Kasda

[M Helsdon]

Could anyone tell me where this city is? Emperor Anirestyu besieged it.

[metcalph]

In delela according to the FS.  I place it near where the modern capital is. 

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

In delela according to the FS.  I place it near where the modern capital is. 

Yes, I read the description of the ruined relief found in Delela, but I can't quite square that with the description of Anirestyu's rule in Fortunate Succession. 

As this was the time of Arkat's campaign in Ralios, I am wondering if the relief was from elsewhere and was plunder brought back from the wars (seems improbable) or if it is a relic of a Dara Happan/Bright Empire campaign in Ralios - which doesn't seem to fit the text in FS... I may be reading too much into the fact that the illustration is from an Assyrian palace (probably at Nineveh) but usually that sort of art isn't left as a commemoration, but appears as palace wall propaganda.

If it is a commemoration of the Bright Empire campaign against Arkat in Ralios, then Kasda must have been a pro-Arkat city.

[I am attempting to find all the details I can about Arkat in Ralios, and this 'data point' doesn't seem to quite fit the narrative.] 

Edited April 8, 2020 by M Helsdon

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Yes, I read the description of the ruined relief found in Delela, but I can't quite square that with the description of Anirestyu's rule in Fortunate Succession. 

My impression is that because Anirestyu lost the war, historians felt free to libel him.  

Quote

As this was the time of Arkat's campaign in Ralios, I am wondering if the relief was from elsewhere and was plunder brought back from the wars (seems improbable) or if it is a relic of a Dara Happan/Bright Empire campaign in Ralios - which doesn't seem to fit the text in FS...

Except that the Ralians have some memories of the Dara Happan incursion (Arkat the Liberator tract Guide p386).  The tract is a bit confusing because Arkat is called Gbaji and the Liberator is Talor.  

Arkat leaves the Seshnegi and the "king was glad to see him go".  The King is apparently Gerlant Flamesword although this is an anchronism since Gerlant didn't become King until much later.  

Arkat goes to Ralios for nine years where he incites the lords there against the Seshnegi (Likstrandos has eight years between the death of Gachamagacan in Tanisor) and Arkat's death at the hands of Palangio in 418 ST).

Now for the critical passage.

Quote

When Gbaji [Arkat - PHM] was ready, his followers in Ralios urged
the men into war against Seshnela. The kingdom was
hard-pressed to hold its lands. The soldiers were divided
about the war, since the followers of Gbaji were still
active in the kingdom. Thus the war continued for a long
time, and both lands were lessened in the fighting.

And so Ralios was in confusion when the krjalki
entered the land through Kartolin (ruled by a son of
Gbaji). [My emphasis - PHM] The krjalki gathered in secret, and did not wait
long to attack. They razed Srotolin, for with the army
away in Seshnela there were none but women, children,
and old men to defend it, and they did not last long
against the demons. The men were killed, but many
of the women were forced to yield to the caresses of
the krjalki, and so was formed the race of half-demons
which plagued the land for many centuries after. When
the men of Ralios heard this, they retreated and rushed
to defend their homes. Soon fighting broke out between
the city-states, incited by the krjalki and by wolf demons
sent by Gbaji in the shape of men. In Telmoria the cult of
Gbaji had taken over so completely that there was hardly
a person in the land without Chaos blood in him.

Arkat returns with Harmast in 422 ST in Arkhome in Seshnela.

Vangath Hill (in Delela) is fought in 424 ST.

The siege of Kasda is around 425 ST

Arkat is defeated at Kartolin in 428 ST and then considers going through Slontos.

So my interpretation is that the Dara Happa had an army in Ralios after Arkat was killed.  Palangio had been its leader but he was sent away to Slontos.  When Arkat returned and won the battle of Vanganth Hill, Anirestyu led in a new army that besieged Kasda.  Eventually Anirestyu was forced to withdraw before 428 ST (otherwise he would have been cut off at the Battle of Kartolin).  Thereafter he adopted a view that War solves Nothing which governed his actions for the remainder of his reign.  Perhaps like Marshal Petain.

 

Quote

I may be reading too much into the fact that the illustration is from an Assyrian palace (probably at Nineveh) but usually that sort of art isn't left as a commemoration, but appears as palace wall propaganda.

The Glorantha Sourcebook does have reliefs in Boldhome that portray the Lunar Empire similarly.  I think the artistic intent here (in Kasda and Boldhome) is like the Bayeux Tapestry which is mostly about Harold Godwinson rather than William the Conqueror - a mighty person we defeated..

 

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by metcalph

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Could anyone tell me where this city is? Emperor Anirestyu besieged it.

It is variously described as being in Karia and Delela thus it would logically be near the south-eastern border of modern Karia but within modern Delela.  Clearly it is now too ruined to even qualify as a ruin.

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Except that the Ralians have some memories of the Dara Happan incursion (Arkat the Liberator tract Guide p386).  The tract is a bit confusing because Arkat is called Gbaji and the Liberator is Talor.  

This is useful, thank you. 

All the sources seem confused, but there does seem to be a thread there.

[M Helsdon]

At present my section on Arkat's wars in Ralios is:

[This is of course non-canonical. Other sections deal with him in Seshnela, and Talor in Fronela.]

The Coming of Arkat

After cleansing Seshnela and Tanisor of the evil works of Nysalor, the Hero led his army deep into Ralios, where he found that many barbarian nations and non-humans had embraced the evil cult.

Since non-humans were uncommon in Seshnela and Brithos, the invaders called the forces arrayed against them now the League of Monsters, using the word krjalki to describe their nonhuman enemies as a single group. In their ignorance, much of the Western army thought that the krjalki were mutated monsters who had long sold themselves to Chaos.

The elves, who revered Nysalor, and had been allies of the Unity Council since 130 ST, revealed The Light in Darkness, whose worshippers were all women revering the Star Huntress who lived in their forest. A cult of unicorn riding virgins served this goddess[1] and they defended Hrelar Amali against Arkat and his army of sorcerers. He crushed their defenses, razed Hrelar Amali (though the ruins still glow with Ehilm’s light), and scattered the cult. This destruction also broke the power of the Galanini.

Arkat led his forces north and east, and at this time his foes could not rally against him. The Greatwood of the elves was divided in the wars, its trees felled, reducing it to the Ballid in the north and Tarinwood in the south.

By this time, Arkat’s armies still included some Brithini, many Seshnegi, and Orlanthi of the Ralian hill lands. After being crowned King Grimnos had continued to allow his knights and soldiers to follow the Hero.

