Backford Aeolian Campaign

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

"Greenwood is noted for its eponymous woods which remain green year-round, and for a nearby copper mine."

IIRC, elves like copper so perfect.

GtG: Their plans are opposed by plots from the trolls and dwarves. They successfully thwart
them, returning to the Arstola Forest with the New Seed. And then the Reforestation begins...

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

"The Grove of Green Rock". 

Yes, that's it. Thank you much!

[Ynneadwraith]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:15 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Even while the Lunar troops are pillaging crucifying Sartarites and stealing from any Issaries traders they bump into? Maybe he was soft and partly the reason he was assassinated?

Militarily-supremacism? When on what planet has a nation allowed trade to continue on their land or waters by an aggressor power who is killing their people? Look to the first two World Wars or during any other conflict, the trade vessels of even neutral powers were searched, seized and or sunk when trading with an enemy nation..

Someone please site where out of the goodness of Prince Terasarin's heart he says "even though my people are being butchered by the kind and benevolent Lunars its OK for the them to move freely through our lands and crucify my people"?

Catching up on a lot of old discussion, but I thought it would be worth commenting on this.

Be careful not to apply modern capabilities to pre-modern societies. It's almost not possible to overstate the step-change in State capability industrialisation enabled.

It was this order-of-magnitude increase in State capability that allowed post-industrial States to even consider implementing trade embargos. Prior to that there just isn't the available manpower at the disposal of the State to search all these people moving through their territory. They also don't really have the bureaucracy behind them to enable that either.

It's less about the King saying 'these people can move freely', and more about the King being almost powerless to prevent them moving freely (for a given understanding of 'freely'). Armies very frequently couldn't even prevent trade occurring with a single besieged city, let alone an entire country.

Also, there wasn't even really the modern understanding of economic warfare where trade was seen as linked to military capability (beyond burning people's fields to starve them). That came much, much later with broader understanding of economics in general. So it's not likely that what state power existed would even recognise limiting trade with Etyries merchants as in any way connected to the war effort.

That isn't saying that there won't be local backlash, with Etyries merchants being caught up in broader anti-Lunar sentiments, but it's not going to be some sort of 'State crackdown' on Etyries-based trade. I'd expect to see local people jacking up their prices to Etyries merchants, or targeting them more for robberies, but that's not really any different to what these merchants would expect from other loosely hostile areas.

At worst, the King could stir up popular hatred of Etyries merchants to the point there's a mob response and a load of them get lynched/driven out of town (that happened quite a lot), though as there isn't a modern understanding of economic warfare it's more likely to be a grass-roots-led thing than something the King orders.

Whether and when that happens in your Sartar is probably a point where YGWV.

[Erol of Backford]

8 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Be careful not to apply modern capabilities to pre-modern societies.

Prince Terasarin was a puppet put in place by the conquerors (Lunars). This has been the case so many times through history with the resultant being the population enmasse doesn't believe the ruler is neither acting in favor of the population nor the best cause of the conquered State assuming they may not be one and the same... Trade is almost always disrupted and has often been the root cause of conflicts and takes a while to get back to normalcy. Roads are fearful, policing is left to the locals besides important shipments. Any disruption of important trade is punished by reprisals against the mostly innocent noncombatant public who are sacrificed. I think I saw something similar to this in Joe Kid just the other night. I don't have ancient examples of this but I'd be willing to read up on any arguments that the public rather than bandits were those who suffered most?

8 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

They also don't really have the bureaucracy behind them to enable that either.

So the Lunars agree to assist any locals to further their own position and that of their clan who support them. This leave local marshalling to those (in the minds of the locals) unjustly placed in a position of power and creates further tension and likely a migration of those able until the rightful rulers are back in place, maybe this never happens.

9 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

That isn't saying that there won't be local backlash, with Etyries merchants being caught up in broader anti-Lunar sentiments, but it's not going to be some sort of 'State crackdown' on Etyries-based trade.

With the puppet supporting Etyries for the most part I would not suspect any crackdown beside via banditry.

I can see Luner traders carrying goods to their forces at Whitewall no issue but around the bend away from an escort they have a good chance of being attacked.

