How Could BRP Be More Popular...?

[Redstone]

Buy the Creatures monograph.

Are the creatures in the monograph any different than the ones in the BRP book? It looks like they are the same.

[frogspawner]

Both Uncounted and monographs have one problem: they do not reach the people who buy from FLGS.

Hmm. Today I was such a person. (Travelling Man, Leeds). Quite depressing though, from a BRP perspective, I'm afraid. Shelf-upon-jam-packed-shelf of glossy RPG stuff (4E, Pathfinder, WFRP, SW, Conan d20...). One solitary copy of BRP high, high up and basically lost amongst it all. Even with a copy-or-three of Classic Fantasy next to it, BRP would still not have any significant 'presence'.

Something more is required.

[RosenMcStern]

Are the creatures in the monograph any different than the ones in the BRP book? It looks like they are the same.

There are many more, but only fantasy beasties. You also get missile location tables for all, for those who love details.

One solitary copy of BRP high, high up and basically lost amongst it all. Even with a copy-or-three of Classic Fantasy next to it, BRP would still not have any significant 'presence'.

Throw in a copy or two of "Rome" with its superb cover, add also a copy of Dragon Lines, garnish with Trollslayer, stir, bake in the oven and it is served

By the way, Dario has reworked the Dragon Lines cover with a new background, and it is now even better. It _will_ make some people look at the games.

[NickMiddleton]

Are the creatures in the monograph any different than the ones in the BRP book? It looks like they are the same.

From this thread about the monograph the list in BRP Creatures is as follows: Allosaurus, Ant (Giant), Baboon, Bandersnatch, Basilisk, Bear (Brown), Bear (Polar), Beetle (Giant), Behemoth, Brontosaur, Broo, Cattle, Centaur, Chimpanzee, Chonchon, Crocoddilians (Small and large), Deer, Dog, Dragon, Ducks, Dwarfs, Elelmentals (Gnomes, salamanders, shades, sylphs, undines), elephants, Elves, Fachan, Ghosts, Ghouls, Giant, Gorgon, Gorilla, Grampus, griffin, Hafling, Harpy, Hawk, Headhanger, Hellion, Horse, Human, Insect Swarm, Jabberwork, Lamia, Lion, Lizard, Manticore, Minotaur, Mummy, Nymph (Dryad, Hag, Naiad, Oread), Octopus, Ogre, Orc, Panther, Plesiosaur, Python, Satyr, Sea Serpent, Shark, (medium and large, but alas, no lasers...), Skeleton, Spirit (Disease, Healing, Intellect, Magic, Passion, Power, Spell), Stoorworm, Tiger, Toad (Cliff), Troll (Cave and, er, non-cave...), Unicorn, Vampire, Werewolf, Whale (Sperm, Killer and Dolphin), Wolf, Wraith, Wyrm, Wyvern, Zombie.

That's noticeably longer than the list of creatures in the BRP core book:

Alligator (or Crocodile), Bear, Brontosaur, Dog, Gorilla, Hawk, Horse, Insect Swarm, Lion, Rat Pack, Shark, Snake (Constrictor, Venomous), Squid (Giant), Tiger, Tyrannosaurus Rex, Wolf. Centaur, Dragon, Dwarf, Elf, Ghost, Ghoul, Giant, Griffin, Halfling, Mummy, Minotaur, Orc, Skeleton, Troll, Unicorn, Vampire, Werewolf, Zombie. Angel, Demon (Greater, Lesser), Elementals (Air, Earth, Fire, Water). Alien (Grey, Xenomorph), Blob, Robot (Giant, Killer, Utility).

Also, although there are some duplicates, often it's just the name. The BRP Creatures version of the Zombie for example is not the simple modern movie zombie.

Cheers,

Nick

Edited December 15, 2009 by NickMiddleton

[NickMiddleton]

Would Uncounted Worlds also be a suitable place for such things? After all, it is freely available from the Chaosium site, and may reach a bigger, or at least different, audience. (Mr Middleton?)

I'd certainly be willing to include such material, but as Paolo points out, this stuff needs to be on the FLGS shelves...

What would be the SF equivalent of Classic Fantasy?