Despite the forces[2] arrayed against him, Arkat defeated the Dorastoran general Deringogus, routing the Second Dari Alliance and waded through gore until he reached the fortress Kartolin, but was unable to breach its defenses. Then, in 418 ST, Arkat was slain himself by Nysalor’s lieutenant, Palangio the Iron Vrok[3]. The armies of the Bright Empire launched a counter offensive, through Kartolin Pass.

For four years, in his absence, the armies of Nysalor rampaged through Ralios and into Arolanit. Many of the cities in Safelster were barely able to withstand the onslaught and their armies fought many desperate battles.

The Hero Harmast Barefoot[4], one of the Old Ways Orlanthi oppressed by Nysalor’s empire in Dragon Pass, set out on his god’s path and undertook the first human Lightbringers’ Quest, and returned from the Underworld with Arkat, reappearing amidst the rubble of Hrelar Amali in 422 ST.

Harmast spearheaded the Lightning Revolt of the Enerali tribes against the Bright Empire, whilst Arkat rallied his allies in the west.

In 424 ST, the Orlanthi, led by King Alongor Lightning of Surkorion[5] and Harmast, held off the Dorastoran army at Vanganth Hill until Arkat returned with an army of Seshnegi cavalry. The Battle of Vanganth Hill at the confluence of the Doskior and Allspring rivers proved to be a decisive victory, followed by a very effective pursuit. Afterwards most of the Seshnegi departed.

The city of Kasda in Delela was besieged and destroyed by the army of the Bright Empire in 425 ST.

Under the Bright Empire, Chalana Arroy healers were widely distrusted by those who fought against Lokamayadon. The pacifist Chalana Arroy healers opposed Arkat and his rampage of war; Arkat’s Humakti bodyguard Makla Mann ritually murdered a band of them shocking the Hero[6].

Arkat and Harmast showed the Enerali that their High God Humat was not the High Storm Tarumath of the Bright Empire, but Humakt, after Orlanth’s theft of Death. This prevented the cult of Humat from further falling under the influence of the false god of the High Storm.

Arkat and Harmast stayed in Ralios for several years. The old man taught the Ralian Orlanthi the secrets of his Lightbringers’ Quest[7].

Arkat cast aside the tripart triangle of the Invisible God and joined the Orlanthi Cult of Death[8]. Many Westerners were appalled at this, and most of his remaining Seshnelan allies returned to Seshnela despairing at his fall into pagan ways. Arkat lingered in Ralios to learn from Harmast and broke entirely with the Hrestoli Way. These acts endeared him to the people of Ralios.

Under his renewed leadership, one by one the strongholds of the Bright Empire in Ralios fell. Even an elf warlord of Ballid forest led his troops out to aid Arkat the Liberator.

In 428 ST Arkat led his army of Orlanthi and few remaining Seshnegi to Kartolin Pass. In a terrible battle at Kartolin, Arkat was sorely wounded and forced to retreat only to assault and escalade the fortifications again and again trying to force his way through the Pass.

The Hero was now accompanied by twelve Companions, and each of them were served by a band of the Guards of Arkat. All knew Arkat’s secrets and were pledged to his service.

After two more years spent in the fruitless siege and assaults, and after storming the City of Wolves, Arkat left an army before Kartolin and sought a new approach to the strongholds of Nysalor.

In 430 ST, Arkat and his army left Ralios and moved downriver to the sea and went to Slontos, where his foe Palangio was oppressing the people.

Ralios was relatively quiet after that, and for centuries after Arkat returned and organized the Empire of Peace.

 

---

[1] The goddess known as Yelorna. Her cult in Ralios and Saird was shattered and scattered during the victories of Arkat, and the Dark Empire that followed Arkat claimed to have extinguished the Yelornan cult everywhere west of the Rockwoods. Despite his efforts, the cult endured to greet the Sun Dome Templar mercenaries of the EWF in the Second Age.

One text declares that the Sun Women lived among the Enerali before this, though they claimed no descent from Eneral’s four sons. In Ralios she was associated with the Pole Star, and legend claimed that when she returned to the Sky World she found her place had been usurped by another god.

[2] The armies of the Bright Empire included Dara Happan regiments sent by the Emperor Radaidavu and later Emperor Anirestyu. Before ascending the throne as a young man Radaidavu had fought in Ralios; his son, Anirestyu, was not a warrior, but his generals and armies fought Arkat in Ralios.

[3] So named for the flying iron vrok Nysalor had gifted him.

[4] Harmast casts a large figure in Orlanthi histories, but in the West is accounted little more than the outland retainer and companion of Arkat, and then of Talor.

The Orlanthi of Ralios were the first to embrace Harmast as an important figure after his Lightbringers Quest returned from the Underworld with Arkat.

[5] Named for a region of the Western Korioni tribe.

[6] Modern Orlanthi do not believe in ‘bad healers’ and this act seems an atrocity; this was, however, in the context of a war in which Illuminated Orlanthi, Tarumathi, Humakti and Chalana Arroy cultists fought against each other, ignoring cult and cultural restrictions whenever it proved expedient.

[7] Harmast's Lightbrings Quest did not strictly follow Orlanth's path, as he had to fill the gaps in his knowledge with conjecture.

[8] Arkat was first initiated into the cult of Orlanth in 426 ST, after four years of instruction by Harmast. He joined the cult of Humakt later.

The Malkioni say that Humct, whom the Orlanthi call Humakt, was a Western sorcerer who attempted to master the ways of Death.

Edited April 9, 2020 by M Helsdon

[metcalph]

Looks fine to me.  There are differences in names  and differences in emphasis that I would make IF I was writing it which I emphatically am not.

That said:

It's not a given that Anirestyu's siege of Kasda was successful.  The frieze might be an Orlanthi one to commemorate a great victory (or rather avoidance of total destruction) and we only think it's a Dara Happan one because Greg used  a detail from an Assyrian Frieze.  Kasda is a ruin now but we don't know when it was ruined.  By the EWF?  By Unalakez of Halikiv?

Making it an Orlanthi frieze is I think more plausible than making it a Dara Happan frieze because that assumes that the Dara Happans had skilled artists on hand to make the frieze almost immediately only to give up within three years.  

 

[M Helsdon]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Looks fine to me.  There are differences in names  and differences in emphasis that I would make IF I was writing it which I emphatically am not.

