Images Of Women In RQG/Glorantha

[svensson]

13 hours ago, Memestream said:

I hate to necrobump this thread, but I feel as if though this information may have some value to someone.

I was just on my way to a new hobby store and I very much had RQG corebook in my hand, figuring that I would leave it sitting out on one of the tables while I caroused with whatever patrons I might encounter and spread the word to anyone who showed interest in the book.

Then I remembered it's full of pictures of topless women, and I had to carefully reconsider this strategy. Indeed, I had to carefully reconsider the wisdom of bringing the book into a place of business altogether.

I mean I am (unfortunately) grown, and I want to play with others who share my pitiful condition. Furthermore, I don't find the art objectionable in the least, and I don't want to play with anyone who feels otherwise. I love the art, I think it's tasteful and iconic, and there's an obvious(tired even) argument going back to Michaelangelo and beyond concerning depictions of nudity. 

But I remain enamored with the notion that my chances of having that conversation with some random child's parent(s) are exactly zero. 

Don't even bother telling me there are ways to minimize the risk, I know there are, but they all put me at a greater than zero chance if I bring that book into a hobby shop. I'm not even saying I want it to change, this whole post is made purely for the sake of providing a data point.

I can obviously still (gently) bug people I encounter about Runequest and Glorantha, but it's yet another hurdle to introducing people to the game that hadn't even dawned on me until I was about to set out the door.

I've got a table full of women at the moment that I'm refereeing. One of them is my niece and another is my grand-niece. This lends a certain familial concern to the issues you bring up.

My grandniece is in her early teens. One of the things I'm trying to subtly teach her is that looks are not substitute for ability, that she doesn't have to be pretty to be taken seriously or to be considered a worthwhile woman.

So when we got the RQG core rules for the family, I also showed her some archeological pictures of things like Donu mother icons and Minoan dresses, etc. Then I showed her some of the artwork from Conan and other 'sword and sandals' authors. I explained the differences, showing that the archeology was respectful of women as mothers and nurturers and how Conan [etc] treated women as sex objects and rewards. Then I showed her the RQG book again and we looked over the stats of Yanioth [the Earth priestess], Vasana [the Vingan warrior woman] and Harmast [the Issaries warrior-merchant] to compare the actual statistics. She twigged to the fact that while Yanioth and Vasana were pretty [excellent CHA stats], they were every single bit as formidable as both Harmast and Vostor. They were specialists [Yanioth being a better magician than Vasana] but her power was easily the equal to anyone's. 

Smart girl, right?

I hope the lesson sticks with her and I hope that she remembers that a man showed her the respect she's due by taking an hour to explain all this.

I find the nudity in all the current RQG books appropriate to the setting. In point of fact, there are more illustrations of semi-nude Ernaldans than there are of Uleria worshipers as the Goddess of Love [including carnality]. But I do expect that if a stranger sees some of the artwork, I'll have to explain it. I don't mind doing so, if only to point out the difference between a Bronze Age priestess and Hyborian slave girl.

EDIT: BTW, I have nothing whatever against Conan, or Fafrd, or any of the other pulp heroes. I grew up on them and enjoy the books to this day. But they are artifacts of their times and their treatment of women is changing in subtle re-writes and edits. In 1920 it was perfectly fine to luridly describe a female character as a reward for heroism or manliness. A hundred years later and that doesn't sell as well as it used to.

Edited August 29 by svensson

[Memestream]

10 hours ago, Martin said:

As for bringing the book into a hobby store...does the hoby store not already stock any RPG boks, CCGs, or video games?

The book ships in a plastic wrapper. I haven't seen an unwrapped copy of RQG in any game store.

Furthermore, I live in the Southerly region of the United States. I don't think the images are going to traumatize anyone, I just live in a highly litigious society informed by somewhat puritanical values concerning nudity. Think about that for a bit in light of the aspersion concerning naivete. Then think about talking to a Southerner who humored their kid with a trip to the comic shop while the image of a Teelo Norri (a barely pubescent maiden according to the material), cutting her own throat as she stands there in a loincloth, lays bare on the table in front of you.(I know this is in TLW but still...)

