Valind's followers/attendants

[Sir_Godspeed]

From what I recall, Valind's followers as mentioned are mainly Ice trolls (by way of his alliance with Himile?) and some kind of frost giant. But he does have humanoid warriors, too? Are these mortals, or more like the demigods/lesser divines found somewhere like in Orlanth's hall? 

Part of what made me wonder about this was how Valind, unlike most deities, seem to be associated with one terrestrial area (the Glacier/north in general) as opposed to the more otherworldly domains of gods like Orlanth and so on. Don't get me wrong, I know there are hundreds of hills and mountains associated with Orlanth, but the contact with him there depends on ritual times and other factors, whereas the Glacier is sorta... always there? 

Admittedly, the easiest answer would be just to say that the Glacier is kind of a Gods Plane/Hero Plane domain the further north you go, or in certain spots, so it's not like you have roving bands of Valindings about in a mundane sense. 

[dumuzid]

I've been thinking a little about Valind's Glacier lately, because I've been thinking plenty about the Sea of Fire at the other end of the lozenge.  Pamalt, the ruling god of the Sea of Fire (as far as I know), made his Agi to populate the far south in spite of the heat.  Given the other ways these realms seem to mirror each other, a race of ice immortals like human-scale hollri, created to people and defend the glacial lands before the trolls arrived, doesn't seem so far-fetched.

6 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

the Glacier is kind of a Gods Plane/Hero Plane domain the further north you go

This is my feeling--and another way I think Valind's Glacier mirrors the Sea of Fire.  Sail far enough into the Sea and there's not even steaming water under your vessel, just an Otherworld of fire; given the way the Glacier also extends beyond the Lozenge and into Sramak, I would guess it functions the same way.

[jajagappa]

12 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

From what I recall, Valind's followers as mentioned are mainly Ice trolls (by way of his alliance with Himile?) and some kind of frost giant. But he does have humanoid warriors, too? Are these mortals, or more like the demigods/lesser divines found somewhere like in Orlanth's hall? 

Valind's reach extends well beyond the Glacier, so yes there are mortal human followers of Valind.  You'll certainly find them in the hills of Talastar, Brolia, and likely Charg.  (I believe his cult will appear in the Gods book.)

Now, if you mean human mortals on the Glacier, that's likely different.  There it would be mostly:  Ice trolls, Hollri (the ice creatures of Himile), and hrimthur (aka frost giants).  Given the great expanse of the Glacier, I'd expect demigods and other children of Valind as well.

[Sir_Godspeed]

35 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Now, if you mean human mortals on the Glacier, that's likely different.  There it would be mostly:  Ice trolls, Hollri (the ice creatures of Himile), and hrimthur (aka frost giants).  Given the great expanse of the Glacier, I'd expect demigods and other children of Valind as well.

Ah, I must've conflated the forest giants and hollri, forgot they were separate.

[Joerg]

Valind is about as localized as Lodril or Heler.

As Lodril in the sense that the Glacier is the manifestation of Valind's power on the surface world, just like Lodril's (local) mountain (or open pit lava bed) is the (local) representation of the Volcano god, with lesser volcanoes designated his sons.

As localized as Heler as in wherever it snows, there is Valind. He appears to be an ally of Inora, the goddess of mountaintop glaciers and hoar frost, as one's presence enables the other.

 

I don't recall having seen speculations on Valind's mother. Two possible candidates would be deities often perceived in a male role: Heler, and Himile, as Valind is the god of cold precipitation.

As snow is a transformation of rain, a parent-child relationship between Heler and Valind makes some mythological sense, and there is lots of precedence of Vadrus getting it on with Water entities or Heler. Iphara is the daughter of the hardly consensual mating between Vadrus and the Blue Woman liberated from Enkoshons, so that occasion is not what brought Vadrus to the world, but there are other meetings between Vadrus and Heler where the Storm Bruiser beat up Heler and possibly enacted his male superiority on the loser. Alongside that keet sage, Vadrus is one of the candidates who are blamed for Heler's inability to return to the Seas.

Himile is more of a shot into the dark. There is a natural affinity of Himile's Hollri ice demons and Valind's get of the Frost Giants, and Thryk the Winter Giant could be either. 

It doesn't have to be Himile himself - Inora appears to be a daughter of Himile (and Kero Fin) and might be Valind's mother.