Smuggling has always been around and shows its face in GLorantha a good bit especially in times of conflict where there is a good profit to be made?

The thought was while Sartar is actively being invaded the ruler of Sartar isn't going to come out and say don't attack any Lunars who appear to be traders as they are under my protection? I just don't agree with that. YGWV of course.

[Ian_W]

19 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

 

It was this order-of-magnitude increase in State capability that allowed post-industrial States to even consider implementing trade embargos. Prior to that there just isn't the available manpower at the disposal of the State to search all these people moving through their territory. They also don't really have the bureaucracy behind them to enable that either.

 

In the case of the Roman Empire in Constantinople, they were pretty darn successful in limiting trade in silk.

 

Agreed, they probably made a very sensible decision to not try and limit trade in other than silk, but we have very little high end silk in western, barbarian, Europe, other than through official channels.

 

Now, there is also the argument that you don;t need to impose an embargo if you can just say 'There's a whole lot of bandits, and they are all your problem'.

 

I suspect that suppressing banditry among the tribes was a bigger contribution by Sartar than the roads.

[Ynneadwraith]

51 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

In the case of the Roman Empire in Constantinople, they were pretty darn successful in limiting trade in silk.

Interesting! I didn't know about the Eastern Roman Empire and silk prohibition. The Romans, in many ways, were pretty exceptional in terms of State capabilities. Especially compared to states on the level of complexity of Sartar. That's also a good few thousand year past the Bronze Age (though Glorantha seems to be its own thing really).

It would probably be relatively easy for a Bronze Age palatial economy where the majority of goods are procured and redistributed through a central state, but I don't actually see many of those in Glorantha.

51 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

Now, there is also the argument that you don;t need to impose an embargo if you can just say 'There's a whole lot of bandits, and they are all your problem'.

That sounds more like it. Revoking the King's protection to certain types of travellers. That would increase the price of good carried by Etyries merchants as they'd need to procure their own protection, but again it's not like the King has a police force guarding the roads doing most of the heavy lifting. Merchants will already be procuring their own protection on the road.

That's if the King is so minded to do so. As Erol says the king at the time is a Lunar puppet, so probably not...

On the other hand, Sartar is a Silk Road kingdom (essentially). Perhaps their rulers do understand the vital nature of trade to their wealth, and do invest what resources they have in making the roads as safe as they can for merchants. This might not be much, but you could expect to find caravan guards in the employ of the King (of in the employ of his subordinates).

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Trade is almost always disrupted and has often been the root cause of conflicts and takes a while to get back to normalcy. Roads are fearful, policing is left to the locals besides important shipments. Any disruption of important trade is punished by reprisals against the mostly innocent noncombatant public who are sacrificed.

Oh absolutely. It's definitely not going to be a fun situation for merchants! Or people who get caught up in reprisals.

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The thought was while Sartar is actively being invaded the ruler of Sartar isn't going to come out and say don't attack any Lunars who appear to be traders as they are under my protection? I just don't agree with that. YGWV of course.

Ah I get what you're saying. I agree that during the active invasion all gloves are off, though I could see it swinging both ways. Either:

• There's popular anti-lunar sentiment and the King does nothing to protect lunar-looking caravans
• There's popular anti-lunar sentiment and the King does what he can to protect trade (because he actually understands that trade=wealth for their polity)
• There's no popular anti-lunar sentiment, and caravans just avoid areas of active conflict

Pre-modern warfare doesn't happen over a 'front' like the World Wars. It's a lot more localised. So you'll have an army spread out across a given frontage, usually split into manageable portions and given different routes to march along. There will be a 'foraging' party that can spread out along a wider frontage (foraging here being a colloquialism meaning raiding country-folk for food). That army will be headed down a major travel route towards a city it wants to capture.

Everywhere else would probably be largely unaffected, and thus trade caravans can move as usual (for a given definition of 'as usual').

This set of articles explains how armies moved brilliantly, if you're interested.

Edited January 18 by Ynneadwraith

[Ynneadwraith]

I do agree with your assessment of Glorantha's metals network. It's something unlike anything we've had in the real world, and just as I'm cautioning people not to apply WW2 thinking to pre-modern societies I also shouldn't be relying too heavily on using real-world mechanics for Gloranthan situations where they don't really apply!