Cheers,

Nick

[Redstone]

From this thread about the monograph the list in BRP Creatures is as follows: Allosaurus, Ant (Giant), Baboon, Bandersnatch, Basilisk, Bear (Brown), Bear (Polar), Beetle (Giant), Behemoth, Brontosaur, Broo, Cattle, Centaur, Chimpanzee, Chonchon, Crocoddilians (Small and large), Deer, Dog, Dragon, Ducks, Dwarfs, Elelmentals (Gnomes, salamanders, shades, sylphs, undines), elephants, Elves, Fachan, Ghosts, Ghouls, Giant, Gorgon, Gorilla, Grampus, griffin, Hafling, Harpy, Hawk, Headhanger, Hellion, Horse, Human, Insect Swarm, Jabberwork, Lamia, Lion, Lizard, Manticore, Minotaur, Mummy, Nymph (Dryad, Hag, Naiad, Oread), Octopus, Ogre, Orc, Panther, Plesiosaur, Python, Satyr, Sea Serpent, Shark, (medium and large, but alas, no lasers...), Skeleton, Spirit (Disease, Healing, Intellect, Magic, Passion, Power, Spell), Stoorworm, Tiger, Toad (Cliff), Troll (Cave and, er, non-cave...), Unicorn, Vampire, Werewolf, Whale (Sperm, Killer and Dolphin), Wolf, Wraith, Wyrm, Wyvern, Zombie.

That's noticeably longer than the list of creatures in the BRP core book:

Alligator (or Crocodile), Bear, Brontosaur, Dog, Gorilla, Hawk, Horse, Insect Swarm, Lion, Rat Pack, Shark, Snake (Constrictor, Venomous), Squid (Giant), Tiger, Tyrannosaurus Rex, Wolf. Centaur, Dragon, Dwarf, Elf,

Ghost, Ghoul, Giant, Griffin, Halfling, Mummy, Minotaur, Orc, Skeleton, Troll, Unicorn, Vampire, Werewolf, Zombie. Angel, Demon (Greater,

Lesser), Elementals (Air, Earth, Fire, Water). Alien (Grey, Xenomorph),

Blob, Robot (Giant, Killer, Utility).

Also, although there are some duplicates, often it's just the name. The BRP Creatures version of the Zombie for example is not the simple modern movie zombie.

Cheers,

Nick

Thanks Nick. Looks like I have another book to buy. Just as a note for whoever handles the basicroleplaying.com website, you need to change that on the description of the Creatures monograph. I would have bought one months ago, but, with one or two exceptions it looked like they were the same as the creatures as in the BRP book.

[Thalaba]

Absolutely. The problem is that "for free" means also "not in the stores". Which means that most gamers that would need them will not get them. The "Classic Fantasy" way would be better, as it attracted enough attention to be upgraded to a full supplement status.

I don't see that it needs to be an 'either/or' situation. Both could exist. One can be produced quickly (assuming someone volunteers to do so), the other will take years at the current rate.

Just as a note for whoever handles the basicroleplaying.com website.....

That would be Trifletraxor. <start Tongue In Cheek mode> According to a recent poll, he's the young guy we keep around to operate the technical equipment for us seniors</TIC>

[rust]

What would be the SF equivalent of Classic Fantasy?

I doubt that one supplement could cover the entire science fiction, the dif-

ferences between the sub-genres are much bigger than in the case of fan-

tasy. For example, "Golden Age" SF and transhumanism probably would re-

quire different choices of options.

[lawrence.whitaker]

What would be the SF equivalent of Classic Fantasy?

To my mind, a rip-roaring pulp Space Opera in the mould of Star Wars, Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers. Blasters, improbable warp drives, low on the scientific accuracy, heavy on the MGF. More 'Star Frontiers' than Traveller. Lots of Bug-Eyed-Monsters, planets that ignore astrophysics/geophysics and exist just because its fun and cool. A big, evil, galactic empire, with lots of princesses to be rescued, evil worlds to be destroyed, and improbable substances that permit FTL without having to worry about calculating fuel requirements, thrust ratios and all that stuff.

[Thalaba]

I doubt that one supplement could cover the entire science fiction, the dif-

ferences between the sub-genres are much bigger than in the case of fan-

tasy. For example, "Golden Age" SF and transhumanism probably would re-

quire different choices of options.