But then, deities aren't limited to a single moment of birth (and thereby a single "biological" mother), so there may be more than one mother. Other than some inherited trait, the mothers of the children of Vadrus rarely play a role.

[Loïc]

I'm running The Coming Storm HQ campaign, and one of my players chose the "full text writing creation" and created a valindir... Indeed, such a character isn't thought highly of in Red Cow Clan, and when the Great Winter will come, he certainly will have big problems (a lynch mob...). Then, his background is also certainly the most creative of all the party: he's some kind of a village idiot (a handsome and strong one, but yes, a village idiot) in Red Cow Fort, a stickpicker, and there was some really good prophecy dedicated to Valind in his background, with strong links with the clan and the other players... We discussed it, and considered Valind (at least an aspect of Valind) as a primordial force of nature, destructive and indispensable in Orlanth's society. In the cycle of seasons, after all, winter and the winds of Valind are useful, for without them, there should be no renewal of life... So is his character: there is no matter of good nor evil, he's like a child, with all his innocent cruelty and destructive drive.

Of course it isn't "canonical", but players' creativity and commitment should always be encouraged and rewarded...

[Leingod]

6 minutes ago, Loïc said:

I'm running The Coming Storm HQ campaign, and one of my players chose the "full text writing creation" and created a valindir... Indeed, such a character isn't thought highly of in Red Cow Clan, and when the Great Winter will come, he certainly will have big problems (a lynch mob...). Then, his background is also certainly the most creative of all the party: he's some kind of a village idiot (a handsome and strong one, but yes, a village idiot) in Red Cow Fort, a stickpicker, and there was some really good prophecy dedicated to Valind in his background, with strong links with the clan and the other players... We discussed it, and considered Valind (at least an aspect of Valind) as a primordial force of nature, destructive and indispensable in Orlanth's society. In the cycle of seasons, after all, winter and the winds of Valind are useful, for without them, there should be no renewal of life... So is his character: there is no matter of good nor evil, he's like a child, with all his innocent cruelty and destructive drive.

Of course it isn't "canonical", but players' creativity and commitment should always be encouraged and rewarded...

It's funny, that kind of reminds me of how the old Hero Wars and Sartar Rising stuff portrayed Valind and his place in the Great Winter. In Storm Tribe, Valind's write-up states that the Heortlings see him as the "bad child" of the Thunder Brothers; he's that annoying punk no one likes (apparently "valindi" is often used synonymously with "entitled whiner"), but he is still family in the end, so you try to put up with him.

And in the context of the Great Winter, that's potentially where Valind finally makes himself useful (again, to the Heortling perspective), because Valind doesn't just give his followers powers to summon cold and snow, he gives them the power to survive or even fight off the powers of winter. They wouldn't exactly be making pockets of springtime or anything, but turning aside a blizzard or being able to go out and hunt or scavenge food while everyone else is shivering by the fire is still a lot. This makes them very helpful at this time, but (again, old material, might not be canon anymore) that also means the Lunars target them. Which leads to an interesting situation where the Valindi - who are traditionally consigned to the margins, if not living as actual outlaws - might suddenly both need to rely on a wider community to survive Lunar manhunts, and be treated with a lot more respect by people whose survival they helped ensure.

[Jape_Vicho]

Valind would make an exellent cult for a bandit, in MG it's widespred between orlanthi bandits.

The Ouori walrus folk, a northern race of mermen, worship him too (the Guide pg. 105).

He is said to be worshipped through Fronela, partly propitiatorily, but also to summon his destroying powers (pg. 231). I imagine that by the northern Hsunchmen and by the Janubian and Nidan Orlanthi, though no temple to him is mentioned.

Also a people called Neechen live on the Glacier's edge and "fashion the ice into great monolyths towering towards the heavens", which sounds cool as fuck. They most definitely worship Valind and other ice deities, but sadly they are not mentioned further, so we don't really know anything about them.

From what the Guide says about Snodal's journey in the Glacier I would also say it's closer to a HeroPlane than to the middle world.

[Jape_Vicho]

4 hours ago, Leingod said:

And in the context of the Great Winter, that's potentially where Valind finally makes himself useful (again, to the Heortling perspective), because Valind doesn't just give his followers powers to summon cold and snow, he gives them the power to survive or even fight off the powers of winter. They wouldn't exactly be making pockets of springtime or anything, but turning aside a blizzard or being able to go out and hunt or scavenge food while everyone else is shivering by the fire is still a lot. This makes them very helpful at this time, but (again, old material, might not be canon anymore) that also means the Lunars target them. Which leads to an interesting situation where the Valindi - who are traditionally consigned to the margins, if not living as actual outlaws - might suddenly both need to rely on a wider community to survive Lunar manhunts, and be treated with a lot more respect by people whose survival they helped ensure.