"Well it's an esoteric reference to the way innocence yields to the challenges of life in the corrupted material world, much like the story of Jesus of Nazareth..." I, a 38 year old childless helering reply.

Nah, not a conversation I want to have in that context under ANY circumstances.

15 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

Really? How many are there?

I don't know, but I am going to count for you right now.

Full page 22, Ernaldan on 51, Low Fidelity disc on 83, Full page 268, BB Gor 289, Eiritha 292, Ernalda 293, M Gor 299, Teelo Norri 302,  Shaman 362, Ernalda 424.

So eleven, which excludes more than one bare breasted figure with incomplete anatomical depiction. 

Then again, maybe this is all very clever because my first thought was to buy the quickstart box.

[Memestream]

12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Les Voyages d'Alix, there's full male nudity.

If I were born speaking a romance language I feel confident the thought never would have occurred to me. In fact it didn't until I literally stacked up the books on the way out the door and saw TRG standing atop the red bat.

[M Helsdon]

4 minutes ago, Memestream said:

If I were born speaking a romance language I feel confident the thought never would have occurred to me. In fact it didn't until I literally stacked up the books on the way out the door and saw TRG standing atop the red bat.

As an Anglo-Saxon (with a dash of Scot, Dane and perhaps Iceni), and having spent plenty of time wandering galleries and museums (from an early age) and later ancient sites in North America, Europe, Egypt, India, what is on display in the RuneQuest books is, with a very few exceptions, very tame. Where it isn't, it is intended to be unsettling, and only The Lunar Way book seems to satisfy that criteria. 

The fact is that these aren't children's books, and they aren't intended to be, and a setting can't satisfy every subculture without becoming very bland. The Bronze Age label should serve as a warning that when entering Glorantha, you are visiting a world with different values. In this regard, Glorantha is potentially far less disturbing than certain other game settings.

[Memestream]

It's absurdly dispiriting when people echo your own point back to you in apparent disagreement.

[Nozbat]

15 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Only one that is worth it, but for some reason the book always falls open to that page.....

.. it’s the same with biology books in school .. they always fell open at human reproduction pages. A fascination for and forbidden subject that encapsulates the double standards.

13 hours ago, Martin said:

 Tip of the hat to my name sake Martin H for including a look and learn image...vivid flashback to the 1970 and 1980s  🙂

I smiled at that.. my Grandmother used to buy me Look and Learn every week.. some wonderful articles that definitely fired my curiosity for history.. oh and I liked the Rise and Fall of the Trigan Empire. I also was inspired to grow my hair like the artist interpretation of Jason (of Argonauts fame). Thanks Martin.

Edited August 29 by Nozbat
Missing text

[Nozbat]

Ohh.. only half my text came out there

[Nozbat]

I’d hesitated to post on this topic as most of the recent posts have been men and I’d be interested in their views

2 hours ago, Memestream said:

I just live in a highly litigious society informed by somewhat puritanical values concerning nudity

As @Memestream has said, I can’t help feeling a lot of attitudes to nudity are almost an exclusively Anglo-Saxon issue mixed with our western interpretation of Judeo-Christian religion and a large dose of double standards that fetishise and deplore women. 
Strong women have always been in trouble with the male dominated societies. They get burnt as witches, their roles diminished to wives or consorts, sometimes their names are not even mentioned or expunged from history or they get rebuked for breastfeeding in public ..all because it makes men uncomfortable.

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Bronze Age label should serve as a warning that when entering Glorantha

Martin is absolutely correct but I’m not sure about the warning. Even a walk through the heavily edited Vatican museum will show that our Bronze Age ancestors celebrated their bodies and used them in rituals and worship of their goddesses (and gods). 
Nudity was not condemned nor had it any apparent negative consequences, seen from the evidence of early stone carvings of Irish Sheila-an-Gigs to classical sculptures of naked men and women. The artwork of cave drawings, the chalk figures cut into hillsides such as the Cerne Giant or the Penis and Vulva badges of medieval pilgrims invoking the ‘magical’ nature of genitalia to ward off plague, disease or disaster.
This is our history. It’s there and just because our prudish, double-standard present day societal view dominates shouldn’t make us reach for the fig leaf to cover what we think might be offensive.