One supplement can't cover all fantasy, either. Classic Fantasy appeals to the crowd that likes old school D&D type fantasy. If you want to do S&S, Fantasy realism, space fantasy, or any number of fantasies based on world mythology, I'm betting that Classic Fantasy won't be much help. There's definitely a place for it, but it's not a panacea.

[Thalaba]

To my mind, a rip-roaring pulp Space Opera in the mould of Star Wars, Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers. Blasters, improbable warp drives, low on the scientific accuracy, heavy on the MGF. More 'Star Frontiers' than Traveller. Lots of Bug-Eyed-Monsters, planets that ignore astrophysics/geophysics and exist just because its fun and cool. A big, evil, galactic empire, with lots of princesses to be rescued, evil worlds to be destroyed, and improbable substances that permit FTL without having to worry about calculating fuel requirements, thrust ratios and all that stuff.

How about "StRAW RATS: Mouse Guard meets Space Opera"? (slinks away)

[NickMiddleton]

I doubt that one supplement could cover the entire science fiction, the differences between the sub-genres are much bigger than in the case of fantasy.

But Classic Fantasy doesn't cover multiple sub-genres of fantasy - it specifically goes for one particular genre - AD&D.

Now, it's certainly true that SF RPG's, despite the early dominance of Traveller, never "homogenised" around a single dominant genre in quite the way that fantasy did around D&D. BUt I think there might be some mileage in this...And my instinct is that there is MORE mileage in coming up with an SF setting that cleaves to this baseline model, than trying to create a generic "BRP Space" that can do 2001, Firefly, B5 AND S:AaB...

For example, "Golden Age" SF and transhumanism probably would require different choices of options.

Hmm - but think Star Wars / Star Trek / B5 / Firefly / Farscape / Andromeda / Blake's Seven - is there a commonality, despite their distinctive flavours and styles? I think there is, you know...

To my mind, a rip-roaring pulp Space Opera in the mould of Star Wars, Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers. Blasters, improbable warp drives, low on the scientific accuracy, heavy on the MGF. More 'Star Frontiers' than Traveller. Lots of Bug-Eyed-Monsters, planets that ignore astrophysics/geophysics and exist just because its fun and cool. A big, evil, galactic empire, with lots of princesses to be rescued, evil worlds to be destroyed, and improbable substances that permit FTL without having to worry about calculating fuel requirements, thrust ratios and all that stuff.

Hmm - story over precise science. JMS famously said of the space ships in B5 that they moved at the speed of plot - and whilst B5 was never really "pulp", and occasionally would play with / foreground "cool science"§ it was always first and foremost about a compelling story about plausible characters... Clear cut divisions of white hats and black hats - an oppressive central authority (Corrupt federation / evil empire) for our rag tag band of heroes to oppose... Small ships must be viable (so PC's on a ship is plausible), but that doesn't preclude BIG ships either... Sounds workable, but as ever the devil is in the details...

Nick

§ Sheridan "falling" from the core shuttle - the danger wasn't the "fall", which was very slow, it was the speed at which the station was rotating... Of the fact that the Star Fury's regularly used their thrusters to rotate about all three axises...

Edited December 15, 2009 by NickMiddleton

[frogspawner]

Throw in a copy or two of "Rome" with its superb cover, add also a copy of Dragon Lines, garnish with Trollslayer, stir, bake in the oven and it is served

By the way, Dario has reworked the Dragon Lines cover with a new background, and it is now even better. It _will_ make some people look at the games.

I'd certainly be willing to include such material, but as Paolo points out, this stuff needs to be on the FLGS shelves...

Well, I'd be very happy to be proved wrong, and seeing BRP material occupying one foot or more of under-head-height shelf space would do that. But how good does the spine of Dragon Lines look? Precious few books if any were displayed face-forward in the RPG section. (BRP scored here, because it's spine isn't black).

Trollslayer was there (1 copy) but I didn't see it (until later, by sheer luck) - miles away from BRP itself, down at knee-level (and it's very thin). I guess the BRP line isn't well-known enough for them to be put together.

Default is apparently alphabetical order of title. Sadly, in this shop, that left BRP languishing awkwardly high up and almost in the very far corner, nearly blocked by stuff on the end-wall. (And it was half-hidden by some other odd-shaped books that jutted out).