I love that idea, and we have to remember that the Great Winter's "winter" is not as in Valind's Ice Age, there are no glaciers or anything like that, but a more metaphorical winter, as it's a return of the Greater Darkness, an age that started when the chaotic forces defeated the Ice Tribe and shattered the Glacier, so Storm and Ice have a common enemy there. 

[Loïc]

6 hours ago, Leingod said:

It's funny, that kind of reminds me of how the old Hero Wars and Sartar Rising stuff portrayed Valind and his place in the Great Winter. In Storm Tribe, Valind's write-up states that the Heortlings see him as the "bad child" of the Thunder Brothers; he's that annoying punk no one likes (apparently "valindi" is often used synonymously with "entitled whiner"), but he is still family in the end, so you try to put up with him.

And in the context of the Great Winter, that's potentially where Valind finally makes himself useful (again, to the Heortling perspective), because Valind doesn't just give his followers powers to summon cold and snow, he gives them the power to survive or even fight off the powers of winter. They wouldn't exactly be making pockets of springtime or anything, but turning aside a blizzard or being able to go out and hunt or scavenge food while everyone else is shivering by the fire is still a lot. This makes them very helpful at this time, but (again, old material, might not be canon anymore) that also means the Lunars target them. Which leads to an interesting situation where the Valindi - who are traditionally consigned to the margins, if not living as actual outlaws - might suddenly both need to rely on a wider community to survive Lunar manhunts, and be treated with a lot more respect by people whose survival they helped ensure.

Funny too: I used Storm Tribe (and Thunder Rebels) to prepare this campaign, and for the rules, I'm running a mix between HW et HQ rules... In other words, you unmasked me!!!! 😋

[Joerg]

17 hours ago, Leingod said:

And in the context of the Great Winter, that's potentially where Valind finally makes himself useful (again, to the Heortling perspective), because Valind doesn't just give his followers powers to summon cold and snow, he gives them the power to survive or even fight off the powers of winter. They wouldn't exactly be making pockets of springtime or anything, but turning aside a blizzard or being able to go out and hunt or scavenge food while everyone else is shivering by the fire is still a lot. This makes them very helpful at this time, but (again, old material, might not be canon anymore) that also means the Lunars target them. Which leads to an interesting situation where the Valindi - who are traditionally consigned to the margins, if not living as actual outlaws - might suddenly both need to rely on a wider community to survive Lunar manhunts, and be treated with a lot more respect by people whose survival they helped ensure.

That's actually the weird thing about the Windstop winter effect. Valind's realm reached its greatest extent before Wakboth and the Unholy Trio entered the world again from the far North. That advance broke the icy hold Valind had on the world.

(Zzabur's magical efforts to break Valind's grip on the world in general and on Brithos in specific, and the Breaking of the World afterwards which destroyed the Vadeli-controlled lands of the West, both aided and abetted the Greater Darkness. But that Greater Darkness started with the Battle of Icebreak, ending Valind's grasp on the world. The Chaos Age was a relief from the bad winter.

Dara Happa sat out the Great Winter in its domed bunker(s) creating a (or several) dome(s) above their ziggurats, using the Iron Ram captured from the Ram People to divide the advancing glacier north of Yuthuppa. That Iron Ram would have been a manifestation of something like Orlanth, and was effective against the winter. It was less effective against the Chaos horde, and when it was removed from the northern end of the Dara Happan dome(s) the cities lay open for the rampaging survivors in the no longer glacier-covered lands of Peloria.

Kerofinela and the parts of Saird controlled by the Vingkotlings never had been (completely) overrun by the Glacier, but they too experienced a relief from the worst excesses of Valind after his miserable defeat against the invading Chaos Horde in the Battle of Stormfall, with Orlanth and the Thunder Brothers leading the defending host. (Best source still IMO Uz Lore in Troll Pak, "Eleven Troll Battles")

Glorantha had a huge warming event when Chaos entered the world from the North, as the Skyspill turned the southern part of Pamaltela from a tropical sea shore into an inferno of spilled skyfire. This was way too big for a localized event. Seas and rivers unfroze, and became available to deal with the Breaking of the World.

