Divine Magic in BRP

[jean]

The divine magic system in basic magic has a number of advantages

+there is a distinction between ritual magic and non ritual magic (resurrect for example is a ceremony ritual)

+there is a sacrifice to learn divine magic spells

+gods have powers they master enough that they are available to initiates and they have powers they don't master so well and therefore are only available to priests (sever spirit is reusable for Humakt and one use for Zorack Zoran)

It is true that the recovery rate of the spells is too slow

In a typical BRP fight (duration less than 50 rounds) all spent power points spent and all cast divine magic spells are efectively one use

The flaw I see (and maybe I agree with Rosen Mc Stern) is that the recovery rate of divine magic is too slow, it takes days while recovering power points takes only hours.

I think that the idea in the MRQ book "guilds factions and cults" is a good one.

My only difference would be to keep the casting chance of a non ritual divine magic spell at 100% and to use theology to relearn the spells

Cheers

Jean

[dragonewt]

The flaw I see (and maybe I agree with Rosen Mc Stern) is that the recovery rate of divine magic is too slow, it takes days while recovering power points takes only hours.

In a simulations world, natural selection would completely undermine Divine magic with such a slow recovery time. The cost to benefit ratio is not good.

Some unique effects are provided, however in general, the return on investment seems low.

So I did what most people seem to do, and speed up the recovery time.

What is the 'cost' of one permanent point of POW, compared to the day it takes to recover, when a priest can recover at least 18 or so temporary POW (Magic Points) in the same day.

Someone is being ripped off.

[sdavies2720]

Someone is being ripped off.

Clearly the deities are purchasing the spells, repackaging for their followers, and keeping the power difference to support their own extravagant lifestyles.

[dragonewt]

Clearly the deities are purchasing the spells, repackaging for their followers, and keeping the power difference to support their own extravagant lifestyles.

I would say that we have the Orlanthi pantheon to thank for leading the cost cutting initiative using divine visualization by introducing Cloud Communing.

Speaking of the airy disk Array, I am going to lose SAN points for that one...

[threedeesix]

I'm puzzled by this. Divine Magic in RQII/III is one of the best magic systems in any game system ever published: you actually sacrifice part of your soul (ie. POW) in exchange for magical powers, and it's represented and supported by the mechanics of the system. What's not to love about that?

For minor powers, I'd just revert to the gift/geas style of the RQ deity writeups.

Sorry, I totally missed this thread or I would have commented sooner. I just wanted to say that Classic Fantasy will be using the sacrifice a point of permanent POW to acquire new cleric spells. I have always loved the system for the same reasons mentioned by RMS above. I feel it is well balanced by the fact that a cleric can cast the spell with a 100% chance of success where a mage must begin at INTx1% and build it up from there.

In Classic Fantasy there are no one use cleric spells, once the POW has been sacrificed the cleric may cast the spell as often as the magic points hold out.

There are a few powerful new spells that require the sacrifice of permanent POW just to cast, these would be spells like Finger of Death that will kill an opponent outright, and Wish that will permanently alter reality in some form.

To me and my group, just because a system has not been used in any recent publications doesn't change the fact that it is a good rule, it just hasn't been used in any recent publication. After all, the Superworld rules wasnt used in a new publication of BRP for a really long time, but they're back.

Rod

Edit: I just wanted to point out that I have been writing Classic Fantasy for so long now that terms like cleric and magic point have become ingraned in my head. Sorry.

Edited September 10, 2009 by threedeesix

[RosenMcStern]

In Classic Fantasy there are no one use cleric spells, once the POW has been sacrificed the cleric may cast the spell as often as the magic points hold out.

...

To me and my group, just because a system has not been used in any recent publications doesn't change the fact that it is a good rule, it just hasn't been used in any recent publication.

This is not the system that I criticised, Rod. The old system prescribed: Sacrifice one POW, get ONE USE of a spell. This was houseruled away in countless fanzines, and abandoned in the unpublished RQ4.