Maybe if everything was titled "BRP: x/y/z", then they'd be sure to be together en masse?

Better yet, if they were called "Cthulhu: x/y/z", maybe they'd command some of the prime shelf-space the CoC-related material does... :ohwell:

So, even if the stuff does get to the shops, there are still plenty more hurdles.

[rust]

Hmm - but think Star Wars / Star Trek / B5 / Firefly / Farscape / Andromeda / Blake's Seven - is there a commonality, despite their distinctive flavours and styles? I think there is, you know...

Well, these examples are all in the "centre field" of science fiction, but think

of the entire spectrum between Arthur C. Clarke and Philip K. Dick, and it

becomes a bit more complicated - the worlds of 2001: Space Odyssey and

Blade Runner have much less in common.

[frogspawner]

What would be the SF equivalent of Classic Fantasy?

Gamma World. And/or Metamorphosis Alpha. (Hmm, didn't Mr Leary mention running GW? We've found his next project!)

[rust]

On second thoughts, the main differences between fantasy supplements and

science fiction supplements are probably the technology assumptions.

Fantasy of (almost) all sub-genres uses the same technology assumptions, a

horse is a horse, a sword is a sword, a crossbow is a crossbow, and it is easy

to understand how they function, because there are real world examples.

In the Science Fiction field, different settings usually also have very different

technology assumption: FTL or not, type of FTL (drive or gate), various ty-

pes of weapons (energy or projectile), computers and robots with widely dif-

ferent capabilities, and so on and on - and they all have to be explained, be-

cause there is no real world example.

So, while you probably could play more than 75 % of all fantasy settings with

the same equipment list, almost each science fiction setting requires its own,

specific equipment and technology chapter.

It is probably somewhat similar with the magic systems of different fantasy

settings, but in my view their are not as many magic approaches in fantasy

as there are technology approaches in science fiction, and magic does not

have to be explained as much - it just works.

[threedeesix]

Gamma World. And/or Metamorphosis Alpha. (Hmm, didn't Mr Leary mention running GW? We've found his next project!)

Actually, I envisioned an entire line of "Classic" supplements. The two most prominent in my mind after Fantasy were Classic Space Opera and Classic Post Apocalyptic. Mainly because those two were my introduction to role playing games. And being a Star Wars fan, I even ran Traveller as more Buck Rogers than was ever intended I'm sure.

Mr. Lawrence Whitaker hit the nail on the head with how he summarized Classic Scifi, at least as how I would do it. And I would do a very Gamma Worldish post apocalypse setting as well.

But the truth of the matter is I'm only one person, and Classic Fantasy is keeping me more than busy. I really don't want to let the second volume be the last I write for the line. I have all these adventurers running around in my head. And the more time that passes, the more likely someone will fill the nich before me anyway, take Rubble and Ruin for example.

While I do want to do something different down the road, what that will be will really depend on what I feal has been untouched when I get there.

Rod

[NickMiddleton]

Well, these examples are all in the "centre field" of science fiction, but think of the entire spectrum between Arthur C. Clarke and Philip K. Dick, and it becomes a bit more complicated - the worlds of 2001: Space Odyssey and Blade Runner have much less in common.

Yes. But they aren't really relevant precisely because they are edge cases. Few fantasy settings actually fit the AD&D model - but that's the one gamers (taken on mass) gravitate to. Likewise, I think "SF" for gamers gravitates towards something like Loz and I described - high on character and story, low on science (especially when it gets in the way - but not necessarily entirely devoid of it); an oppressive 'central' authority (to give characters something to fight against); a wide open back drop so that there is space for stand alone stories 9and so they don't HAVE to fight the central authority); space ships that both allow a plausible adventuring size group AND huge space battles...

After all, precisely the point is NOT to try and create something that will truly cover the entire genre - it's futile task and deeply unlikely to sell. What I'm talking about is crafting a "non-specific" SF setting that captures the "centre field" feel of SF that would appeal to most gamers, in the same way that Classic Fantasy has for Fantasy Gaming...

Cheers,

Nick

[RosenMcStern]

After all, precisely the point is NOT to try and create something that will truly cover the entire genre - it's futile task and deeply unlikely to sell. What I'm talking about is crafting a "non-specific" SF setting that captures the "centre field" feel of SF that would appeal to most gamers, in the same way that Classic Fantasy has for Fantasy Gaming...