That said:

It's not a given that Anirestyu's siege of Kasda was successful.  The frieze might be an Orlanthi one to commemorate a great victory (or rather avoidance of total destruction) and we only think it's a Dara Happan one because Greg used  a detail from an Assyrian Frieze.  Kasda is a ruin now but we don't know when it was ruined.  By the EWF?  By Unalakez of Halikiv?

Making it an Orlanthi frieze is I think more plausible than making it a Dara Happan frieze because that assumes that the Dara Happans had skilled artists on hand to make the frieze almost immediately only to give up within three years.  

 

Hmm, will think on that.

Writing about Ralios in the First Age is tricky, because probably the Galanini, Enerali, and Orlanthi were not mutually exclusive groups by the time Arkat arrived. I suspect the Galanini were the Enerali elite, and that many Enerali 'became' Orlanthi.

There's a surfeit of riches for First Age Ralios; the Second, even with the wars between Seshnela and the Autarchy, is fairly slim in detail, so far as I can tell. 

[metcalph]

23 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Writing about Ralios in the First Age is tricky, because probably the Galanini, Enerali, and Orlanthi were not mutually exclusive groups by the time Arkat arrived. I suspect the Galanini were the Enerali elite, and that many Enerali 'became' Orlanthi.

My own opinion on that matter is that the Galanin/Enerali had been Orlanthi since the Storm Age - they were Malkioni Slaves of Nida (and possibly the Vadeli) who were freed by Orlanthi heroes.  People worshipping Galin may have had horse-changing magics but I don't think they were Hsunchen and the one passage in King of Sartar that does mention that the Malkioni called them Hsunchen calls it fallacious.

I believe the magic of Galin were the lost attributes of Hippogriff (Fangs, Claws, Wings) rather than the ability to take the form of a horse.  There were two sorts of cultists - one that cast the Galni magics on their steads (to get man-eating horses, winged horses or horses with that extra kick) or those that cast the Galin magics on themselves.  There are magicians who try to achieve the hippogriff form but they end up being stuch in doonkey form*.  I think most worshippers of Galin (and I am including the Horse Society of Seshnela here) here cast the magic on their horses and only a few wierdos cast it on themselves.  

23 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

There's a surfeit of riches for First Age Ralios; the Second, even with the wars between Seshnela and the Autarchy, is fairly slim in detail, so far as I can tell. 

A tantalizing source is Troll Gods which has tantalizing details in the Arkat cult writeup of the Outer Atomic Explorers using the Astelkel Horse to destroy the pathways to reach Arkat.  

*I'm basically riffing of the Golden Ass in which the protagonist casts a spell to become a bird and ends up in Donkey form.  The point of becoming a transformed hippogriff would be to fly into the Sky World etc.

Edited April 9, 2020 by metcalph
Added footnote

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

At present my section on Arkat's wars in Ralios is:

[mainly snipped]

This reads like an Arkat-friendly source.

"evil cult"

I would ask for a text written from the Dorastan perspective. This is propaganda of the victors disguised as history.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Arkat led his forces north and east, and at this time his foes could not rally against him. The Greatwood of the elves was divided in the wars, its trees felled, reducing it to the Ballid in the north and Tarinwood in the south.

Safelster has never been all forested, and neither the Tanier Valley. At best, this area would have been a savannah (like ancient Prax).

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

For four years, in his absence, the armies of Nysalor rampaged through Ralios and into Arolanit. Many of the cities in Safelster were barely able to withstand the onslaught and their armies fought many desperate battles.

"After the forces of the council had sent the leader of the godless rebels into his well-earned hell, for four years they campaigned to reclaim lost lands, sending a few punitive expeditions against the western atheists."

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

[3] So named for the flying iron vrok Nysalor had gifted him.

History of the Heortling Peoples p.97 disagrees with that statement. Apparently Palangio spent four years after his victory over Arkat to enter Erenplose, and after he finally succeeded, he went high into the (presumably Mislari, possibly Nidan) mountains and returns with the Iron Vrok.

 

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The Hero was now accompanied by twelve Companions, and each of them were served by a band of the Guards of Arkat. All knew Arkat’s secrets and were pledged to his service.

The text in the Troll Gods Jonstown Compendium excerpt about his ritual of Rebirth talks about six companions undergoing the treatment with Arkat.

 

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

My own opinion on that matter is that the Galanin/Enerali had been Orlanthi since the Storm Age - they were Malkioni Slaves of Nida (and possibly the Vadeli) who were freed by Orlanthi heroes.  People worshipping Galin may have had horse-changing magics but I don't think they were Hsunchen and the one passage in King of Sartar that does mention that the Malkioni called them Hsunchen calls it fallacious.

I believe that the Enerali were not Hsunchen, but grouped as such by the Seshnegi. Perhaps one or two lineages had Hsunchen abilities.

My perspective on them is based on the two First Age documents that are available, and one indicates that one group backed the Storm God and the other the Sun God.

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

I believe the magic of Galin were the lost attributes of Hippogriff (Fangs, Claws, Wings) rather than the ability to take the form of a horse.  There were two sorts of cultists - one that cast the Galni magics on their steads (to get man-eating horses, winged horses or horses with that extra kick) or those that cast the Galin magics on themselves.  There are magicians who try to achieve the hippogriff form but they end up being stuch in doonkey form*.  I think most worshippers of Galin (and I am including the Horse Society of Seshnela here) here cast the magic on their horses and only a few wierdos cast it on themselves.  

A tantalizing source is Troll Gods which has tantalizing details in the Arkat cult writeup of the Outer Atomic Explorers using the Astelkel Horse to destroy the pathways to reach Arkat.  

I will have to take a look at Troll Gods.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

I would ask for a text written from the Dorastan perspective. This is propaganda of the victors disguised as history.

You are free to write one, but this is from a document covering the West, not Peloria.

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

"evil cult"

I would ask for a text written from the Dorastan perspective. This is propaganda of the victors disguised as history.

Most people would consider the people of Dorastor as belonging to evil cults themselves.

Just because someone is the victor doesn't automatically make them wrong, despite what historians are trained to believe (Well, maybe not, trained to think about other possibilities perhaps).

[M Helsdon]

It is also known that Arkat fought, defeated, and skinned the Crimson Bat. Possibly in Ralios?

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

and skinned the Crimson Bat

Bet there are folk in the Lunar Empire who would like to get those relics! (Unless Ralzakark has already cornered the market on them)

[Mirza]

On 4/9/2020 at 3:53 AM, M Helsdon said:

they defended Hrelar Amali against Arkat and his army of sorcerers. He crushed their defenses, razed Hrelar Amali (though the ruins still glow with Ehilm’s light), and scattered the cult. This destruction also broke the power of the Galanini.

