Images Of Women In RQG/Glorantha

[Pnick]

Posted elsewhere:

'What is it with the new RQG and the obsession with female breasts. I thought the hobby had grown up. Funny to see that it actually has in contemporary D&D, but in the game that is hailed as more sophisticated every other picture of the female form is now topless.'

Edited April 23, 2021 by Pnick

[Ali the Helering]

I would agree with you entirely if - ah but that's the problem, if.  'If' is at the heart of any RP, and Gloranthan cultures are frequently based on a RW culture with a bit of 'if' added.  Therefore anything deriving from parts of the Mediterranean, South or South East Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, Polynesia..... I hope you get my point.

Going topless may indicate quasi-historical verisimilitude, not an obsession with female breasts.  My question would rather be - Why are so many of the guys so heavily bundled up?  Where's the bronzed flesh, the Conan-esque 'naked save for a loincloth'?  A bit of a nod towards those of us who are Helerings, hey?

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Pnick said:

sophisticated every other picture of the female form is now topless

Ah, but it is arty topless, not smutty topless.

[Dirk Le Daring]

I'm not one to usually get into a discussion like this, but......

The artwork is fantastic. There is no smut. It very much captures the "ancient" feel that the game is set in.

Get over it. This is not D&D. (And you may rail against me for this, and I do not care, but I object to the whole six gender thing that panders to the wokeness pervading our culture today). I play these games to escape that shit, but can ignore it and say "that is not MY Glorantha" too easy. Maybe you should do the same.

I'll link a bonus for you and all who visit this thread, some of the finest sculptures ever created by the hand of man, and many from the ancient world....... There is nothing sexual about them, it is about capturing the human form, and doing so as accurately as possible. This is art at it's finest.... ( I hope the link works, if not will attempt to edit)

 

 

No Words - A Journey Through Sculptural Mastery Across the Ages - YouTube

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Dirk Le Daring

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Pnick said:

but in the game that is hailed as more sophisticated every other picture of the female form is now topless

when I see an ernalda follower in Esrolia/Sartar, yes I expect to see her topless

when I see an ernalda follower in Suncounty of Prax, I expect to see her breast absolutly hidden

 

But what I expect too is to see little apples, big apples, little pears, big pears, tired apples or pears. Not only pretty girls with so big breast than at 30years old, her back would be broken by gravity (oups no gravity in Glorantha, they are saved !).

And I expect too, to see men and women without muscles , with fat or not, tall, big ,small, thin, beautifull or ugly, old or young, sad or happy.

 

I expect to see people in all their variety but in their local, gloranthan settings, don't care what is good or not in a local earth settings (and why choose this one more than this other one as referential ?). 

[Sid Vicarious]

2 hours ago, Pnick said:

Posted elsewhere:

'What is it with the new RQG and the obsession with female breasts. I thought the hobby had grown up. Funny to see that it actually has in contemporary D&D, but in the game that is hailed as more sophisticated every other picture of the female form is now topless.'

That, Comarade, is a bourgeois indulgence that serves only to distract the proletariat from the truth; agrarian rent capitalism is baked into the RQG rules. "Nobles live by the work of others." And yet not a word in the mainstream media...

You dont need an Orlanthi to know which way the wind blows. 

(Apologies to Jose Maria Sison and Bob Dylan)

[Mameluco]

I agree with @French Desperate WindChild, more variety on body shapes is always welcomed. Not every earth cultist is a super-model.

But, in fairness, Chaosium is improving on this aspect. The upcoming GoG is a good example. Its art shows male nudity and people with different complexions.

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, Mameluco said:

But, in fairness, Chaosium is improving on this aspect. The upcoming GoG is a good example. Its art shows male nudity and people with different complexions.

Absolutly,

 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Sid Vicarious said:

You dont need an Orlanthi to know which way the wind blows.

Correct. A humid finger is sufficient, but an Orlanthi divination can confirm.

[svensson]

So, a couple things here.