Glorantha seeks to engage and recreate that age and so should we. 

 

[svensson]

Let me sum much of this up....

1. Nudity and sex have ALWAYS been part of Glorantha. In RQG they just quit making inferences and are actually saying so.

2. That sexuality is tied to traditional human sexual roles going back to before the written word: motherhood, creation, nurturing, and fertility.

3. Nothing particularly graphic is being portrayed. There isn't any overt sexual activity. By and large it's the breasts of an Earth priestess. The only representation of an erect phallus that I can remember offhand is iconic imagery of Lodril.

4. There are no mechanics within the game that require any sexual content. Even Uleria's Erotocomatose Lucidity Rune Spell obliquely refers to the act and concentrates on the spell effect.

5. We are a fanbase that's getting older by the day. Many of us have been around since the 70s [self included]. Society has changed a LOT since This Thing Of Ours got started. We have to roll with the changes if we wish to grow our hobby.

6. Lastly, given the extent of internet porn, I sincerely doubt that anybody can look at RQG as 'graphic' or even outrageous. There are games out there that go WAY past Glorantha's 'full stop' line in portraying women, sex, and sexuality. We're not even in the same ball park as 'Vaginas Are Magical', ok?

Have I hit everyone's high points here?

EDIT [because I missed one of my own points]:

7. We want RQG to grow and generate more fans, more support, and more grogs like us. Does Chaosium have to careful with presenting the human body? Believe it or not, I don't think so. They've hit the mark they were shooting for, IMHO. Would I give a copy of the RQG Core Rulebook to someone under the age of, say, 13 year old? Not without parental approval first. Would I teach the kid the RQ game, even if I had to sanitize it a little? Abso-frikkin'-lutely.

Edited September 12 by svensson

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, Memestream said:

It's absurdly dispiriting when people echo your own point back to you in apparent disagreement.

Which wasn't what I was doing, if you were replying to me. 

[svensson]

@Nozbat About your comment regarding nudity attitudes being Anglo-Saxon and Judeo Christian...

Let me respectfully point out that that Chaosium's target audience is, by and large, a Western one and that Christianity is inextricably linked to Western civilization. The target demographic the hobby is looking to sell to considers sex and sexuality to be a titillating subject at best. Certainly there is a wide range of reaction to depictions of overt sexuality, but at Chaosium's authors and marketing people have to take the worst reactions into account when publishing. The last thing RQ or Chaosium needs is a reputation for producing 'porn games', or being lumped in with those publishers that do produce it.

As you point out, Glorantha does a better-than-average job of portraying women in a range of roles, from the almost burqa'ed Sun Domers in Prax to the warrior women of the Heortlings to ruling the roost in Esrolia. Politically and socially, women are every bit the equals of men in most societies in Genertela, most especially within the Esrolia-to-Genert's Wastes bracket that most of the publishing is focused on.

But that does not mean that a certain care doesn't need to be exercised. I think Chaosium has done a pretty good job with that so far [if you look back earlier in this thread I expressed some concerns about that a couple of years ago].

Edited August 30 by svensson

[Ali the Helering]

I think that I am also concerned that we are focusing on (ahem) very external matters here.  Sex and sexuality have been matters of debate and discussion within Glorantha from the beginning. (more or less)

I remember opening Cults of Terror and thinking 'there's a goddess of rape? WTAF???'

Forget pictures, the written word is far more risky for people approaching RPGs with a 'sweetness and light' attitude.  Even My Little Pony has had some very disturbing themes over the years.  People have to learn about reality eventually.

[Nozbat]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Even My Little Pony has had some very disturbing themes over the years.