Hrelar Amali was already destroyed by the Silver Empire of Seshnela in 285 ST, the Yelornans were guarding the ruins to prevent further razing by what probably looked like the Silver Empire resurgent again. Also I disagree with the phrasing "broke the power of the Galanini", that makes it seem so permanent, when actually they've waxed and waned in power, even as recently as 1400 dominating Safelster as the lead city of the Estali League. Maybe it's intended as propagandizing if it's an in-universe document, but I dunno, it seems like it's written after the fact, and the Galanini would have been a part of the Stygian Empire by this time, also it clashes a bit with the Galanini being a part of the Arkati, which they frankly are.

On 4/9/2020 at 3:53 AM, M Helsdon said:

Arkat and Harmast showed the Enerali that their High God Humat was not the High Storm Tarumath of the Bright Empire, but Humakt, after Orlanth’s theft of Death. This prevented the cult of Humat from further falling under the influence of the false god of the High Storm.

Not sure why this is needed, seems to confuse things, as by this time the Enerali/Galanini have known Humat as Orlanth for centuries (180 ST). The Orlanthi Enerali probably just as  readily resisted Lokamayadon as any other group of Orlanthi, again the Theyalan colonists had been there for centuries at this point, and the Vustri and Korioni tribes of Storm Enerali have long since Orlanthized to the point where I think there's much less difference by the time of the Gbaji Wars between the Orlanthi Enerali and the Theyalan Orlanthi colonists culturally as there once was.

On 4/9/2020 at 3:53 AM, M Helsdon said:

One text declares that the Sun Women lived among the Enerali before this, though they claimed no descent from Eneral’s four sons. In Ralios she was associated with the Pole Star, and legend claimed that when she returned to the Sky World she found her place had been usurped by another god.

Got a source for this one Martin? I'm well aware of the rest of the history of the Yelornans, but I've never read this bit before. Or is it something that you're cooking up for the book? If it's your own, personally my thoughts on the Yelornans is that they were the hardliners that bought deep into the Bright Empire, the outlier edge of the Galanini, and not representative of the whole, since later the Galanini became a part of the Arkati.

On 4/9/2020 at 3:53 AM, M Helsdon said:

The Malkioni say that Humct, whom the Orlanthi call Humakt, was a Western sorcerer who attempted to master the ways of Death.

Is there a source for this bit as well? This really doesn't mesh with what we know of the Malkioni point of view, they know that the gods exist, they know their names, the Malkioni just don't think they're worth worshiping (save for henotheist sects) (Or that's at least what your local Zzaburi wants you to think as per other discussions on the forums on Malkioni polytheism). It reads as the old Catholic Hrestoli lore risen from the grave it should have stayed in.

23 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Writing about Ralios in the First Age is tricky, because probably the Galanini, Enerali, and Orlanthi were not mutually exclusive groups by the time Arkat arrived. I suspect the Galanini were the Enerali elite, and that many Enerali 'became' Orlanthi.

The Enerali encompasses all the horse people of Ralios descended from Eneral, then the Galanini are the Solar tribes of the Enerali (pg 373 of the Guide), the Utoni and the Fornaoli, pure enough to contact Ehilm, and their descendants continue to be Solar even now. The Storm Enerali were over the course of the couple of centuries of receiving missionaries from the Theyalans Orlanthized, eventually by the Third Age there isn't much difference at all between the Storm Enerali, and the Theyalan Orlanthi, but during the Gbaji Wars I think that difference hadn't quite disappeared yet. Also there are just Theyalan Orlanthi colonists in Ralios, and had been for a couple centuries at that point.

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

My own opinion on that matter is that the Galanin/Enerali had been Orlanthi since the Storm Age - they were Malkioni Slaves of Nida (and possibly the Vadeli) who were freed by Orlanthi heroes.  People worshipping Galin may have had horse-changing magics but I don't think they were Hsunchen and the one passage in King of Sartar that does mention that the Malkioni called them Hsunchen calls it fallacious.

16 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I believe that the Enerali were not Hsunchen, but grouped as such by the Seshnegi. Perhaps one or two lineages had Hsunchen abilities.

My perspective on them is based on the two First Age documents that are available, and one indicates that one group backed the Storm God and the other the Sun God.

My thoughts tend towards them being Horse Hykimi that simply stopped being Hykimi. During the very late Golden Age, the Enerali shifted from hunter gatherers to pastoralists, and with it lost the ability to shapeshift into horses for the most part. From there the Enerali I think went on to create a civilization that at least for the Solar Enerali seems to have followed the same Pure Horse ritual purity as the Pure Horse Peoples, and maintained it, allowing them to contact Ehilm at the Dawn. There certainly was contact with the Kachisti, the speaking people of Law from Danmalastan, but I'm inclined to place this well after the pastoralist shift in Enerali society that separated the Enerali from the Hykimi.

Basically just treating the Enerali foundation myth as being essentially true, but with a small twist on the idea of "Eneral, the First Man".

Edited April 10, 2020 by Mirza

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

Hrelar Amali was already destroyed by the Silver Empire of Seshnela in 285 ST, the Yelornans were guarding the ruins to prevent further razing by what probably looked like the Silver Empire resurgent again.

It was rebuilt.

Arkat then destroyed it again.

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

Not sure why this is needed, seems to confuse things, as by this time the Enerali/Galanini have known Humat as Orlanth for centuries (180 ST). The Orlanthi Enerali probably just as  readily resisted Lokamayadon as any other group of Orlanthi, again the Theyalan colonists had been there for centuries at this point, and the Vustri and Korioni tribes of Storm Enerali have long since Orlanthized to the point where I think there's much less difference by the time of the Gbaji Wars between the Orlanthi Enerali and the Theyalan Orlanthi colonists culturally as there once was. 

Some of the Enerali fought for, and some against, the Bright Empire. Bear in mind that Lokamayadon then subverted many 'Orlanthi' to worship his High Storm.

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

Got a source for this one Martin? I'm well aware of the rest of the history of the Yelornans, but I've never read this bit before. Or is it something that you're cooking up for the book? If it's your own, personally my thoughts on the Yelornans is that they were the hardliners that bought deep into the Bright Empire, the outlier edge of the Galanini, and not representative of the whole, since later the Galanini became a part of the Arkati.

An old post on an email group by Jeff or Greg.