Edited January 19 by MOB

[Erol of Backford]

13 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

redistributed through a central state

What would be some basic examples of this, interested in reading up on it. Honestly never thought of this besides maybe from the old AH Republic of Rome game with the armements, grain and ship building concessions.

Curious as to how any of it would relate to the Western Trader Princes, their coming and going to Nochet and of course any shipbuilding along the Heortland Plateau coast...

[Ynneadwraith]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What would be some basic examples of this, interested in reading up on it. Honestly never thought of this besides maybe from the old AH Republic of Rome game with the armements, grain and ship building concessions.

Curious as to how any of it would relate to the Western Trader Princes, their coming and going to Nochet and of course any shipbuilding along the Heortland Plateau coast...

My understanding (and I'm not an expert!) is that various Bronze Age societies used what's called a 'palatial economy' (or sometimes 'temple economy' or 'temple state economy'). This is where there's a centralised elite + bureaucracy that collects all (or almost all) of the agricultural produce people create, then redistributes it back to people for consumption (presumably evolving from previous shared storehouse setups). The temple/elites will take a cut, which they use as a sort of 'investment capital' for building their wealth.

Because the centralised elites are the ones with the main access to capital, they are the ones conducting trade between different organisations, and commissioning the production of non-essential goods like weapons and jewellery. This arrangement is propped up by the concept that the central bureaucracy can manage resources more efficiently than commoners (especially with things like collective earthworks for irrigation), and concepts like the 'divine right' of the folks in charge to rule (usually couched as being the foremost servants of the gods).

I like to think of it as Stalinism. Centralised management of the economy, with elites on the top syphoning off production for their own needs (and becoming fabulously wealthy doing so). No real method to independently acquire things you can't make yourself, other than convince temple officials that you need it (lots of our written artefacts are letters of petition to temple authorities to get irrigation works done and stuff like that). Colossal cult of personality.

Some of the interesting points to be aware of if you're thinking about the Trader Princes:

• It will be the elites who are doing the trading. There is no independent merchant class. Trade will be conducted by temple officials tasked with procuring goods by the elite (so it's the elites making the decisions about what gets bought and sold).
• Elites will also commission production, so I'd expect their armies had state-provided arms (so probably of poorer quality as the elites are less concerned with personal protection seeing as it's not the folks buying armour who are doing the dying).
• The status of the elites will be heavily tied up in the temple. This is the sort of setup that produced 'god-kings' in the real world, where the head of state is seen as the living representative of the gods in the world. You might find them being a high earth priest, or even seen as the living representative of Barntar or something (agriculture is big business). If harvests fail, they tend to rather quickly get replaced with someone more favoured by the gods.

How strictly societies followed this model is a matter of debate, and appeared to vary between cultures. Mycenaeans seemed to be on the stricter end with heavy temple control, whereas we know there was at least some semblance of a 'merchant class' in 1750bc Akkad (where Ea-Nasir's complaint tablet if from), though it's also likely that he was a member of the temple bureaucracy conducting trade rather than an independent trader.

Edited January 19 by Ynneadwraith

[radmonger]

In Glorantha, the temple state thing is mostly a Solar and Earth thing, via the cults of Lokarnos and Asrelia respectively. Lokarnos is the wagoneer who moves goods and wealth between kings and temples. They carry trade without themselves trading. Asrelia is the extrapolation of the collective clan granary to a scale where no-one can know everyone.

The Issaries cult has a more individualist perspective, perhaps representing Storm's obsession with freedom, perhaps a concession to playability, or perhaps a relic or the Middle Sea Empire. Or, likely, all three.

One of the Lunar innovations is bringing, in the form of Etyries, individualist trade to Dara Happan and Peloria.

I think the Trader Princes are more going in the other direction. They are traders who became so wealthy they owned a city, and could afford to hire Pralori mercenaries to control it. The relationshio between the version of Malkionism they follow, and the Issaries cult in general, probably has a lot of interesting things to be said about it.

Sartar was a Prince who traded. So why is he never described as a Trader Prince?