It did? Thankfully my daughters were never in to my Little Pony preferring role models like Babeestor Gor

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Chaosium's target audience is, by and large, a Western one and that Christianity is inextricably linked to Western civilization.

I’m not sure the target audience is necessarily western and Christian..it just happens to be mostly published in English but there are thriving Chaosium communities in Asia..but I’d defer that answer to Chaosium staff.

2 hours ago, svensson said:

The target demographic the hobby is looking to sell to considers sex and sexuality to be a titillating subject at best.

The issue is not really about sex or sexuality.. it is about the depiction of nudity and more importantly how it is interpreted by the viewer. In modern Anglo-Saxon culture nudity has connotations of guilt and shame, something not to be done in public or even in same sex changing rooms. It is therefore linked in people’s minds with something that is wrong or with sex.

Modern European views on nudity and an openness to discuss it and practice it de-mystifies it. Go to a park in Berlin, any beach in France or Italy, a sauna, etc etc.. all have unremarked nudity. That openness to bodies helps to break the link between nudity and sex. All are majority ‘Christian’ countries but they are not concerned about common same sex showers and being naked in public.

Sex is titillating and is meant to be. It is about pleasure and sometimes procreation. Sexuality is about feelings or identity. It is about how you communicate and about being true to your self, your espoused gender and/or orientation.

2 hours ago, svensson said:

olitically and socially, women are every bit the equals of men in most societies in Genertela

Absolutely..if only it was the same in the real world.. but I also think it would be good to hear how people who have different orientations or gender identities view how everyone is portrayed rather than just CIS men.

 

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

remember opening Cults of Terror and thinking 'there's a goddess of rape? WTAF???'

I have to admit, I still really struggle with sexual violence in any form, Ali and make sure it doesn’t happen in my games

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Forget pictures, the written word is far more risky

I’d agree with that. This is where care is needed. There is a social, political, environmental, identity interpretation to all written word, with the emphasis on interpretation. 

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

Let me respectfully point out that that Chaosium's target audience is, by and large, a Western one and that Christianity is inextricably linked to Western civilization.

If art in the English language RQ editions upsets some people - they'd best not look at the Japanese editions....

[svensson]

54 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

If art in the English language RQ editions upsets some people - they'd best not look at the Japanese editions....

But let's be clear here... most of Chaosium's sales are West of Urals, and for that matter West of Warsaw. And those are the sensibilities that have to be respected. Sure there are significant sales in Japan and [I think] Korea, but Glorantha's bedrock market is the UK and North America.

As I say, what we have in print right now is a good spot insofar as art and text are concerned. It's true to everything I understand Greg wanted and it's true to the source material [Gilgamesh, Iliad, etc.] without being overtly lurid or... 'descriptive'.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I'm not sure that any Glorantha fan (and most of customers at least those who buy 2 or 3 books, not those who did a mistake the first time) has any issue with nudity in the books.

So explaining what, we, in this forum, see the nudity in the books doesn't make any sense to me.

The issue, depending on the area we are, people (the others, not us) may have sensitbility on this. That's not only countries. That's not only one religion (and that's not because you believe in one religion that you reject or tolerate the same things than others who believe in the same religion than you)

It's clear that you may meet more difficulties (and sometimes you may meet violence or more ...) the point should be how to react then. Or how to prevent it.

 

Now we are talking about nudity but.. I remember some discussion where some said  slavery should be treated with caution (and some may consider it should not be treated at all). Same with broos activities..

I don't remember anyone answering "What, how ridiculous is this, you can do it, every where, every time"

No, no one answered it, so why about nudity ? It is sensitive for some people. A lot of people. Not me, probably not you in this forum, but in the world, and as the world is very little now, anywhere, in any area, you may find some difficulties (more in some area, less in others of course).  But probably more than 30 years ago and probably less than 300 years ago

And, even if I have no more issue - personaly - to play it than to see a chest, I understand it, because sensibility depends on a lot of things (culture, religion - and religious "level" of importance -, family history, personal history, traumas, fashion, social network algorithm,  etc..)