The Galanini/Enerali seem to have been split between those who bought into the Bright Empire, and some that did not.

The Galanini seem to have been nobles rather than specific tribes.

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

Is there a source for this bit as well? This really doesn't mesh with what we know of the Malkioni point of view, they know that the gods exist, they know their names, the Malkioni just don't think they're worth worshiping (save for henotheist sects) (Or that's at least what your local Zzaburi wants you to think as per other discussions on the forums on Malkioni polytheism). It reads as the old Catholic Hrestoli lore risen from the grave it should have stayed in.

The Prosopaedia in the Gods of Glorantha boxed set presents the fundamentalist Malkioni definition.

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

The Enerali encompasses all the horse people of Ralios descended from Eneral, then the Galanini are the Solar tribes of the Enerali (pg 373 of the Guide), the Utoni and the Fornaoli, pure enough to contact Ehilm, and their descendants continue to be Solar even now. The Storm Enerali were over the course of the couple of centuries of receiving missionaries from the Theyalans Orlanthized, eventually by the Third Age there isn't much difference at all between the Storm Enerali, and the Theyalan Orlanthi, but during the Gbaji Wars I think that difference hadn't quite disappeared yet. Also there are just Theyalan Orlanthi colonists in Ralios, and had been for a couple centuries at that point.

I know.

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

My thoughts tend towards them being Horse Hykimi that simply stopped being Hykimi. During the very late Golden Age, the Enerali shifted from hunter gatherers to pastoralists, and with it lost the ability to shapeshift into horses for the most part. From there the Enerali I think went on to create a civilization that at least for the Solar Enerali seems to have followed the same Pure Horse ritual purity as the Pure Horse Peoples, and maintained it, allowing them to contact Ehilm at the Dawn. There certainly was contact with the Kachisti, the speaking people of Law from Danmalastan, but I'm inclined to place this well after the pastoralist shift in Enerali society that separated the Enerali from the Hykimi.

Information online about the Enerali suggests they weren't Hsunchen.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/the-enerali-circa-130-st/

Unfortunately the other document appears to be no longer available.

I should also note that whilst I am using as much canonical material as possible, my work does not define canon. There is, however, an awful lot of wriggle room and contradictions in First Age material, as there should be, as in 'modern' Glorantha it is more than a thousand years ago, and with several big disasters since then, sources in-world are probably hopelessly suspect. However, I would note that in Arkat and Nysalor's wars, it is unlikely that everyone of a particular tribe or kingdom was actually on the same side, or agreed on the definition of their gods.

Edited April 10, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

Pendali, Enerali and Enjoreli are three "Hykimi" nations that had cities, agriculture, yet still a strong beast totem connection, and at least the Pendali had shape-changers in their ranks (possibly a pure nobility - though not the royal lineage - untainted by the lures of the earth goddesses). The situation with the bull peoples of Fronela is very unclear with regard to whether they were hunter-gatherers following the herds (i.e. Hsunchen), pastoralists analogous to the Bison Riders of Prax, or agriculturalists cum pastoralists (as the Bisosae appear to have been, or to have become).

A holy caste of nomadic horse riders led by queens is possible, though they are as likely to be tribute-taking horse pastoralists as they are to be tribute-taking hunter gatherers. The later Galanini might have been re-invigorated by contact with the Grazer group that disappeared beyond Esrolia.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Pendali, Enerali and Enjoreli are three "Hykimi" nations that had cities, agriculture, yet still a strong beast totem connection, and at least the Pendali had shape-changers in their ranks (possibly a pure nobility - though not the royal lineage - untainted by the lures of the earth goddesses). 

At the Dawn they were hunter-gatherers, though the Enerali, possibly because of their association with the elves, probably had limited horticulture which is why they revered Flamal.

Don't know about the Enjoreli.

The Pendali tribe were descended from the sons of Pendal, and as his wife was a daughter of Seshna they were 'tainted' by an earth goddess.

Eneral was the son of Galanin the Sun Horse and a daughter of the Land Goddess Ralia, so also 'tainted'.

Enjoreli - unknown.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

A holy caste of nomadic horse riders led by queens is possible, though they are as likely to be tribute-taking horse pastoralists as they are to be tribute-taking hunter gatherers. The later Galanini might have been re-invigorated by contact with the Grazer group that disappeared beyond Esrolia.

Before the Theyalans arrived to teach the Enerali about agriculture, there were no farmers to give up tribute in the region. The Enerali lived off the marshes around the lakes, and annually ate horse flesh in a sacred rite.

The Pendali, Enerali, and the Enjoreli were poor desperate survivors of the Darkness; better off than many, but none had cities (at most they had hill-forts) or agriculture. The Hsunchen who shared their territories were much worse off.

Edited April 11, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

At the Dawn they were hunter-gatherers, though the Enerali, possibly because of their association with the elves, probably had limited horticulture which is why they revered Flamal.

At the onset of the Grey Age/Silver Age, they appear to have been hunter-gatherers or (possibly nmadic, low maintenance) horticulturalists. I believe that fire farming is a wide-spread Hsunchen (and Doraddi) technology to aid them in their hunting and gathering, and minimal nomadic horticulture may be unavoidable when gathering wild grains. Especially if these grains have divinely granted nutrition value to spare even before human horticulturalists start selectively breeding it for high nutritional value.

 

Quote

Don't know about the Enjoreli.

Neither do I, all I have seen on them is in the Guide. The Broken Council Guidebook whose authors drew on unpublished manuscripts doesn't go into detail about the bull people of the Janubian lands and surroundings, either. The best mention is the Battle of Eleven Beasts.

Everything else is speculation. About 25 years ago, there was some speculation about Urlanthi, early pastoralists emerging from hunter-gatherer populations mingling with lesser gods and demigods descending from the Spike.

 

Quote

The Pendali tribe were descended from the sons of Pendal, and as his wife was a daughter of Seshna they were 'tainted' by an earth goddess.

Not quite correct. The ruling family of the Pendali was descended from the sons of Pendal, and possibly a good number of the nobility, but the majority of the lion people may very well have been Basmoli without any ancestry from Seshna to start with. Pendal was a Silver Age character. Unless only descendants of Pendal were allowed to father children, there is no possibility that all Basmoli would be descended from Pendal.