 

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, radmonger said:

One of the Lunar innovations is bringing, in the form of Etyries, individualist trade to Dara Happan and Peloria.

I'm not sure that "individualist" is the right way to describe it. Etyries is a tributary arm of the Lunar Empire - she offers no "neutral grounds", unlike Issaries, and likely controls particular monopolies for which the empire gets its cut.

[radmonger]

The empire getting a cut of what a merchant sells is different from the empire owning everything in the wagon in the first place.

If Asrelia is temple state communism, Etyries might be regarded as mercantilism. 

[Erol of Backford]

15 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

(or almost all)

Good point that anyone actually working in the soil will manage to take or hide some of the produce most of the time.

15 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

There is no independent merchant class.

But the Elites do not get their hands dirty and so in most cultures there is a merchant class who actually moves the goods, makes the set up for the deals the Elites take part in no?

15 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

If harvests fail, they tend to rather quickly get replaced with someone more favoured by the gods.

Would they be replaced as in "sacrificed" and or sent to the netherworld by the congregation in the Heortland and or Sartar? Did this happen in the past IIRC those on the Heortland Plateau ceased with blood sacrifices and went to baked goods shaped like the creature they were to sacrifice? I want to say this was the Aeolians but can't recall where I read it... I recall we had lamb cake at Easter when I was young rather than butchering a lamb?

11 hours ago, radmonger said:

If Asrelia is temple state communism, Etyries might be regarded as mercantilism.

So the Travels of Biturian Varosh are a story of late stage capitalism? Wait, that can't be correct as there is no presence of generalized wage labor in Glorantha is there?

I've never played in a campaign where there was inflation, supply and demand cost elevations of course, rural versus urban... keep going back to the Egyptian grain concession in times of say a Roman drought...

Grain conessessions makes me wonder if Mallia tries to infect the Heortland granaries prior to the surge of scorpionmen from the Jab Hills? Maybe her followers do this as a favor to some merchants who try to corner the grain market on the Plateau and they are actually illuminated ogres posing as Varosh cousins or fellow cult members!?

Trade discussion leads to Monty Python... what % of a crop would be given to the Aeolians by the Heortland Plateau's Orlanthi in taxes before any Lunar invasion?

   

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

Did this happen in the past IIRC those on the Heortland Plateau ceased with blood sacrifices and went to baked goods shaped like the creature they were to sacrifice? I want to say this was the Aeolians but can't recall where I read it...

I don't think there ever was any blood sacrifices in Heortland. 

2 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

But the Elites do not get their hands dirty and so in most cultures there is a merchant class who actually moves the goods, makes the set up for the deals the Elites take part in no?

There are certainly wagoneers, carters, porters, and drovers with any merchant caravan. Wagoneers and carters in many places will be Lokarnos worshipers. Porters might be Lodrili, Orlanthi, or others. Drovers might well be Orlanthi. The merchants will be Issaries as they have the skill in communication and creating neutral market grounds. And the merchants will also likely have Lhankor Mhy scribes with them.

In the cities, the Issaries merchants run the markets. Shopkeepers and the like will be crafters and worship deities such as Ernalda, Gustbran, etc.

6 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

what % of a crop would be given to the Aeolians by the Heortland Plateau's Orlanthi in taxes before any Lunar invasion?

There's no state per se, so this is not a tax-based economy. There will be a % of crops and animals that are given in tribute to the temples and clans, and then some of that used and some stored. The Aeolians aren't a ruling class - they tend to be concentrated in the Esvular cities and towns down south. So Heortlings would not be sending tribute to them, but to the temples and clan chiefs. 

While Belintar ruled, some percent of tribute went to Belintar's Governor, but primarily through the temples.

[radmonger]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So the Travels of Biturian Varosh are a story of late stage capitalism? Wait, that can't be correct as there is no presence of generalized wage labor in Glorantha is there?

Late bronze age capitalism. The earliest known coins date to the very end of the bronze age, just before the Sea Pirates show up. Though of course any mismatch between Glorantha and historical Earth can hardly be called an anachronism.

