gor initiate; the community's chief Zong hunter, a Shadow Plateau dark troll like my character; and the community's chief green elf who became Flamal in the Gods Realm. It was a deliberately orthodox Other World run of the quest detailed here, in RQ:G, following each of the six stations with the intention of completing them in accordance with the myth. It was our first heroquest since the founding of the community, and we expected some turbulence; we didn't want to make it any more difficult or complicated than the myth already required. The main intervening force in the quest was deliberate interference by Lunar heroquesters. This was an expected threat after the failures of the 1625-1626 rites in Dragon Pass, when Kallyr Starbrow tried and failed to perform the Short Lightbringer's Quest under Lunar interference. Our group facilitated the insertion of several Arkati agents from the House of Black Arkat into the Gods Realm ahead of the Sacred Time rites to ensure our own counter-interference. We definitely encountered one Lunar quester journeying between stations 1 and 2 of the myth, when we encountered Arkat Kingtroll (one of the Arkati) engaged with a silver-masked Yanafal Tarnils. We drove Yanafal into a fissure opened by Maran Gor, and Arkat accompanied us on the rest of the journey, increasing our group to seven. We probably encountered another Lunar quester, or at least a relic of Lunar interference, at station 2: Esrola could not come out to meet us when we arrived in Esrolia, because Lodril had her under guard in their estate, commanded by a Star Captain. Instead of begging Argan Argar's mercy outside her home, Esrola complained to Ernalda (who, as Esrola's sister, was allowed into her confinement) of being kept inside by Lodril to protect her from her other banes, the water dragon and hail demons. Despite the added defense around Esrola the rest of the quest went according to plan. The hail demons were defeated and brought to terms, the dragon was put in a neck-lock of earth and forced to help flood Lodril out of his deep vaults in exchange for its freedom. Argan Argar sent Zong under a veil of shadow to steal Lodril's spear before they confronted him. Argan Argan condemned Lodril to servitude as punishment for confining Esrola against her will, and had him raise the Shadow Plateau and build Esrola's Throne and the Palace of Black Glass. My character closed the final station of the myth, the celebration in the Palace, with a hymn to Xentha, the Night, to bless those gathered in the Palace "and all those under Xentha's sky battling Chaos in this age," as a deliberate measure to boost the parallel quest of the Colymar tribe--while we were performing Wooing of Esrola, Leika Black-Spear was leading her people in Forming of the Storm Tribe, and we'd arranged to support each other back in Storm Season. The effects of the quest were pretty substantial. My character undertook the quest to empower the community's construction efforts, since it's a new community being built over ruins. The quest resulted in a major section of the ruins being magically, instantly rebuilt, more or less according to its original plan but rendered in obsidian. Canals my character pledged to the community's aldryami, and brand new farmsteads promised to its first Sartarite weaponthanes, were also instantly completed and rendered magically fertile. The Ernalda priestess primarily wanted POW gain from all this, and I think she jumped by 5 between the quest itself and her Sacred Time obligations. The community's wyter, which currently takes the form of a huge spider with serpent legs, gained INT and CHA as it remembered more of itself, and established that it's been present at the community's current site since its mythical first founding in the Storm Age. We don't know the exact outcome, but our contributions helped Leika achieve a Special Success despite Lunar meddling on the climactic effort of her Forming of the Storm Tribe attempt. Presumably we'll learn more about that in the next season. The wyter's participation in the quest was crucial. He laid Bless Champion on the whole departing heroquester band, which facilitated fun interactions like my Argan Argari and the Ernalda priestess benefiting from Charisma and Glamour throughout the quest, and managing predictably impressive results when they needed to cajole, persuade or intimidate. Contributions from the community before we entered the Gods Realm allowed the wyter to empower the questers yet still enter the quest fully charged. I'm looking forward to taking him on subsequent quests to power him up more deliberately. Edited April 6, 2020 by dumuzid 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 Argan Argar's high holy days are Waterday and Clayday of Harmony Week in Darkness Season. Holy days are supposed to be associated with particular myths of the god, and I would guess that the Clayday festivities have to do with Esrola. What about Waterday though? Most of the written Argan Argar myth involves Earth and Fire, I'm not aware of any big known Argan Argar myths with Water as their central non-Darkness element. Does anyone have any thoughts about what the Waterday high holy day would pertain to, or insight into sources on relationships between Argan Argar and Water deities I'm unaware of? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 1 hour ago, dumuzid said: Does anyone have any thoughts about what the Waterday high holy day would pertain to, or insight into sources on relationships between Argan Argar and Water deities I'm unaware of? Assuming its associated with Esrola, then perhaps he has to rescue Esrola from where she was drowned beneath the Mirrorsea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 38 minutes ago, jajagappa said: Assuming its associated with Esrola, What if we withhold that assumption? Esrola wasn't Argan Argar's only consort, Ernalda and Asrelia are both closely connected to him as well. As the god of shadows, as Jeff said somewhat upthread, darkness-on-the-surface, I like the duality in Argan Argar having a high holy Earth Night, celebrating his successes in bringing harmony between Darkness and the Surface on land, and a Water Night, celebrating the same successes in relation to the seas and rivers. Someone had to negotiate with the sea gods and merfolk to fix the signs and exchanges that would let Jeset's and Kogag's ships ply the Storm Age seas. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, dumuzid said: a Water Night, celebrating the same successes in relation to the seas and rivers. Someone had to negotiate with the sea gods and merfolk to fix the signs and exchanges that would let Jeset's and Kogag's ships ply the Storm Age seas. Seems reasonable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 2 hours ago, dumuzid said: Does anyone have any thoughts about what the Waterday high holy day would pertain to, or insight into sources on relationships between Argan Argar and Water deities I'm unaware of? To piggyback @jajagappa some of the deep mysteries of this "tide-wracked" realm revolve around the primal marriage of Faralinthor. Argan Argar needs to interrupt that particular happy bond in order to father OOO. It's not hard to construct a central rite that starts with a night of obstacles and thwarted desire (water ascendent) and then at the pivot we encounter the earth, spending much of the second night establishing the new rule, negotiating Husband Protector relationships and all that good stuff. Ideally there's a birth or a revelation to symbolize OOO, even if it's just a black bean in the fish cakes or whatever. Of course this isn't extremely relevant to all the peoples of the Mirrorsea but it might tell us something about the ancient priority of the husbands and how OOO achieves harmony with the water half of the realm as you note. One interesting thing that drops out of this is that the person who kills Faralinthor is usually "Umath" so once again we see an ambivalent doubling, Surface Dark and Primal Storm. Or Umath kills Faralinthor on the first sad night and Argan Argar emerges to console the desolate widow. But all this is probably not the kind of thing the Belintar complex liked to leave around in its original state. 2 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, scott-martin said: But all this is probably not the kind of thing the Belintar complex liked to leave around in its original state. I think that's a particularly important statement. Many of the old myths, even of Argan Argar, will have been modified, obscured, rearranged, or "forgotten" to suit the needs of Belintar. Don't want the OOO to inconveniently return through these stories. What may have been the ancient rites to "marry" Faralinthor or perhaps Engizi (who like any good water deity is both male and female) to support trade, turns into rites of mourning at Faralinthor and Esrola's deaths, then the seeking out of Esrola to guide her back to the world. Might not even have the marriage to Esrola at this point... but have AA serve as a guide/witness to whoever she does marry. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, jajagappa said: Engizi Yeah, the best Belintar-era texts I have from this part of the world glorify sweet little Choralinthor as the favorite child of Esrola and so Engizi's sacrificial rush is what starts repairing the world. AA and his son aren't mentioned. All the people of the Bay love the sea and find their mirror in it. It unifies the realm as an OOO alternative. But I don't know Choralinthor's high holy day offhand or triolini IFWW so can't say. Anyhow I suspect Belintar favored this side of the local mythic landscape for the obvious reasons you point out. 1 1 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 14 minutes ago, scott-martin said: But I don't know Choralinthor's high holy day offhand Waterday of Harmonyweek! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 In contrast to the nuptial character of the Esrola rites, maybe there's an 'adoption of Choralinthor' myth here where Argan Argar proves himself to be a worthy stepfather to Choralinthor? The Mirrorsea is sullen and withdrawn from the land after the tantrums and abuse of Lodril's reign, disrupted by stronger foreign currents and unwilling to trust his mother's new husband. By selectively protecting Choralinthor from some problems and teaching him to overcome others himself, Argan Argar helps Choralinthor grow into a god who can help bridge all the peoples of Kethaela and learns about Water ways in the process. I expect Ezkankekko's Theyalan missionaries had a whole genre of Argan Argar "earnest stepfather wins over recalcitrant stepchild" myths to explain to different peoples how to live with trolls and vice versa, which was deliberately truncated by the several events that shrank the historical Kingdom of Night. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Godspeed Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 53 minutes ago, dumuzid said: I expect Ezkankekko's Theyalan missionaries had a whole genre of Argan Argar "earnest stepfather wins over recalcitrant stepchild" myths to explain to different peoples how to live with trolls and vice versa, which was deliberately truncated by the several events that shrank the historical Kingdom of Night. That's quite possible, and would provide an elegant solution to not only Choralinthor, but the wider network of the Kingdom of Night, especially since RW diplomatic relations were often framed as familial relations (f.ex. Levantine Bronze Age rulers referring to each other as father, uncle, son, etc. in official treaties as a metaphor for their diplomatic relations). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 Argan Argar's rival for the hand of Esrola (Asrelia?) was Veskarthan of the Deep. The establishment of the Shadow Plateau and Obsidian Palace on the stump of Veskarthan's Mountain and the Footprint Myth probably predates the Flood. Faralinthor presumably came with the Flood as part of the Hancheros Sea, but protected Esrola while the two standing waves of the Aroka Sea and the Madadan Sea bracketed the Vingkotling lands. After Orlanth had defeated the standing waves, Faralinthor and his son Choralinthor possibly was protected from Orlanth's reconquista by Esrola's intervention. That didn't help much against the rage of Vadrus, though. Argan Argar was wandering the lands, then, aiding the uz of Halikiv and straying all the way into Peloria (Yolp) and Fronela. If he fought the Flood, we have no stories about that, but those may have come from Halikiv or Yolp or further along the Rockwoods rather than Kethaela. 2 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted April 22, 2020 Author Share Posted April 22, 2020 Is anyone familiar with a location called Morbode to the north of Kethaela in the Darkness? Inhabited by a Chaos entity called Braznofstel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Godspeed Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 I googled a bit around, and someone somewhere said it was mentioned in Tradetalk #4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 29 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said: someone somewhere said it was mentioned in Tradetalk #4? Yes, it is in the article on the Kingdom of Night Pt.1 by Shannon Appel. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted April 23, 2020 Author Share Posted April 23, 2020 37 minutes ago, jajagappa said: Yes, it is in the article on the Kingdom of Night Pt.1 by Shannon Appel. Ah, great, I need to find those articles. There's details in just that paragraph I haven't seen elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumuzid Posted April 25, 2020 Author Share Posted April 25, 2020 I hunted down the Tradetalks in question and they proved quite interesting. Another question: does anyone know of myths establishing the relationship between Xentha and the solar star gods? I've been enduringly curious about the relationship between trolls and the stars. The mistress race can't usually see the stars, but dark trolls with their better-developed eyes can. The stars hung in Xentha's night skies from the start of the Storm Age down through their descent to help the last scattered survivor groups of the Greater Darkness. There at the very nadir of existence just about the last cosmic forces reliably aiding the mortal struggle to survive on the surface were the powers of harmonious Darkness embodied by Ezkankekko and the last flickers of Sky power in the persons of the star captains/khans. Does anyone know of any myths that deal with the relationship between the stars and the night sky? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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