When and how the Basmoli became dominant in Seshnela isn't clear. There seems to be an older chthonic culture there, possibly human, possibly non-human. If human, that culture would likely have been horticulturalists similar to the Tada-shi, and may have accepted the Basmoli as their rulers and protectors. I don't see how two generations of descent from Ifftala (Ifttala?), the daughter of Seshna and ancestress of the Pendali nobility, would lead to a hunter-gatherer culture constructing cities that the Malkioni of Seshneg would seamlessly integrate into their own culture in the century after the dawn.

 

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Eneral was the son of Galanin the Sun Horse and a daughter of the Land Goddess Ralia, so also 'tainted'.

Yes. The parallel is undeniable.

 

Quote

Enjoreli - unknown.

We know that they are related to the Tawari who are encountered as Hykimi or Serpent Beast Brotherhood people by the Second Council and/or the Bright Empire.

King Dromal and his boar companion suggest some sort of chthonic civilization in Fronela possibly preceding the Kachisti dominion over the lands on both sides of the (then still very low) Nidan Mountains, possibly immigrating only after the Vadeli ended that dominion, as a refugee from the expansion of Endernef into Zerendel.

I like the theory of Dromal and Dronar being brothers, sons to Kala, a land goddess of Brithela. One of the brothers leads the rest of the indigenous chthonic population into the caste system of the Kingdom of Logic established by Malkion the Founder, the other emigrates to Fronela and creates a chthonic proto-urban society there. The Enjoreli may have adopted their sedentary and most likely agricultural ways either from a chthonic King Dromal and his proto-urban society, or otherwise from the dronars in the Kachisti ranks. (A similar origin of the chthonic horticulturalists or agriculturalists among the Enerali and Pendali is possible, too.)

Everything points to a founder by the name of Enjorel who either is born from or married to a land goddess of Fronela.

But all of that is speculation, which means you are right - the Enjoreli origin is unknown.

 

Quote

Before the Theyalans arrived to teach the Enerali about agriculture, there were no farmers to give up tribute in the region. The Enerali lived off the marshes around the lakes, and annually ate horse flesh in a sacred rite.

Do we know that for sure?

I agree that plowing with horses is extremely unlikely. And while I postulate Kachisti ancestors for the vast majority of the Hykimi of the Great Forest and its outskirts who survive the Greater Darkness, that doesn't mean that those ancestors would have kept practicing the agriculture (or whatever means of primary production the Dronar caste of Brithela practiced) after the Vadeli destroyed their dominion. Still, some carry-over from the Kingdom of Logic or its predecessors via the Kachisti is possible, and may have been re-cultivated in the Silver Age as King Dan restored some measure of civilization around Hrelar Amali. The Enerali were the rulers of the land, but the presence of the Ancient Beasts Society in southwestern Safelster suggests that the Safelstrans have their share in other ancestry as well.

 

Quote

The Pendali, Enerali, and the Enjoreli were poor desperate survivors of the Darkness; better off than many, but none had cities (at most they had hill-forts) or agriculture. The Hsunchen who shared their territories were much worse off.

So were the Malkioni of Frowal and Neleoswal, and in Arolanit.

For all of these, the Darkness ended with the Gray Age - they did not need any Theyalan Awakeners to get out of the slump of Greater Darkness trauma. Instead, the leadership of the Pendali, Enerali and presumable Enjoreli restarted human civilisation already in the Gray Age.

In Frowal, Froalar and his family led the Malkioni out of the Greater Darkness. The disease Xemela fought may have occurred in the Gray Age rather than the Greater Darkness. But all the now western countries emerged from the Greater Darkness before the Dawn, as far as I know.

 

[M Helsdon]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

At the onset of the Grey Age/Silver Age, they appear to have been hunter-gatherers or (possibly nmadic, low maintenance) horticulturalists. I believe that fire farming is a wide-spread Hsunchen (and Doraddi) technology to aid them in their hunting and gathering, and minimal nomadic horticulture may be unavoidable when gathering wild grains. Especially if these grains have divinely granted nutrition value to spare even before human horticulturalists start selectively breeding it for high nutritional value.

I suspect that Hsunchen would view fire-fallow cultivation as an abuse of the Earth. The Enerali are not Hsunchen, but I have encountered indications that they did not farm until the Theyalan missionaries introduced it. They wouldn't adopt Seshnegi methods as they were the enemy from the Dawn, if not before.

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Not quite correct. The ruling family of the Pendali was descended from the sons of Pendal, and possibly a good number of the nobility, but the majority of the lion people may very well have been Basmoli without any ancestry from Seshna to start with. Pendal was a Silver Age character. Unless only descendants of Pendal were allowed to father children, there is no possibility that all Basmoli would be descended from Pendal.

Tribal ancestors are never the only ancestors, but in these cultures the culture-ancestor is predominant, and Hrestol killed or injured their culture-mother to harm them.

For that matter, if the Seshnegi hadn't gone totally native and their Talar hadn't married into the Land Goddess' family, the West would have looked very different - no expansion into the hinterland, no Silver Empire aiding the northern survivors.

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

When and how the Basmoli became dominant in Seshnela isn't clear. There seems to be an older chthonic culture there, possibly human, possibly non-human. If human, that culture would likely have been horticulturalists similar to the Tada-shi, and may have accepted the Basmoli as their rulers and protectors. I don't see how two generations of descent from Ifftala (Ifttala?), the daughter of Seshna and ancestress of the Pendali nobility, would lead to a hunter-gatherer culture constructing cities that the Malkioni of Seshneg would seamlessly integrate into their own culture in the century after the dawn.

Here I have to strongly disagree. The Seshnegi were heirs to large walled cities, even if their ancestors were Brithini exiles. At the Dawn they were living in these walled enclaves, mostly ruined. The Pendali were living in what were scattered villages - not heirs to a civilisation, in that the term derives from living in cities. When they were ultimately assimilated, those who weren't killed or driven off, they would have been Workers, in as much as the Malkioni had castes at that time.

For both, a community of a thousand was probably very unusual, and at that population you can't retain much knowledge or technology. The Malkioni might have had a very few genuine talari, holari and maybe a couple of zzaburi, but not many.

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

King Dromal and his boar companion suggest some sort of chthonic civilization in Fronela possibly preceding the Kachisti dominion over the lands on both sides of the (then still very low) Nidan Mountains, possibly immigrating only after the Vadeli ended that dominion, as a refugee from the expansion of Endernef into Zerendel.