Once you do have coinage, it is a small step to wage labour. You pay the Sun Dome Temple in wheels, and a file of guards show up. While they are working for you, their obligations to the temple are discharged by your payment. They still need food and board. Which you can provide directly, or just give them some guilders and have them sort themselves out.

Which they can do, because Sartar is largely a cash economy, at least outside and between clans. Of course, most people are working locally, for their own clan or temple, so don't generally get cash wages. A lot of cults say they will cover room and board, which covers the case where they are working for the cult, but not locally.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/sartars-transformation-of-the-economy/

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think there ever was any blood sacrifices in Heortland.

Of sacrificial beasts, most certainly. Of humans (or other sentients), unlikely outside of Chaotic cults such as Krarsht or Bagog.

 

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The merchants will be Issaries as they have the skill in communication and creating neutral market grounds. And the merchants will also likely have Lhankor Mhy scribes with them.

Kings and warlords may well have a semi-nomadic routine to overseeing their holdings, traveling in state with lots of  received gifts, collected tax, and gifts to their more loyal followers.

Diplomacy usually is carried by the exchange of valuable gifts (of the kind Biturian Varosh carries at the start of his narrative).

The Malkioni make little distinction between those who trade and those who rule and organize. For the Orlanthi, the role model of the king is less about diplomacy and a lot more about martial and/or magical prowess (something the Malkioni have outsourced to other castes).

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Aeolians aren't a ruling class - they tend to be concentrated in the Esvular cities and towns down south. So Heortlings would not be sending tribute to them, but to the temples and clan chiefs. 

Aeolian talars do seem to control traditional chieftains and Orlanthi peasants in Esvular in terms of tax flow.

Aeolian farmers seem to cluster in Esvular or Bandori lands, around their cities, as do Aeolian fisherfolk. Aeolian craftsfolk (of the Worker caste) may have spread throughout Kethaela, with a large community just outside of Nochet (where they appear to control the brick-making?). They do seem to rake in more primary production from outside of their group than other populations in Kethaela, which might make them look as some form of gentry.

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

presence of generalized wage labor in Glorantha

I suppose that any location likely has a daily rate for labor and could be paid in coin.

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Once you do have coinage, it is a small step to wage labour.

Of course we have Wheels, agree 100%. Must have been sleepy last night...

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Which they can do, because Sartar is largely a cash economy, at least outside and between clans.

Had not thought about this much as we are always discussing livestock, grain, wine, beer, soldiers, etc. at least when Lunar taxes are the item. Between clans payment for say a large number of horses in silver, what have you makes sense in many situations.

24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Kings and warlords may well have a semi-nomadic routine to overseeing their holdings, traveling in state with lots of  received gifts, collected tax, and gifts to their more loyal followers.

Very much like the Japanese processions to Kyoto but its to collect in Glorantha whereas its to force the warlord to send money travelling with the entourage as well as getting the taxes.

Makes me wonder the God-King would likely have his taxes brought to him rather than traveling the 6ths collection? That is unless he needed to vacation somewhere. Snorkeling at Dry Tortugas anyone, I mean Ironfort?

Where do we find reefs if at all along the Heortland Coast? Do we need to go south of Kenstone, maybe 3 Step, what about Seapolis?

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

(something the Malkioni have outsourced to other castes)

But are the nobles the most magically inclined? Yes knights/soldiers for physical weapons combat but are always felt the nobles were even more magically capable then any of the priests that were not nobles as well?

36 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Aeolian craftsfolk (of the Worker caste) may have spread throughout Kethaela, with a large community just outside of Nochet (where they appear to control the brick-making?).

Where might this be? Is it like right outside the walls? Are these glazed bricks and can colors or even wall murals be made to order? (I didn't read my Nochet book yet... sadly.) The Kiln is in the city but I have not looked in detail.

(Makes me wonder do dwarves make and use ceramics... new thread.)

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Very much like the Japanese processions to Kyoto but its to collect in Glorantha whereas its to force the warlord to send money travelling with the entourage as well as getting the taxes.