Your system is more similar to the current MRQ model for divine magic: you sacrifice POW, you gain reusable spells. The only difference, if I understand correctly, is that your cleric spells cost PP to cast, whereas MRQ spells (Cults version) require a Pact roll to be able to cast them again during the same adventure.

[RMS]

This is not the system that I criticised, Rod. The old system prescribed: Sacrifice one POW, get ONE USE of a spell. This was houseruled away in countless fanzines, and abandoned in the unpublished RQ4.

To be fair, that was only true of Initiates. Priests (and Runelords in RQIII) have always had reusable divine spells. I'd assume from the use of the word "Cleric" we're talking about the equivalent of a priest in old RQ.

[rust]

I am currently working on the magic system for the divine and scholarly

magic of my Malita renaissance setting, and it seems that I have chosen

a somewhat unusual approach:

- each spell requires some ritual or ceremony and several items specific to

that spell (bell, book and candle ...),

- most magic is rather weak and unimpressive, truly powerful magic requires

a very long preparation time and very unusual items (for example a bone of

St Skeleton ...),

- the spellcaster needs a certain Allegiance score - amount as yet undeter-

mined, but probably 50 - to be attuned to his deity / philosophy well enough

to be able to cast any spells at all,

- the spellcaster has to succeed with a Knowledge skill roll (theology for di-

vine spellcasters, to determine how to fit the magic into their religion's dog-

ma, and a similar philosophy roll for the scholars),

- there is "dark" (destructive, etc.) and "light" (healing, etc.) magic, and a

magic user has to choose a side, but the intention of the magic use (smite

those unbelievers ...) can enable a spellcaster to use a spell of the "other"

type,

- an obvious misuse (smite that grumpy patriarch of the own church...) re-

sults in the permanent loss of all spellcasting ability,

- all magic only creates events that could just as well occur naturally (e.g.

an earthquake), be based upon psychology (e.g. an illusion or a mental ill-

ness) or otherwise have naturals causes (it was the mushroom dish, not a

spell ...).

[threedeesix]

This is not the system that I criticised, Rod. The old system prescribed: Sacrifice one POW, get ONE USE of a spell. This was houseruled away in countless fanzines, and abandoned in the unpublished RQ4.

Sorry, I realized that after I went back and re-read the original posts but couldn't get back on until now.

Your system is more similar to the current MRQ model for divine magic: you sacrifice POW, you gain reusable spells. The only difference, if I understand correctly, is that your cleric spells cost PP to cast, whereas MRQ spells (Cults version) require a Pact roll to be able to cast them again during the same adventure.

Yah, I have clerics sacrifice to get the spell, then they can cast them with magic points (pp), I'm not familiar with the Pact method as while I did pick up MRQ it was way back during the BRP playtest and that kept me too busy to really read it. Pretty pictures though.

PS - I want to playtest BRP Mecha

Rod

[threedeesix]

To be fair, that was only true of Initiates. Priests (and Runelords in RQIII) have always had reusable divine spells. I'd assume from the use of the word "Cleric" we're talking about the equivalent of a priest in old RQ.

Yeah, as Classic Fantasy is pretty much a way to play D&D with a much better system, priest became cleric to better bring back that nostalgic feel. As a matter of fact lots of terminology has changed for the same reason.

For example...

Allegiance: Alignment

Appearance: Charisma

Power Point: Magic Point

Sorcerer: Magic-User

1st Level: Grilled Cheese Sandwich

10th Level: Grilled Cheese Sandwich with Tomato Soup

[Blackwolf79]

Yeah, as Classic Fantasy is pretty much a way to play D&D with a much better system, priest became cleric to better bring back that nostalgic feel. As a matter of fact lots of terminology has changed for the same reason.

For example...