I like the theory of Dromal and Dronar being brothers, sons to Kala, a land goddess of Brithela. One of the brothers leads the rest of the indigenous chthonic population into the caste system of the Kingdom of Logic established by Malkion the Founder, the other emigrates to Fronela and creates a chthonic proto-urban society there. The Enjoreli may have adopted their sedentary and most likely agricultural ways either from a chthonic King Dromal and his proto-urban society, or otherwise from the dronars in the Kachisti ranks. (A similar origin of the chthonic horticulturalists or agriculturalists among the Enerali and Pendali is possible, too.)

Afraid I find it almost impossible to tangle a historical narrative out of Western God Time myths. It is (intentionally) contradictory.

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

For all of these, the Darkness ended with the Gray Age - they did not need any Theyalan Awakeners to get out of the slump of Greater Darkness trauma. Instead, the leadership of the Pendali, Enerali and presumable Enjoreli restarted human civilisation already in the Gray Age.

They were all heirs to wrecked cultures, living in abject poverty, much like the survivors in the Malkioni enclaves, with a population size too low to maintain any sophistication. The Theyalans were much better off than, for example, the Enerali, and their initial contacts seem to have driven the development of farming, a major population growth and political organization. They might have got there on their own, but the Malkioni and Theyalans gave them no time to do so, and at first the Theyalans weren't competitors and enemies like the Seshnegi. At the Dawn and in the following century, these people were poor, had little or no metalworking, and no big urban centers.

The Malkioni probably retained metalworking, and almost certainly writing, and the agricultural methods of Brithos but they were dirt poor.

24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In Frowal, Froalar and his family led the Malkioni out of the Greater Darkness. The disease Xemela fought may have occurred in the Gray Age rather than the Greater Darkness. But all the now western countries emerged from the Greater Darkness before the Dawn, as far as I know.

Continuity and sequence before Time is tricky.

The Westerners who emerged were probably barbarians themselves, in the eyes of the Brithini and themselves. The majority of the Western enclaves probably didn't survive, and even the ones that did, up in the north had a hard time until the Silver Empire arrived with reinforcements. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect that Hsunchen would view fire-fallow cultivation as an abuse of the Earth.

If you are talking about clearing the earth for planting stuff, yes.

But no, fire farming is how the Australian immigrants shaped the outback for at least 50,000 years. And they are generally assumed to be quite in tune with their land. It has nothing to do with agriculture or horticulture. It has everything to do with creating fresh green for herbivorous prey.

Fire farming appears to have been used in England prior to the immigration of the first Neolithic farmers, for instance.

It might have been a necessary technology inside the Greatwood to maintain a sustainable population of sizable prey (roe deer and upward) and for it to move outside the impenetrable growth of the aldryami forests.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Enerali are not Hsunchen, but I have encountered indications that they did not farm until the Theyalan missionaries introduced it.

Other than their horses, what indications for pastoralism may have been there? One thing that all "hill barbarians" or storm people have in common is pastoralism and some dairy economy.

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

They wouldn't adopt Seshnegi methods as they were the enemy from the Dawn, if not before.

Seshnegi in the sense of Brithini exiles? Probably not. Hypothetical Seshnegi as in a prior, earth worshiping human population which adopted the Pendali as protectors? Possibly. If those may have had Kachisti ancestry? Maybe in that case, too.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Tribal ancestors are never the only ancestors, but in these cultures the culture-ancestor is predominant, and Hrestol killed or injured their culture-mother to harm them.

Hrestol's murder of the ancestress of the Pendali kings definitely harmed any claim they had to the sovereignty over the land. It is true, without Froalar getting the greater land goddess Seshna on his side, even with the weakening Hrestol had inflicted on the Pendali, the war would have taken a lot longer, and might still have had the opposite outcome.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Here I have to strongly disagree. The Seshnegi were heirs to large walled cities, even if their ancestors were Brithini exiles.

The Malkioni at the Dawn had only very few coastal cities with walls to that standard - Neleoswal and Frowal, possibly Laurmal, and some of the Arolanit cities. The lesser cities away from the coast were hardly worth the title city, IMO. At least not by the standards of the original colonies.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

At the Dawn they were living in these walled enclaves, mostly ruined. The Pendali were living in what were scattered villages - not heirs to a civilisation, in that the term derives from living in cities. When they were ultimately assimilated, those who weren't killed or driven off, they would have been Workers, in as much as the Malkioni had castes at that time.

Those Pendali villages were cities the same size as most of the original cities of the Malkioni in the Silver Empire. Places like Damolsket are clearly autochthonous cities, yet they become Malkioni citiies effectively by conquest or capitulation, no major building efforts that we know of.

I know that Greg paddled back a lot from his earlier history of the Pendali, but that was more back-paddling than the history of the place warrants, IMO. But then, the keepers of canon probably will side with you on this issue.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

For both, a community of a thousand was probably very unusual, and at that population you can't retain much knowledge or technology. The Malkioni might have had a very few genuine talari, holari and maybe a couple of zzaburi, but not many.

Frowal might have surpassed the 1000 slightly, Neleoswal may have been struggling with that, but both cities had countryside settlements to bolster those numbers - settlements in all likelihood non-existent at the end of the Greater Darkness and the transition into the quasi-time of the Gray Age.

Not that the westerners didn't have sort of a quasi-Time earlier. Zzabur had a time-keeping device already during Godtime.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

They were all heirs to wrecked cultures, living in abject poverty, much like the survivors in the Malkioni enclaves, with a population size too low to maintain any sophistication. The Theyalans were much better off than, for example, the Enerali, and their initial contacts seem to have driven the development of farming, a major population growth and political organization.

The Heortlings had more survival centers than the Enerali, and probably closer together and at least in sum more populous. Whether they were any wealthier or more sophisticated during the Silver Age I cannot say. They did come into conflict with Nochet already in the later parts of King Heort's reign.

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

They might have got there on their own, but the Malkioni and Theyalans gave them no time to do so, and at first the Theyalans weren't competitors and enemies like the Seshnegi. At the Dawn and in the following century, these people were poor, had little or no metalworking, and no big urban centers.

Theyalan magic was superior to the native Enerali magic, as in receiving better magic from the gods. Some of the gods received an upgrade by identifying them with Orlanthi deities.

Their agriculture may have been superior to the non-plowing agriculture any civilization without bovine draft beasts can achieve. But what importance does cattle have in Ralios, and which Dawn Age groups would have had any?

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Continuity and sequence before Time is tricky.

True for the Gods Age up to the Greater Darkness, but less true for the Silver or Grey Age.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Westerners who emerged were probably barbarians themselves, in the eyes of the Brithini and themselves. The majority of the Western enclaves probably didn't survive, and even the ones that did, up in the north had a hard time until the Silver Empire arrived with reinforcements. 

