Vangono's 'Three Types of Flame'

[Ned]

Does anyone know (or fancy speculating) what Pamaltelan war god Vangono's three types of flame breath might be?

Given that the Vangono Recruitment Song in Arcane Lore mentions that "Now the time is come again, Father Vangono breathes across the plains", I guess one of the flames might be an inspirational (well, expirational) fire to rouse warriors. Perhaps another is like the Soulspear spell's translucent black flame which drains Magic Points. And the last might just be hot.

I can't help but think it's been mentioned or played with somewhere.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Neil

Edited February 1, 2021 by Ned

[metcalph]

A parallel might be the Three Lowfires of Lodril - the hearth fire, the forge fire and the wildfire.  So one breath can light a campfire, the second melt stone (because metals are not common in Doraddi lands) and the conflagration.  

[Ladygolem]

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

A parallel might be the Three Lowfires of Lodril - the hearth fire, the forge fire and the wildfire.  So one breath can light a campfire, the second melt stone (because metals are not common in Doraddi lands) and the conflagration.  

You could also tie each of these metaphorically to types of leadership/speech like in the first post. Sort of "fires of the heart" a good leader must know how to start, feed, and extinguish, and the appropriate times to do so.

The hearth fire is the protective urge to defend one's home and family, with which a leader must motivate their soldiers. It is the Nourishing Fire. The forge fire is the transformation from farmer/herder to warrior, steeling their resolve and inspiring them so they are ready to fight. It is the Hardening Fire. The wildfire is the bloodlust that a leader whips up in their warriors as they charge into battle and fight fiercely. It is the Destroying Fire.

So when Father Vangono breathes across the plains, it's both a magical phenomenon but also describing the people preparing for war.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Ladygolem

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 2/1/2021 at 6:51 PM, metcalph said:

A parallel might be the Three Lowfires of Lodril - the hearth fire, the forge fire and the wildfire.  So one breath can light a campfire, the second melt stone (because metals are not common in Doraddi lands) and the conflagration.  

I like this idea! In absence of metal, the second one could also be substituted for the pottery kiln, for example.

[Sir_Godspeed]

17 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

You could also tie each of these metaphorically to types of leadership/speech like in the first post. Sort of "fires of the heart" a good leader must know how to start, feed, and extinguish, and the appropriate times to do so.

The hearth fire is the protective urge to defend one's home and family, with which a leader must motivate their soldiers. It is the Nourishing Fire. The forge fire is the transformation from farmer/herder to warrior, steeling their resolve and inspiring them so they are ready to fight. It is the Hardening Fire. The wildfire is the bloodlust that a leader whips up in their warriors as they charge into battle and fight fiercely. It is the Destroying Fire.

So when Father Vangono breathes across the plains, it's both a magical phenomenon but also describing the people preparing for war.

This is also great.

[Ladygolem]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I like this idea! In absence of metal, the second one could also be substituted for the pottery kiln, for example.

Good point, I'd thus amend my post to have the metaphor for the second fire be the firing of soft clay (farmers and herders) into hard pottery (warriors), something along those lines...

[davecake]

I think one is definitely the soulfire, and one is just hot fire - but he breathes it, and the idea that the third is the fire of inspiration and lust for war, is a cool one. 

I don't think it's the Lowfires. Those are his father Lodril/Balumbasta's fires, rather than Vangono's. Maybe even his siblings. And the soulfire is strongly associated with Vangono, so it would be very weird if it was not one of his fires. 

I also think Vangono's fires are largely from within him - the soulfire is said to be 'innermost', and he breathes fire. 

This is  the same fire that Noruma puts into humanity - the fire of life, that keeps the living in touch with both the mundane world and the spiritual. Balumbasta is an old god, and precedes Noruma, so his fire is a more mundane thing, mostly external. Vangono comes later so he symbolically has Noruma's fire the same way people do. Vangono is the god of stoking the fire inside. Though the internal fire is not just symbolic fire - magically, it is often very literally fire. 

Note that the fire inside must be balanced with water for fertility to be possible - so the relationship with Fertility (Nyanka especially) is complicated, even though both are associated with youthful irresponsibility (of differing kinds). 

[Ned]

This has been very helpful, thanks all.

I really like the conceptual neatness of the three types of flame being based on the lowfires, but I'm not sure it suits Vangono warriors' place in the culture - itching to get out of the humdrum and into battle, with everyone else having to deal with the consequences. Perhaps he does need to express fires not present in his Lowfire siblings. This is beautifully put, though...