Allegiance: Alignment

Appearance: Charisma

Power Point: Magic Point

Sorcerer: Magic-User

1st Level: Grilled Cheese Sandwich

10th Level: Grilled Cheese Sandwich with Tomato Soup

20th level: Steak

[SDLeary]

To be fair, that was only true of Initiates. Priests (and Runelords in RQIII) have always had reusable divine spells. I'd assume from the use of the word "Cleric" we're talking about the equivalent of a priest in old RQ.

Reusable, yes, but only after a trip back to a holy site to pray. Priests and Runelords simply did not have to sacrifice again. This is one of the reasons that "Cult Magic" (spirit/battle magic) was also used by cults.

SDLeary

Edited September 11, 2009 by SDLeary

[deleriad]

I think the confusion is that Divine Magic was, effectively, one-use per episode for runelords/priests. Irrelevant if you've an episodic campaign because you simply assume that the worshipper goes back to church between adventures.

The house ruling issue was always over initiates. You had to have 10 points of stored magic (IIRC) which meant that to become a priest you basically had to be an initiate who never actually cast divine magic. Assuming that you wanted to play a character who worked up to priest-hood - maybe over 5 years of game time - you ended up with a magic system that the PCs had to sacrifice for but never actually used. Something distinctly lacking in MGF. That's why most worshippers in RQ never actually cast divine magic.

The pact system in MRQ has made Divine Magic episodic for initiates and acolytes (on the whole) and in-episode for lords/priests. It is also now in tension with MP using magic systems so if you commit to Divine Magic you're weaker at MP using magic.

[jean]

I think the confusion is that Divine Magic was, effectively, one-use per episode for runelords/priests. Irrelevant if you've an episodic campaign because you simply assume that the worshipper goes back to church between adventures.

The house ruling issue was always over initiates. You had to have 10 points of stored magic (IIRC) which meant that to become a priest you basically had to be an initiate who never actually cast divine magic. Assuming that you wanted to play a character who worked up to priest-hood - maybe over 5 years of game time - you ended up with a magic system that the PCs had to sacrifice for but never actually used. Something distinctly lacking in MGF. That's why most worshippers in RQ never actually cast divine magic.

The easy fix is to replace the requirement to have 10 points of stored divine magic to become a priest for a requirement to have learned 10 points of divine magic (ie to have sacrificed 10 POW points to the god) to become a priest

[SDLeary]

Yeah, as Classic Fantasy is pretty much a way to play D&D with a much better system, priest became cleric to better bring back that nostalgic feel. As a matter of fact lots of terminology has changed for the same reason.

For example...

Allegiance: Alignment

Appearance: Charisma

Power Point: Magic Point

Sorcerer: Magic-User

1st Level: Grilled Cheese Sandwich

10th Level: Grilled Cheese Sandwich with Tomato Soup

Silly question. How are you going to use Alignment here? It would seem to me that you could keep Allegiance, and have them devoted to a particular deity, their alignment determining that of the character.

If you kept it as Allegiance, little twists could be introduced that test the characters Allegiance to the deity, which it seems to me that Alignment would preclude or make harder.

SDLeary

[jean]

In a simulations world, natural selection would completely undermine Divine magic with such a slow recovery time. The cost to benefit ratio is not good.

Some unique effects are provided, however in general, the return on investment seems low.

So I did what most people seem to do, and speed up the recovery time.

What is the 'cost' of one permanent point of POW, compared to the day it takes to recover, when a priest can recover at least 18 or so temporary POW (Magic Points) in the same day.

Someone is being ripped off.

Well divine magic is still very interesting

In the example of Rosen McStern of detect ennemy versus find ennemy, the divine magic spell lasts 15 min (3 times the duration of the spirit magic spell) and covers a 100 m radius area (4 times the area covered by the magic spell).

For one POW, we have the effect of 12 power points .

Heal Wounds is a life saving spell, and for serious wounds much better than heal.

The only spell that is less interesting is Dismiss Magic, mainly because dispelled sorcery spells or spirit magic spell can be cast again easily.