I do not think it would work for SF. Classic Fantasy has success because it is retrogaming, and it smells like D&D. What would this "classic sci-fi" smell like? Is there a product that has had the same success as D&D in the Sci-fi genre? Traveller? GW?

[NickMiddleton]

I do not think it would work for SF. Classic Fantasy has success because it is retrogaming, and it smells like D&D. What would this "classic sci-fi" smell like? Is there a product that has had the same success as D&D in the Sci-fi genre? Traveller? GW?

That's a fair point... In the early days of RPG's, clearly not, as Traveller (for all it was popular) never really overshadowed (A)D&D as far as I'm aware.But Traveller/FASA's Star Trek / both incarnations of Star Wars? There's a certain substance there. It was somewhat overshadowed in the 1990's by the gaming obsession with cyberpunk, but as technology has outstripped the baroque predictions of the genre cyberpunk's start has somewhat faded. Mind, transhumanism has largely usurped it's place it seems to me.

To be honest, I'm not really envisaging this as something that will be as successful as Classic Fantasy: for whatever reason RPG gamers are obsessed with fantasy to a much greater degree than any other genre. But it's a model that I think might have lessons for other BRP supplements, and I do know that when Dave Gordon was talking to Chaosium back in early 2006 about a truly generic BRP Space, they (well, Lynn Willis IIRC) questioned if there was a market for such a non-specific supplement.

Cheers,

Nick

[rust]

Is there a product that has had the same success as D&D in the Sci-fi genre? Traveller? GW?

I think it would probably be something like Traveller, but a "BRP Traveller"

would hardly be successful, there are already about a dozen different Tra-

veller versions and many more "clones" it would have to compete with.

Besides, as far as I know there is already a rather BRP-like and somewhat

Traveller-like science fiction roleplaying game in the wings, Translight by

Martin J. Dougherty of Avenger, who wrote a lot of excellent material for

different Traveller versions.

I have no idea whether and when it will be published, as the author seems

to work on it mainly when he has no other projects with deadlines, but in

my view it would not be a good idea to duplicate his efforts.

http://www.comstar-games.com/translight/translight-roleplaying-science-fiction-game.html

Edited December 15, 2009 by rust

[threedeesix]

I do not think it would work for SF. Classic Fantasy has success because it is retrogaming, and it smells like D&D. What would this "classic sci-fi" smell like? Is there a product that has had the same success as D&D in the Sci-fi genre? Traveller? GW?

Not to the same extent I'm sure, but Traveller and Gamma World are two examples of games with staying power. For SF, I wasn't thinking as much of emulating a previous game, as emulating a previous movie saga, or sending players where other players have gone before. The two types of SF I'm interested in gaming, would be the evil empire setting, or the space exploration setting. Of course, there is no reason one game couldn't contain both elements.

[Nightshade]

Well, these examples are all in the "centre field" of science fiction, but think

of the entire spectrum between Arthur C. Clarke and Philip K. Dick, and it

becomes a bit more complicated - the worlds of 2001: Space Odyssey and

Blade Runner have much less in common.

Yes, but the question is, what are the majority of people running an SF game going to do? I'd argue quite a bit of SF isn't very gameable in the normal sense, and once you're getting to people who are going to try, they're the same people who are going to want fantasy that doesn't necessary fit the mode we're used to in the hobby too.

Most people running SF games are, in the end, usually running some flavor of space opera.

[deleriad]

I would say that if classic rpg fantasy was rooted in killing things and taking their stuff, classic rpg sci-fi was in getting shares in a ship and going trading. Though not as all-dominating as D&D, Traveller with its trading, world generating, ship building and lifepath char gen is probably as close to a default rpg sci-fi genre as I know. Both of them were about the grind. In D&D it was down to the dungeon, go as deep as you can, come back, spend xp. In Traveller it was find trade routes, generate profit, upgrade equipment and ship. The adventures were what happened while you did it.

[rust]

In Traveller it was find trade routes, generate profit, upgrade equipment and ship. The adventures were what happened while you did it.

Yes, although Traveller also often was military science fiction, discover and

explore exotic worlds and kill everything you encounter ...