The Sartarite model has the City Rexes pretty much stationary, and the royal palace of Boldhome isn't just for absentee ostentation, either, but I wonder whether King Sartar ever stopped traveling his realm, and how much his successors did outside of overseeing their building projects.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where do we find reefs if at all along the Heortland Coast? Do we need to go south of Kenstone, maybe 3 Step, what about Seapolis?

My mapping of the intertidal and permanently submerged areas of the eastern Mirrorsea Bay sadly has not advanced a bit in the last months. I have plenty of scenario seeds and sandbox entries waiting to be detailed.

That said, IMG there are children of Veskarthen trying to raise their heads above the sea bottom or the water level much of the time, but not unopposed. There are shattered pieces of land remaining from Worcha's onslaught underwater, possibly including Golden or Storm Age settlements fallen or glided into the seas, maybe one hanging almost sideways from the bedrock that fell into the water now providing shelter for a pod of Ludoch. There are mussle banks and sandbars accumulating from the play of currents and tides, and also destroyed again. There are corals in the Mirrorsea Bay, though no barrier reefs (yet), but part of the Building Wall magic may have been related to coral reefs growing.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

But are the nobles the most magically inclined? Yes knights/soldiers for physical weapons combat but are always felt the nobles were even more magically capable then any of the priests that were not nobles as well?

The magical and fully literate caste among the Aeolians are the zzaburi, with the nobles using Orlanthi magic instead - possibly becoming rune lords or rune priests of Orlanth, Issaries, Humakt or the Earth goddesses in their roles as rulers, traders, administrators and judges.

 

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where might this be? Is it like right outside the walls? Are these glazed bricks and can colors or even wall murals be made to order? (I didn't read my Nochet book yet... sadly.) The Kiln is in the city but I have not looked in detail.

Meldektown sits among the clay pits south of the walled city of Nochet and is home to one of the greatest urban populations of Aeolians in Kethaela, possibly greater than Mt. Passant and quite likely greater than in Vizel or Refuge. The Aeolians share  the suburb with adherents of other Malkioni denominations and certainly also a significant number of non-Malkioni. See Harald Smith's Nochet - Queen of Cities for details and the map.

[Erol of Backford]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

possibly greater than Mt. Passant and quite likely greater than in Vizel or Refuge

Nochet is without a doubt. Queen of Cities...

I just glanced at all the kilns... in Glorantha "China" must be called "Esrolia". I assume there is a good bit of "earthen-ware" and that it is favored over Kralorelaian ceramics but not sure if the dwarvish ceramic engines surpass it in precision...

It'll take a month to get through all the material in the book. It's like an AP class on Constantinople or something like that! 

So likely the bricks are made at the southwest outskirts of the city whereas the pottery, ceramic utilitarian goods are made in the kilns. Ceramic blades, arrow heads, etc with all the magic available in Glorantha must be able to be found in Nochet?

Knowing the earth goddess has strong influences across the Holy Country would the building styles of Nochet, both old and new have a good amount of influence on the larger urban centers of the Heortland Plateau? At least for the more permanent structures made of stone or masonry, concrete even if the dwarves assisted? There are details evident in many of the urban dwellings across Sartar, similar columns, arches, vaults, etc. but if you look at Clearwine, for example its more enclosed, possibly due to the colder or slightly colder climate?   

[Erol of Backford]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

mussle banks

Made me think of potential fish farms along the Syphon, especially near Backford...

The earliest evidence of fish farming dates back to before 1000 BCE in China. The Zhou dynasty (1112-221 BCE), then the politician Fan Li, around 500 BCE, were the first to describe carp, a symbol of good luck and fortune, as being farmed for food. I mean why not?

Ocean-based aquaculture is forecast to have the greatest potential for meeting future consumer demand for seafood products, and the U.S. soybean industry is evaluating the potential for soy product use in the diets of many of the major farmed marine fish and shrimp species worldwide.

So we used cotton husks to make feed pellets for catfish farms what grown on the Heortland Plateau would be a byproduct that could be used to feed fish?

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Nochet is without a doubt. Queen of Cities...

I just glanced at all the kilns... in Glorantha "China" must be called "Esrolia". I assume there is a good bit of "earthen-ware" and that it is favored over Kralorelaian ceramics but not sure if the dwarvish ceramic engines surpass it in precision...