It is not a total rip off, but it is true that divine magic spell could be rlearned faster (and I agree with Rosen McStern on this point)

Jean

[soltakss]

I think the confusion is that Divine Magic was, effectively, one-use per episode for runelords/priests. Irrelevant if you've an episodic campaign because you simply assume that the worshipper goes back to church between adventures.

Perhaps, unless you had access to a temple within an episode.

The house ruling issue was always over initiates.

I've never houseruled this and don't really accept the reasoning, but that's another discussion.

You had to have 10 points of stored magic (IIRC) which meant that to become a priest you basically had to be an initiate who never actually cast divine magic.

Some people claimed that. I always found that I cast one-use Divine Magic if I needed to stay alive, faced a dangerous foe, needed to help someone else or had a general pressing need.

My initiates never hoarded Divine Magic, simply because it was so useful to be cast. Also, I found that the skill requirements outweighed the Divine magic requirements every time. With a POW Gain Roll every scenario, almost guaranteed, my initiates would make a POW Gain roll every 3 or 4 scenarios and generally spent it on Divine Magic. In fact, keeping POW fairly low meant that the POW Gain chance went up and the POW gained also increased.

Assuming that you wanted to play a character who worked up to priest-hood - maybe over 5 years of game time - you ended up with a magic system that the PCs had to sacrifice for but never actually used. Something distinctly lacking in MGF. That's why most worshippers in RQ never actually cast divine magic.

Acolytes had access to reusable magic and didn't need the 10 points of Divine Magic, at least in our games. But, we found that it was beneficial to reach 10 points of magic and then continue to sacrifice. That meant that using the one-use magic store magic wasn't that crippling and also meant that you kept a lot of magic when you gained Priesthood.

The pact system in MRQ has made Divine Magic episodic for initiates and acolytes (on the whole) and in-episode for lords/priests. It is also now in tension with MP using magic systems so if you commit to Divine Magic you're weaker at MP using magic.

Which is, possibly, OK. It gives Initiates acces to magic without relying on Rune Magic which means that the Theist/Animist distinction can be made clearer, I suppose. I prefer using both Rune and Divine magic, but in certain settings (Stupor Mundi/Merrie England for example) this won't happen.

[threedeesix]

Silly question. How are you going to use Alignment here? It would seem to me that you could keep Allegiance, and have them devoted to a particular deity, their alignment determining that of the character.

If you kept it as Allegiance, little twists could be introduced that test the characters Allegiance to the deity, which it seems to me that Alignment would preclude or make harder.

SDLeary

Yeah, I use the BRP Allegiance system in full, just renamed alignment for the before mentioned reasons. But, the allegiances are towards good, neutral and evil, and everyone, not just clerics, must be allied towards one of the three. In the case of the cleric, each deity has an alignment of either good, neutral, or evil as well. A cleric must keep their alignment true to that of the deity they worship or be stripped of their "powers". Although, there are rules for repenting as well.

[SDLeary]

Yeah, I use the BRP Allegiance system in full, just renamed alignment for the before mentioned reasons. But, the allegiances are towards good, neutral and evil, and everyone, not just clerics, must be allied towards one of the three. In the case of the cleric, each deity has an alignment of either good, neutral, or evil as well. A cleric must keep their alignment true to that of the deity they worship or be stripped of their "powers". Although, there are rules for repenting as well.

OK, that sounds cool. Are their any requirements embedded in this for the use of Divine Magic, or is it just enough to have been "accepted" by the god? Percentage thresholds or actual rolls to be "accepted"?

SDLeary

[RosenMcStern]

Acolytes had access to reusable magic and didn't need the 10 points of Divine Magic, at least in our games.

Sadly, only in your games. Gods of Glorantha stated that the only difference was that cults admit many more acolytes than priests or Rune Lords. The real difference between the two is political power (and getting all the tithing from the initiates).