The northern enclaves profited from the revelations of Hrestol at least as much as did Seshnela. The Akem states appear to have gone into survival without any pagan goddess of the land holding their hands. By the time the Seshnegi had become the Silver Empire, they had largely overcome their attachment to the Temple of Seshna, too.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Places like Damolsket are clearly autochthonous cities

Just sort of bobbing along on this thread (great observations throughout but no time) . . . this one is worth teasing out in a little more detail because the House of Damol with its pagan divine lineage is really interesting.

If I could have just one document right now it would be an even quasi-canonical list of the colonies extant at the Dawn. We could conspire to build one. Ironically we know more about the pagan landscape now than we do about the enclaves, especially in the northwest. 
 

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

If you are talking about clearing the earth for planting stuff, yes.

But no, fire farming is how the Australian immigrants shaped the outback for at least 50,000 years. And they are generally assumed to be quite in tune with their land. It has nothing to do with agriculture or horticulture. It has everything to do with creating fresh green for herbivorous prey.

Fire farming appears to have been used in England prior to the immigration of the first Neolithic farmers, for instance.

It might have been a necessary technology inside the Greatwood to maintain a sustainable population of sizable prey (roe deer and upward) and for it to move outside the impenetrable growth of the aldryami forests.

Yes, I know the history of fire farming. And, no I don't believe it is applicable.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Other than their horses, what indications for pastoralism may have been there? One thing that all "hill barbarians" or storm people have in common is pastoralism and some dairy economy.

According to the sources there were wild and semi-wild horse herds in the lands around Felster.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Malkioni at the Dawn had only very few coastal cities with walls to that standard - Neleoswal and Frowal, possibly Laurmal, and some of the Arolanit cities. The lesser cities away from the coast were hardly worth the title city, IMO. At least not by the standards of the original colonies.

So far as I am aware, the few cities with surviving populations were on or very near the coast.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those Pendali villages were cities the same size as most of the original cities of the Malkioni in the Silver Empire. Places like Damolsket are clearly autochthonous cities, yet they become Malkioni citiies effectively by conquest or capitulation, no major building efforts that we know of.

I very much doubt it.

Damolsket was founded by the Malkioni in Jrustela.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Heortlings had more survival centers than the Enerali, and probably closer together and at least in sum more populous. Whether they were any wealthier or more sophisticated during the Silver Age I cannot say. They did come into conflict with Nochet already in the later parts of King Heort's reign.

The effect of the Lightbringer missionaries indicates a much richer culture.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Their agriculture may have been superior to the non-plowing agriculture any civilization without bovine draft beasts can achieve. But what importance does cattle have in Ralios, and which Dawn Age groups would have had any?

There were cattle Hsunchen in Ralios - the Bemuri. They became Orlanthi Barntar worshippers.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The northern enclaves profited from the revelations of Hrestol at least as much as did Seshnela. The Akem states appear to have gone into survival without any pagan goddess of the land holding their hands. By the time the Seshnegi had become the Silver Empire, they had largely overcome their attachment to the Temple of Seshna, too.

The northern colonies were in a bad way before the Seshnegi arrived.

[Joerg]

 

55 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

So far as I am aware, the few cities with surviving populations were on or very near the coast.

As far as I can tell all cities ending on -al were Malkioni at the Dawn. They may have been badly depleted in terms of population, but they were targeted by the Pendali in the war.

 

55 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Damolsket was founded by the Malkioni in Jrustela.

You're right - I was thinking about Damolsten.

55 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The effect of the Lightbringer missionaries indicates a much richer culture.

The Lightbringer missionaries came from the former Vingkotling, now Heortling tribes, and their allies. The temple city of Ezel may have been involved, but I doubt that Nochet contributed much after the incident between Desaventus son of Heort and the lovers of Imajarin over the (apparently consented) abduction of Ondurisa. The very stunt that ended the life of Sarotar 1500 years later.

Korolstead looks like it would have been the royal stead under King Heort's successors, and probably was the main seat of roving King Heort.

 

I think that the Lightbringer missionaries who arrived in Ralios were not Dorastans (who in turn were Heortlings who just chanced upon the remnants of the Feldichi culture, and somehow transformed from former Vingkotling cattle raiders and plunderers into a sophisticated urban society in less than two generations), but folk from Kerofinela, Kethaela and the Elder Wilds. Not from Saird, which was in a sorry state thanks to the Shadzorings of Alkoth and the horse warlords.

Alternatively, the descendants of Lighbringers who had come to the tribes of Maniria and Slontos took up the duty of their parents and went onward to new, still benighted neighbors further west and north.

The Enerali of Tanisor and Safelster and the Slontans all suffered from the hegemony of the Pralori, and one of the boons the Lightbringers brought was magic to counter the Serpent Brotherhood shamans of the Pralori.

(This sort of makes me wonder whether one weapon in the arsenal of the Serpent Brotherhood shamans may have been spirits or ghosts of Kachisti disembodied by the Vadeli in their uprising. That would make for another way of cultural influence....)

 

 

 

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

There were cattle Hsunchen in Ralios - the Bemuri. They became Orlanthi Barntar worshippers.

And there was cattle in Tanisor, too, or water buffalos. The question is whether the Enerali used them for plowing.

Somehow, Tanisor and Safelster are a rice-growing civilization. I would expect that to have been inherited from a local chthonic culture, which may have been assimilated by the Hrelar Amali culture of King Dan. The practice may have had regressed to a cult secret that had to be re-discovered from walking with the goddesses, as I doubt that the Greater Darkness gave much opportunity to practice rice farming. From all accounts, it looks unlikely that Brithela was a rice-growing civilization, and neither Arolanit nor Akem look like they had rice.

The colonial fad for Kralori and Eest during the Middle Sea Empire may have brought in new varieties of rice along with their goddesses, but I don't think that it started the rice growing activities in Safelster.

 

55 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The northern colonies were in a bad way before the Seshnegi arrived.

All Malkioni colonies prior to the Abiding Book experienced cycles of glory and of abject survival in the face of external foes, it seems. The end of the Serpent King dynasty brought about another dangerous struggle with the remaining unconquered Pendali and their Serpent Brotherhood and Enerali allies.

Brithos did not lend a helping hand before the expedition to save Arolanit from the (not-so) Bright Empire allies of Tanisor. Other than that intervention, all that Brithos did was send out waves of dissidents as Zzabur purged another aspect of his followers.