On 2/2/2021 at 12:55 AM, Ladygolem said:

The hearth fire is the protective urge to defend one's home and family, with which a leader must motivate their soldiers. It is the Nourishing Fire. The forge fire is the transformation from farmer/herder to warrior, steeling their resolve and inspiring them so they are ready to fight. It is the Hardening Fire. The wildfire is the bloodlust that a leader whips up in their warriors as they charge into battle and fight fiercely. It is the Destroying Fire.

... and makes me think about myths about the taming of fire, and differentiating between the nourishing, useful or ritual fire... and Vangono's violence. Is his current restraint and containment just due to the strength of Pamalt's leadership (I love Sandy's story about Vangono and Sikkanos' failed coups in Mything Links), or was he mythically contained when the uses of fire were determined? Did he shame himself, or face sanction, and that's why he sucked his fire(s) inside himself, whereas the forge, campfire and wildfire can see the open sky or play across the settlement or land?

[Ned]

In other Heat-related thinking... can anyone suggest candidates for animals associated with or sacred to Lodril?

I remember reading something about Lodril, Donkey and the Death Rune, but it seems a bit close to Issaries and his mules... and there's the fire wren hsunchen who have a fire association, but Lodril would've just given it to them.

Perhaps an earthbound bird? I was thinking ground-shaking terrorbirds, that maybe incubate their eggs in volcanic ash.... but the dragonewts get demi-birds.  Moa had a long, mildy phallic neck...

EDIT: I just realised that moa get a mention in Sandy's 'Pamalt's Problem' story - with Vangono adorned with Moa feathers. That's where that got seeded, then.

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Ned

[Ladygolem]

Fire in Earth - birds(and horses) and reptiles - dinosaurs (theropods especially) would make sense if they weren't already claimed by Maran Gor, terrestrial birds as you said... Ratites already have some kind of symbolism wrt "the Ratite Empire" which I know absolutely nothing about. Demi-birds seem more like non-avian theropods through a 21st century lens, but perhaps fictional mythological significance doesn't need to be scientifically up-to-date. Moa, kiwi, emu, ostriches and terrorbirds could still work. Kakapo are flightless parrots with a penchant for mischief and destruction, could be appropriate! You also have semi-flightless birds - do chickens/cocks have any deity associations? Penguins are obviously water-related, so no. Certain types of owls make their nests in burrows. Hope any of this is helpful?

[ZedAlpha]

3 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Fire in Earth - birds(and horses) and reptiles - dinosaurs (theropods especially) would make sense if they weren't already claimed by Maran Gor, terrestrial birds as you said... Ratites already have some kind of symbolism wrt "the Ratite Empire" which I know absolutely nothing about. Demi-birds seem more like non-avian theropods through a 21st century lens, but perhaps fictional mythological significance doesn't need to be scientifically up-to-date. Moa, kiwi, emu, ostriches and terrorbirds could still work. Kakapo are flightless parrots with a penchant for mischief and destruction, could be appropriate! You also have semi-flightless birds - do chickens/cocks have any deity associations? Penguins are obviously water-related, so no. Certain types of owls make their nests in burrows. Hope any of this is helpful?

LODRIL’S SACRED BIRDS ARE GIANT ROCKHOPPER PENGUINS CHANGE MY MIiiIIIiIIIIiiiiIIIiIiIND!

• highly aggressive penguins
• very territorial
• able to scale mountain cliffs (hence the name)
• often found in highly volcanic regions in the South Pacific and Atlantic
• Lodril is King of Volcanoes, and their head feathers make bitchin’ crowns/sacred headdresses
• They mate for life (Lodril is quite faithful to Ernalda)
• Highly protective of their offspring (Lodril is protective of the Lowfires, and of the peasants who worship Him) 
• Did I mention that these angry little bastards can and will pick fights with anyone and anything that threatens their eggs or mates? Perfect sacred animal for the God of Peasant Revolts

 

[ZedAlpha]

Also: Penguins, emerging from water to go on land could be seen as a metaphor for volcanic island creation

[ZedAlpha]

Also also: Flightless. Vestkarthan/Lodril was cast out of the Sky for his impetuousness, so why should his birds be at home there?

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

(Lodril is quite faithful to Ernalda)

Except when not 🙂 since Lodril was first with Asrelia (with whom he fathered Maran Gor, and probably Caladra & Aurelion), and subsequently is husband-consort to at least two of the Grain Goddesses (Oria in Peloria, and Esrola in Esrolia) and likely more/most, and is husband to Oslira.  Lodril is also well known for his lust.

 

 

[ZedAlpha]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Except when not 🙂 since Lodril was first with Asrelia (with whom he fathered Maran Gor, and probably Caladra & Aurelion), and subsequently is husband-consort to at least two of the Grain Goddesses (Oria in Peloria, and Esrola in Esrolia) and likely more/most, and is husband to Oslira.  Lodril is also well known for his lust.