Which is, possibly, OK. It gives Initiates acces to magic without relying on Rune Magic which means that the Theist/Animist distinction can be made clearer, I suppose. I prefer using both Rune and Divine magic, but in certain settings (Stupor Mundi/Merrie England for example) this won't happen.

And who told you this? There is plenty of sources for Rune Magic in Europe during the 12th and 13th century, it is just not connected to anything "official" in these two settings. The local witch of many villages surely knows, and teaches, Rune Spells (see "The Hounds of Adranos"). It is just a matter of wanting to learn them. You know, Torquemada could disagree if you are discovered.

Moerover, I see it as being more of a matter of Monotheist / Polytheist than theist/animist for Alternate Earth.

In Stupor Mundi 2, on the other hand, you will find plenty of deities granting rune magic. Guess what magic does Perkunas grant...

Edited September 11, 2009 by RosenMcStern

[RMS]

Reusable, yes, but only after a trip back to a holy site to pray. Priests and Runelords simply did not have to sacrifice again. This is one of the reasons that "Cult Magic" (spirit/battle magic) was also used by cults.

SDLeary

True, but a good priest shouldn't have to travel too far.

Sanctify and Worship FTW! Seriously, those are some of the first spells my PC's always picked up...after getting some others under their belt. They don't work so well with every god, but a man of Orlanth really only has to find a windy hilltop somewhere to be good to go...

[threedeesix]

OK, that sounds cool. Are their any requirements embedded in this for the use of Divine Magic, or is it just enough to have been "accepted" by the god? Percentage thresholds or actual rolls to be "accepted"?

SDLeary

No. In the same way that to cast Magic spells one has to be a mage, to cast cleric spells one only has to be a cleric. However, to acquire new cleric spells requires a ritual roll and a good roll can result in a common cleric spell being granted for no POW sacrifice, while more powerful spells can be granted at a reduced cost.

There are rules for becoming a cleric in play, but they are simply a variation of the rules for Becoming a Magician in play as noted on page 93 of Basic Role Playing.

It should be noted that in addition to new Magic spells, there are the cleric spells, and druid and illusionist spells as well. They all use the Magic system and in a non-Classic Fantasy campaign, they are simply new Magic spells. However for Classic Fantasy, they are seperated into four classes, and there are little variations that change how each class of caster uses magic.

Rod

Edited September 11, 2009 by threedeesix

[soltakss]

And who told you this? There is plenty of sources for Rune Magic in Europe during the 12th and 13th century, it is just not connected to anything "official" in these two settings. The local witch of many villages surely knows, and teaches, Rune Spells (see "The Hounds of Adranos"). It is just a matter of wanting to learn them. You know, Torquemada could disagree if you are discovered.

Moerover, I see it as being more of a matter of Monotheist / Polytheist than theist/animist for Alternate Earth.

In Stupor Mundi 2, on the other hand, you will find plenty of deities granting rune magic. Guess what magic does Perkunas grant...

Ah, so it's just the Christian Saint cults that are hamstrung by not having Rune Magic. It makes sense for medieval Rus to have both magic and I suppose it makes sense for some pagans as well.

Consider me corrected.

[RosenMcStern]

I think we should post the Divine Magic rules that are in Merrie England and Crusaders of the Amber Coast as a SRD for "Divine Magic in Alternate Middle Ages". But this only after Merrie England is out, which means not sooner than November.

Note that I consider pagan magic as being more akin to spirit magic than to Monotheist magic. Viking magic contained elements of shamanism, for instance. And Celtic Druids were certainly priests, but I think their magic works differently than the miracles made by Christian clergymen. I am rewriting the rules for baltic magic now, hopefully for the last time, basing them on these assumptions.

[soltakss]

I think we should post the Divine Magic rules that are in Merrie England and Crusaders of the Amber Coast as a SRD for "Divine Magic in Alternate Middle Ages". But this only after Merrie England is out, which means not sooner than November.

That sounds like a good idea. We could update the SRD as other things are published to include things such as Summoning and Enchanting. That would make it a full medieval magic SRD.