It'll take a month to get through all the material in the book. It's like an AP class on Constantinople or something like that! 

So likely the bricks are made at the southwest outskirts of the city whereas the pottery, ceramic utilitarian goods are made in the kilns. Ceramic blades, arrow heads, etc with all the magic available in Glorantha must be able to be found in Nochet?

Bricks are made in Kalava district, too - that's where all the kilns are and the smoky haze in that area is constant. (Now Nochet has a lot of stone which is constantly reused in buildings, but a lot of recent buildings are undoubtedly made of brick and then painted over, but more likely to collapse.)

There are likely some kilns in Meldektown, but privileges largely go to those in the city not outside.

What is outside in Meldektown are the clay pits. The folk of Meldektown cut the clay and bring it into the city for use in the kilns there. 

Esrolia has a lot of stone quarries and the like, too, so I expect arrow heads and the like may well be from flint quarries scattered about. But you can find most anything in Nochet if there's a market to sell it.

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Knowing the earth goddess has strong influences across the Holy Country would the building styles of Nochet, both old and new have a good amount of influence on the larger urban centers of the Heortland Plateau?

Yes, buildings are pretty similar across Esrolia, Sartar, Heortland, and even New Pavis. (Recommend getting Martin Helsdon's Temples and Towers as that shows standard house layouts and forms, and variations across the region. One particular difference is in roof slope - New Pavis is flat, Esrolia a moderate angle, Sartar and Heortland steeper to shed rain and snow.

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

What is outside in Meldektown are the clay pits. The folk of Meldektown cut the clay and bring it into the city for use in the kilns there.

Surprised not to see some kilns near the Meldektown pits for mundane item such as brick but again there may be some there but on a smaller scale? I supposed we send cotton to China and other locations for processing as labor is less expensive there IIRC and to the example inNotchet, production doesn't need to be near the source of raw materials I suppose?

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, buildings are pretty similar across Esrolia, Sartar, Heortland, and even New Pavis.

Good to know, makes it easier to show samples...

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Martin Helsdon's Temples and Towers

I'll check it out for sure.

Thank you all once again for the great input.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Surprised not to see some kilns near the Meldektown pits for mundane item such as brick but again there may be some there but on a smaller scale?

There could well be, but on a smaller scale, or possibly due to city privileges (and them being outside the walls), they can only use (and never sell) within Meldektown. Now that might be a boon for the Capratis and du Turmerines for building, but it keeps the Aeolians from competing against Nochet-based Houses who have long-term privileges/rights. (In many ways, you can think of Houses acting like "guilds" - and some are effectively guilds - with long-term privileges granted by Queens of the past, and jealousy guarded.)

 

[Erol of Backford]

51 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Now that might be a boon for the Capratis and du Turmerines for building, but it keeps the Aeolians from competing against Nochet-based Houses who have long-term privileges/rights.

Right now I am leaning towards the Capratis having ties to Backford and Durengard, partly from old zine articles...

Did you have thought's on the fish pens? I am starting to think Backford from 1600 on is greatly expanding its markets, salt, fish, nearby mines, ties to Nochet. Now they just need tow path or something of the sorts to get back out to the bay and they are in business!

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Did you have thought's on the fish pens? I am starting to think Backford from 1600 on is greatly expanding its markets, salt, fish, nearby mines, ties to Nochet.

Quite feasible to have nets to catch the fish heading towards the mouth in the Footprint. Pens could be a challenge since the flow is always towards the Footprint (perhaps greater or lesser depending on the tidal push plus incoming rainwater off the plateau.

It all gets disrupted after 1616 when the Wolf Pirates come hunting. Backford is probably a great place to load up on salt and dried fish before their great expedition in 1621.

[Joerg]

Rather than fish pens, my idea of coastal Kethaela are fish fences oriented against the quick flow. In most of Kethaela that would mean catching the outgoing flood of the falling Blue Moon, but the orientation of the Syphon current will orient the fences in the opposite direction.

I wonder whether the falling Blue Moon will actually increase the uphill current in the Syphon, as the pull would also befall the river's head into the Chaos hole in Foulblood Forest.