So I have no answer, no good advise to @Memestream, I understand your issue.  Maybe choose some book with illustration of warriors cutting the head of their ennemies, with large geyser of blood, because unfortunately, it is less disturbing that seeing a living chest.

 

Glorantha is very dark in my opinion, but somewhere, and that's what I like with this world, it is like irl and it offers the opportunity to show how monstruous can be people who consider themselves as "good".  It shows how "chaotic" are those who consider themselves as ennemy of chaos, it shows how unfair are thos who consider themselves as just

Of course it needs a lot of maturity to "play" it. Of course it is not for all and depending on the table, Glorantha is/should be more or less "cleansed". But it shows it

 

 

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Thankfully my daughters were never in to my Little Pony preferring role models like Babeestor Gor

Go, sisters!

3 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I have to admit, I still really struggle with sexual violence in any form, Ali and make sure it doesn’t happen in my games

I play with an audience in their 30s who will very firmly tell me if I transgress boundaries!  However, in a world where you can inflict someone with Madness, Mindblast or a Blood Lung disease spirit, I do have issues with relative moralities.

40 years ago the Vietnam RPG Recon incited much debate due to the (in-game!) use of napalm.  Someone wrote into the Dragon asking how it was any worse than fireballing a village full of kobold women and kids.  I still don't have a good answer😵‍💫

Sexual violence is despicable but real, as is child prostitution, slavery and torture.  As in the RW, so in Glorantha, but it doesn't have to be grossly depicted.  Thed is a perversion of fertility deities, and (as an ordained minister) I would say that there are many RW perversions of deity to justify horrendous acts.  I don't feel the need to describe them in detail either!

[Ali the Helering]

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Maybe choose some book with illustration of warriors cutting the head of their ennemies, with large geyser of blood, because unfortunately, it is less disturbing that seeing a living chest.

Absolutely!

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I remember some discussion where some said  slavery should be treated with caution (and some may consider it should not be treated at all)

Hence the mutilation of Sun Dome society in recent years, to make them more heroic and acceptable in our milieu.  Good guys took slaves in the Bronze Age, I am afraid.  There was no anti-slavery campaign back then (as far as we know).  

[Memestream]

@M Helsdon

I beg your pardon in that case. I simply felt frustrated by what appeared (to myself) to be a series of responses which affirm that the content within the books is tame; as if to suggest that I had ever stated a position to the contrary. 

To put it plainly, I find these images to be quite remarkably positive in their portrayal, especially given that they are bolstered by what I consider to be an equally positive portrayal of femininity (and gender dynamics at large for that matter) within the setting.

That doesn't mean that I feel empowered to broadcast that message on the terms I mentioned though.

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

So I have no answer, no good advise to @Memestream, I understand your issue.  Maybe choose some book with illustration of warriors cutting the head of their ennemies, with large geyser of blood, because unfortunately, it is less disturbing that seeing a living chest.

And this speaks to the authentic meaning behind my feedback to begin with. Of course there are more objectionable depictions in media that children are regularly exposed to, but that's not relevant to the dilemma I mentioned.

I personally will not carry that sword into a hobby shop, and as I am self-aware enough to know that no thought which passes through my mind is truly unique to myself, I suspect at least one other has responded similarly to the same predicament and elected to represent it here in this thread because it hadn't been mentioned yet. 

Edited August 30 by Memestream
Fighting with a gadget to format properly

[M Helsdon]

12 hours ago, Memestream said:

I beg your pardon in that case. I simply felt frustrated by what appeared (to myself) to be a series of responses which affirm that the content within the books is tame; as if to suggest that I had ever stated a position to the contrary. 

I read your initial post as potentially critical, so we've had a misunderstanding.

There are really only two solutions:

• Use a black marker pen to hide images that might cause offence in public. Not my personal choice.
• Provide a warning of potentially adult content. This might simply be a postit stuck to the cover.

I place a Warning on all my books in the Jonstown Compendium which may have problematic content. So far, I have only had one complaint about the art.