 

 

Okay, so it’s not a perfect metaphor

[Ladygolem]

Well, he's husband to more than one goddess. That's not the same thing as cheating, since he's legitimately married to all of them.

[Joerg]

Animals associated with Lodril:

the quetzalcoatl winged snake

anything that draws his plow

anything he paints on a rock, sings out, and then hunts, then sings back the image

 

[Ned]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

the quetzalcoatl winged snake

That's an exciting suggestion. Is it your own, or drawn from elsewhere?

[Joerg]

Drawn from old discussions, back on the digest or even the daily. Basically, the winged snake is Lodril's (or Veskarthen's) javelin, the kind you toss from an atlatl.

This rhymes with some of the aztec theme that was discussed for the Caladralanders back then. An animal form of the spear.

I think the footprint myth which has "a god" picking up Lodril's spear was part of the inspiration for this.

[Sir_Godspeed]

After reading some, I thought the rooster makes sense. It's a bird, so there's the Sky/Fire thing, but it's capabilities of flight is very limited (albeit not entirely absent), it is closely associated with farm life, which makes it fitting for PELORIA at least, although perhaps not other regions, and while it does not closely tie into plowing agriculture, it does fit very well with both rice agriculture and gardening/horticulture, the kind that Caladralanders might practice. It also tends to perch on high spots, much like a volcano rises above a plain, and it rules it's flock in the same way Lodril at his best is a family father or a village headman. Polygyny is also already baked into it, as is the virility (beyond English-language puns, I mean). 

I honestly can imagine a Pelorial Lodrilite village head wearing a stole or crown of cockerel feathers in a Lodrilite dance or ritual, it's the kind of decoration that they'd have readily available, and the animal is prestigious enough that it can be set apart. 

Many roosters also have that bright red comb, which can be symbolic of fire, and of course they crow to mark the sunrise (or, at least they stereotypically do, they crow for lots of other reasons as well), which might be symbolically interpreted as Lodril praising, hailing, or, hell, if you want a Lodrilite take on it, urging his brother to rise. One of the other reasons roosters crow is for warning, and they are known to fight to protect their flock, and those are traits that Lodril does have, even if they're mostly dormant in lowland Peloria. I can envision cockfighting being a pastime in Peloria among peasant communities, maybe a bit like in Bali, possibly with a mix of mundane and spiritual implications (entrail diviniation from the losing rooster?). 

Some roosters also have bright red plumage, or black plumage. Either can be interpreted as related to fire, with the second one being symbolic for ash, possibly as a mark of Lodril "claiming" the bird. That's the kind of stuff you make little origin myths about ("Lodril brings Oria fowl for the feast" or something like that. The bird turns out to be foul-tempered, and burnt from his touch, but Lodril keeps it around and it turns out it has its uses, or something along those lines.)

Anyway, just spitballing.

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I thought the rooster makes sense. It's a bird, so there's the Sky/Fire thing, but it's capabilities of flight is very limited

I used to think that the rooster would make sense for Shargash (sent out first by Yelm before the Dawn), but I think it would fit for Lodril too.

[Ned]

Yes, the cockerel does seem an excellent non-exotic choice for farmer types.

In reference to my original Vangono three breaths query, while looking for something else in the Search Engine of Lhankor Mhy, I stumbled across this, from Greg:

"One time the LB were all captured by Darkness forces and kept prisoner in Argan Argar's basement. Eurmal turned himself into a raven, hence a "darkness creature," and escaped. He hung around for a while with the other dark forces, drinking the intoxicating drink that Zorak Zoran's boys served, but got bored and so stole the bottle and flew away. The demons pursued, but Eurmal spat at them and drove them back. The first spit was a fire that made a fire for a human, the second for a god and the third for destruction. The demons stopped pursuing, and when they got back home they found that the other Lightbringers had escaped.

The human who got the fire is, in various rites, Heort, Hantrafl or Stilfin (aka, Fire Maker).
The god is often, in different rites, Orlanth who wakes up slowly and warms those nearby; Yinkin, who goes and thaws Orlanth; or Elmal, who wakes and sits up quickly.
The destructive fire is usually identified with Oakfed. "

[ZedAlpha]

So human fires, godly fires, destructive fires. That can fit in neatly with constructive/inspirational/destructive fire trinities discussed above—-humans use fires to make things or do things, gods light the fire of the spirit, oakfed just eats everything

[Ladygolem]

On 2/8/2021 at 1:57 PM, Ned said:

In other Heat-related thinking... can anyone suggest candidates for animals associated with or sacred to Lodril?

Given recent evidence from the Cults of Glorantha previews, I think there's a case for making Lodril's sacred animal the bear 😉