So what's the point of this diatribe? Valind and Thryk the Winter Giant had lost their grip on the world even before the Greater Darkness. The Unity Battle which turned the Chaos Horde aside (and led them into Genert's Garden by the eastern route) happened during that warming event. So did the Breaking of the World, and "She is not dead, she is sleeping" - the disappearance of Ernalda (and Eiritha) into the Underworld.

The Praxian local myth about the prequel to the Greater Darkness had Death visiting Prax, and Tada hiding Eiritha under her hills. IMO this is the local version of Nontraya showing up to claim Ernalda. Cults of Prax states quite clearly that Death as in Humakt only entered the region in 35 ST, which leaves the Underworld guardian to Subere's chamber of secrets which had been seduced by Eurmal to show up at Ezel, and then in Prax.

Nontraya brought with him hordes of the Dead from the Underworld - local Nochet myths point towards the Blackmaw as his point of entry to the Surface World, inside their Necropolis, but Koravaka (the Necropolis city not yet isolated by Vogarth's lake) is another likely place for his appearance.

I wonder whether Nontraya had already had his encounter with the Devil. I assume that this wasn't the case, yet. Nontraya's servants were underworld demons and the Walking Dead, but not yet a Chaos horde. I place that encounter some time after Earthfall and Tadafall, though possibly still before the Breaking of the World.

That also places Orlanth's departure to the Westfaring into the time before the Breaking of the World. Probably even before the Unity Battle - a victory of his people, but without their god. Instead, Argan Argar looks like the most likely divine leader of that fight.

 

All of this presumes a form of linearity of experiences in Godtime. Cults of Prax tells us that Godtime is cyclical, which means that events ahead may be events behind. Still, there is the trend of the deterioration of the world, aka the Ages of the World, progressing from Creation via Green, Golden, Storm (subdivided into Flood and Winter) and Dark Age into the entropic moment broken by the I Fought We Won moment (and corresponding other such myths elsewhere on fragments of Glorantha) and the Ritual of the Net in the Underworld, leading into the Gray or Silver Age.

I am trying to keep my sanity considering this cyclical time by imaginining it as hoops around a spike rooted as a wide circular base in Creation and ending in a point in the Entropic Moment, forming a spiral, but not a perfect spiral, with hoops moving up and down the general degradation, getting narrower as they climb up. Taking for instance Vingkot's track, he rules during the Storm Age, but then slides up steeply receiving his summons to the Battle of Stormfall (in his role as one of the Thunder Brothers, not as the king of the Orlanthi), and meets his almost-demise. He returns downward into the Storm Age, plagued by the unhealable wound, and escapes into his immolation, removing himself from the Surface World (and bypassing the trek to the Gates of Dusk through his immolation). Thus his son Kodig inherits the Sword and Helm that Vingkot bore into the Battle of Stormfall long before that event reached the spiralling line of the Vingkotling people.

The Other Side of the Holy Country, depicted in the Spiral Map printed in Arcane Lore, with the Void section, might be a two-dimensional representation of the surface of this Spike. One way to read it is like a spiraling fly trap. My way of reading it is to impose any mythic path as a series of spirals onto this collection of mythical nodes, archetypical events, connecting them in a linear fashion as told in the myths.

Arkat (who had learned to perceive the world of magic as interconnected nodes during the sorcerous part of his education as a Man-of-All in Hrestoli Seshnela) later began to understand these nodes as intersections allowing a heroquester to switch paths.

(There may still be another dimension involved in this mapping of myths, an ordering of whether this was the original event (the first time it was hit) or a shadow/repeat of that event.)

[Joerg]

Sort of on-topic off-topic: Where in Glorantha would you find Yakhchāl type ice houses?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhchāl

https://medium.com/lessons-from-history/the-2500-year-old-technique-to-make-ice-in-the-desert-556a05a96fdb

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/17/2021 at 1:58 AM, dumuzid said:

This is my feeling--and another way I think Valind's Glacier mirrors the Sea of Fire.  Sail far enough into the Sea and there's not even steaming water under your vessel, just an Otherworld of fire; given the way the Glacier also extends beyond the Lozenge and into Sramak, I would guess it functions the same way.

I’m not sure it’s the same - in the North, you wind up in Altinela after a while.