threedeesix Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Yes, although Traveller also often was military science fiction, discover and explore exotic worlds and kill everything you encounter ... Kill things and take their ship:D Quote Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info "D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalaba Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Coming back to the question of what is a generic sci-fi supplement - I'm not sure I thought through this well, so feel free to poke holes... Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you have two broad classes of people who buy into the market. You've got people who are do-it-yourselfers, and people who want things handed to them. Perhaps because the RPG community seems to be aging (and having families and so on), there has been a swing to the latter because people don't have the time to fiddle with rules and create anymore. This is evidenced by the fairly recent trend towards rules-lightness, and also the ubiquitous comment about not wanting to houserule anything. These people want their games to be quick to learn, easy to teach, and and generally complete. The BRP ruleset is highly adaptable and could appeal to both camps. But the rulebook, as written, is a toolbox and definitely appeals to the DIY crowd more than the others. This is why some have suggested a rules-lite version might be needed. It seems to me that, in thinking about new setting material, one should think about which crowd one wants to appeal to. It might not be possible to appeal to both. Do you create a generic Space Opera gamebook (in the way that Classic Fantasy is a generic Dungeon Crawl gamebook)? If so, you will probably want to create a tech tree and maybe a broad overall context for the univers, but also put in tools for making your own planets and so on. On the other hand, if you are trying to appeal to games-lite crowd, you probably need to hand them a lot more - specific planets, government structure, villains, plot hooks, sample starting adventure, tightly focused rules, and so on. The focus of the book must be a lot tighter, I think. Which begs the question - should a tightly focused RPG that includes a setting try to be something that people have bought before (like Firefly, say, or the Culture novels) or should it be something much more original in it's vision (like, perhaps, Mechanical Dream, or Brian Aldiss 'Hothouse') to grab people's attention? The people who want things handed to them seem to be divided into two camps - people who want something familiar (with a shallow learning curve, so that it's easy to jump right in with players who haven't read the book) and those who want truly original settings, which might require more work to learn Is it possible to appeal to all categories? Or do you create one kind of book for the people who want to make their own campaigns, another kind of book for the people who want a campaign handed to them (but a familiar one), and a third kind of book for those who want something really original handed to them? Quote "Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb __________________________________ Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Not saying it is not true, but I'm quite surprised to find gamers are such luddites when it comes to games and the internet. I would have expected far more impact on games from the online presense of the company, but from some of the info presented so far that does not seem to be the case. I think the idea of free pdf genre primers is a good one, very basic maybe 10 pages suggesting options, genre conventions etc. Just enough to help a GM cut away options, and just focus on those needed for the particular game being run. These could easily be broken down to very specific sub genres low fantasy, high fantasy etc without being overwhelming. I think the really important part is not just handing them another book full of options. I'm not sure how this could be transfered to store shelves though. Genre books like GURPS & HERO have are great but the seem to be more of preaching to the converted products, not so much bringing in those who think the main book is too complicated. I don't think tiny little printed books (20 pages or so) are very cost effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Is it possible to appeal to all categories? Or do you create one kind of book for the people who want to make their own campaigns, another kind of book for the people who want a campaign handed to them (but a familiar one), and a third kind of book for those who want something really original handed to them? I would not dare to try to answer that one. Doing it with a single supplement seems like an attempt to "square the circle" to me, but I may well be wrong. I think we will have to wait for the success or failure a couple of different mo- nographs to "test the water" before we can come to any reasonable conclu- sion. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalaba Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I would not dare to try to answer that one. Doing it with a single supplement seems like an attempt to "square the circle" to me, but I may well be wrong. I think we will have to wait for the success or failure a couple of different mo- nographs to "test the water" before we can come to any reasonable conclu- sion. My feeling is that BRP is the kind of game that attracts the DIY people, so if you only measure the success of BRP supplements, they'll be skewed that way. In order to attract the others, I suspect you might have to print a stand-alone book along the lines of Cthulhu Dark Ages with focused rules and a reasonably tight setting. I think that Classic Fantasy has found a 'sweet spot' in-between. It's a DIY type book, but appeals to a broader range of people because it's got nostalgic and highly familiar elements which give it the appearance of containing a setting. One reason for the appeal of dungeon crawls is that they don't really require a lot of thought to create (in terms of motives, NPC personalities, setting politics, or explanation of themes). Quote "Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb __________________________________ Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 By the way, just to add some real world data to the discussion: I have up- loaded the BRP Quick-Start Edition to the archive of my German "home fo- rum" Fundus Ludi on December 9, and it has meanwhile been downloaded nine times, so it seems the wider availability of the "BRP Lite" does make sense. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Mr. Lawrence Whitaker hit the nail on the head... Actually, I envisioned an entire line of "Classic" supplements. The two most prominent in my mind after Fantasy were Classic Space Opera and Classic Post Apocalyptic. ... But the truth of the matter is I'm only one person... So, how can we get around that little problem? Because it sounds like it'd be great. Could folks around here contribute various bits, and Mr L (3d6) paste it together? For "Classic SciFi", I'm reminded of Doc Smith, rather than any serious SF authors. (But there was a GURPS Lensman, so I guess SJG own that. Still, battle-axes in zero-g...! That sort of style). It strikes me that a "Classic Apocalypse" could include stuff for runaway colony starships (Metamorphosis Alpha) as well as the ruined (Gamma-) World. They'd logically fit in the same universe. Also, I'd suggest a world ruined by runaway global warming ("Scorched Earth"?), rather than (just) nuclear war/disaster, would fit better with modern concerns. (There, you see? I'm almost inspired. And it's not even my genre!) Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence.whitaker Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Could folks around here contribute various bits, and Mr L (3d6) paste it together? Much as I'd like to, I'm fully committed to full-time writing projects. I simply wouldn't have the time, I'm afraid. Quote The Design Mechanism: Publishers of Mythras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Much as I'd like to, I'm fully committed... I meant Mr Leary (threedeesix) - he owns the "Classic..." franchise, after all! (Soz for not being clearer). (PS: Nice to know you've got more, doubtless good, stuff coming, tho'!) Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 There is already a really good BRP... well technically Cthulhu... SF setting out there, if Chaosium only takes the chance. Cthulhu Rising Despite the name, in the core book the impact of the Mythos is minimal, and could easily be presented in a call-out as an option. This setting is more along the Traveller 2300 in terms of tech and culture, but this is a good thing as it would make a Firefly type game really really easy. It has a pretty solid timeline, making games based on it in different time periods possible. It also has FTL, Multi-System conglomerates, large dispassionate Government organizations, civil wars, uncharted locations... all waiting to be explored and exploited. And there is even more currently on the Cthulhu Rising web site. John Ossoway has done a really good job here. While not Star Wars or Star Trek, it could certainly function as the framework for Traveller, B5, Firefly, 2001, and many others, as well as its own setting. SDLeary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 There is already a really good BRP... well technically Cthulhu... SF setting out there, if Chaosium only takes the chance. Cthulhu Rising It looks a decent, workmanlike effort - and well supported with adventures. And Cthulhu-optional. (Mind you, what campaign of any genre doesn't have something Cthulhoid in it?) With the added advantage of the "Cthulhu" name-tag, to 'leverage' access to that all-important FLGS shelf-space... Right, that's the SciFi settled then. :thumb: So the rest of us can concentrate on "Classic Apocalypse" ...or perhaps "Cthulhu Apocalypse" (for more shelving)? Now that IS a thought... maybe it should be a mythos-related apocalypse (instead of nuclear/global warming). After all, if any of your save-the-world CoC adventures actually fails, what do you play next? Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redstone Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 One quick comment about Cthulhu Rising. There are alot of gamers out there who are not interested in the Cthulhu line of rpgs, but who are interested in scifi. As soon as you throw 'Cthulhu' into the title, the afore mentioned gamers will not even look at that book. Not only would they be turned off by Cthulhu in the title, they would have no reason to think it has anything to do with scifi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Indeed. There are now several "Cthulhu SF" titles (End Time, Once Men, Ri- sing + Jovian Nightmares), but they remain "below the radar" of most BRP science fiction players because of their connection with Cthulhu. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 There are alot of gamers out there who are not interested in the Cthulhu line of rpgs... True, of course. Including me! (up to now) Indeed. There are now several "Cthulhu SF" titles (End Time, Once Men, Rising + Jovian Nightmares), but they remain "below the radar" of most BRP science fiction players because of their connection with Cthulhu. Any chance of reconciling all those (plus Outpost 19?) into ONE setting, that's basically non-Cthulhoid 'pure' SciFi? Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) Any chance of reconciling all those (plus Outpost 19?) into ONE setting, that's basically non-Cthulhoid 'pure' SciFi? I do not think so. End Time and Rising / Jovian Nightmares are somewhat similar in their approach, but Once Men and Outpost 19 are very much dif- ferent. Edit.: And I seem to remember that John Ossoway (Rising / Jovian Nightmares) plans to move over to OpenQuest instead of BRP, but this could also be a misunderstanding of mine. Edited December 16, 2009 by rust Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 And I seem to remember that John Ossoway (Rising / Jovian Nightmares) plans to move over to OpenQuest instead of BRP, but this could also be a misunderstanding of mine. No, it was no misunderstanding. Newt stated this fact, so it is an official d101 statement. Outpost 19 could be evolved into a very good setting. Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickMiddleton Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I do not think so. End Time and Rising / Jovian Nightmares are somewhat similar in their approach, but Once Men and Outpost 19 are very much different. Outpost 19 is very much NOT intended to have a Cthulhu element, and reconciling it's very-limited and inimical to complex organic life FTL ships but ubiquitous gates with the FTL set up in CR would be problematic, to say the least... I am (amongst a gazillion other things) developing some ideas for a follow up to O19, but it's slow going at present. Edit.:And I seem to remember that John Ossoway (Rising / Jovian Nightmares) plans to move over to OpenQuest instead of BRP, but this could also be a misunderstanding of mine. That would be the River of Heaven hard SF setting John and others are developing - I had a brief involvement early on and it looks very exciting (I believe John is planning an OQ version and Newt will also be doing a HeroQuest 2 adaptation) but it was, last I knew, definitely hard SF. And, fond though I am of CR, it's really not "soft" Space Opera in the style of the TV shows / films I listed up thread... Cheers, Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 And, fond though I am of CR, it's really not "soft" Space Opera in the style of the TV shows / films I listed up thread... Yep, it is much closer to (and probably inspired by, I think) Classic Traveller, which is at least "semi-hard" SF, not space opera. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Outpost 19 is very much NOT intended to have a Cthulhu element... Sure? That might be barrier to expanding O19 into a full-blown setting, since such things do tend to creep in. ...and reconciling it's very-limited and inimical to complex organic life FTL ships but ubiquitous gates with the FTL set up in CR would be problematic, to say the least... Really? Couldn't different Corps just have different technologies? CR's F-Drive is likely tainted by the mythos - maybe some Companies have scruples against using it... ( As if!) That would be the River of Heaven hard SF setting John and others are developing - I had a brief involvement early on and it looks very exciting (I believe John is planning an OQ version and Newt will also be doing a HeroQuest 2 adaptation) but it was, last I knew, definitely hard SF. So... he's moving on to new SF setting? So will he leave the C.Rising setting to CoC/BRP? And anyway, why couldn't RoH span a third system - BRP? And, fond though I am of CR, it's really not "soft" Space Opera... Well, is Outpost19? Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newt Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 No, it was no misunderstanding. Newt stated this fact, so it is an official d101 statement. Opps sorry folks I think I may have made a bit of a garbled statement a couple of posts back. Let me clarify; John's new Hard-Sci Fi setting RIVER OF HEAVEN is going to be OpenQuest powered and published by D101. Cthulhu Rising remains CoC/BRP. I've yet to make the big announcement about River of Heaven, mainly because John is nailing down the setting/system into a playtest draft as we speak, but I plan to do so over the XMAS period. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Quote Head Honcho of D101 GamesPublisher of Crypts and Things/Monkey/OpenQuest/River of HeavenThe Sorcerer Under the Mountain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Yep, it is much closer to (and probably inspired by, I think) Classic Traveller, which is at least "semi-hard" SF, not space opera. Much closer to 2300 in flavor than classic Traveller. SDLeary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Much closer to 2300 in flavor than classic Traveller. This may well be, I do not know 2300 AD well. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 And anyway, why couldn't RoH span a third system - BRP? Conversion from OQ to BRP is semi-automatic. I do not think different editions are needed. In any case, we are looking for a "Flagship" sci-fi product for BRP, not for "Yet-another-version-of-a-good-setting-that-spans-several-systems". My personal vote is for expanding Outpost 19. But who publishes it? Chaosium directly? Alephtar Games? The Unborn Collective? Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 But who publishes it? Chaosium directly? Alephtar Games? The Unborn Collective? I would vote for Chaosium, mainly because this seems the best way to get such a supplement into the FLGS and close to the BRP core book. Alephtar Games seems to concentrate on (and get a good reputation for) historical settings, science fiction might not fit in that well, and the Un- born Collective would most probably remain the Unknown Collective for quite some time. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Alephtar Games seems to concentrate on (and get a good reputation for) historical settings This will change soon. Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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