First off, I am an Old Geek. Started RPGs in the 70's. I've seen the female body portrayed in fantasy art all sorts of ways, from covered head to toe in bulky robes to hentai. Yes, there is a problem in this hobby with bimbo armor. There are two reasons for this: tradition and the simple fact that sex sells. Tradition in that willing, compliant females are supposed to be a warrior's reward goes all the way back to 'Gilgamesh'... for every Eowyn there's fifty Red Sonjas. My wife used to work for a major RPG producer and constantly complained of the level of 'sugar-cookie' armor used in order to sell products. And nowadays, I have a table full of girls [niece and grand-nieces] teaching the One True Way of Runes, and I wish to teach them that women warriors are covered up and that there's no combat bonus involved with cleavage.

Compared to other offerings in its industry, RQG is actually very good. Women are portrayed as the full equal of men, involved in every aspect of life from hearth to craft to priesthood to politics. This is excellent progress when considering many other FRPGs.

The artwork is designed to be Bronze Age, so Ernalda is intended to be voluptuous... a fertile source of life in any and all respects. The Gor Sisters, not so much... they're portrayed pretty unattractively, which is sensible given their roles. In the artwork, it's clear that the artists took historical images of the ancient Donu /Gaia pottery figures, Minoan frescoes, and depictions of Ishtar and Isis as their inspirations. This is wholly appropriate.

This does NOT mean that women in Sartar go about with their tits hanging out. It means that Sartar cultural standards are supposed to be different to modern Western cultural standards. Sartar doesn't have internet porn. Sartar warriors never refer to the woman raising his children as 'the little woman' or 'the ball and chain'. Sartar doesn't have Instagram models shaking their ass for money.

Where I agree with much of the board is this.... the armors often depicted on women are stupid. Boob plate is dumb. How do I know this? Because I used to fight as a 'heavy fighter' in the SCA, the largest medieval reenactment group in the world. I've watched many women get into armor over the years and EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. who ever used boob plate complained that getting swatted in the boob by a near miss hurts like Hell. The point of a breastplate is to not only provide rigid protection for thrusts [spears, arrows, etc.] but to spread the impact of other weapons over a larger area thereby protecting the ribs and heart /lung unit. Yanioth and her shield-sisters should be portrayed in a bronze cuirass that curves over the bosom, deflecting impacts to the shoulder and hip anchor points.

A proper female warrior should look like this SCA squire.

Note, I found this picture in a search of 'modern women in armor'. I have tried to find out who she is, but have been unable to. Otherwise, I would happily credit her.

According to Photobucket/Pintrest credit, the fighter is Lady Valora. The red belt she wears indicates a that she is the squire to a knight, but this can and does change. THANKS to Kloster for finding the reference.

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by svensson

[svensson]

13 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Correct. A humid finger is sufficient, but an Orlanthi divination can confirm.

SO much lead line... MUST NOT TELL JOKES!

[Kloster]

22 minutes ago, svensson said:

Compared to other offerings in its industry, RQG is actually very good. Women are portrayed as the full equal of men, involved in every aspect of life from hearth to craft to priesthood to politics. This is excellent progress when considering many other FRPGs.

The artwork is designed to be Bronze Age, so Ernalda is intended to be voluptuous... a fertile source of life in any and all respects. The Gor Sisters, not so much... they're portrayed pretty unattractively, which is sensible given their roles. In the artwork, it's clear that the artists took historical images of the ancient Donu /Gaia pottery figures, Minoan frescoes, and depictions of Ishtar and Isis as their inspirations. This is wholly appropriate.

This does NOT mean that women in Sartar go about with their tits hanging out. It means that Sartar cultural standards are supposed to be different to modern Western cultural standards. Sartar doesn't have internet porn. Sartar warriors never refer to the woman raising his children as 'the little woman' or 'the ball and chain'. Sartar doesn't have Instagram models shaking their ass for money.

Completely agree.

[Kloster]

25 minutes ago, svensson said:

Note, I found this picture in a search of 'modern women in armor'. I have tried to find out who she is, but have been unable to. Otherwise, I would happily credit her.

According to Pinterest anf Google: Lady Valora tou Ayiva image by isabellaevangelista - Photobucket

[svensson]

5 minutes ago, Kloster said:

According to Pinterest anf Google: Lady Valora tou Ayiva image by isabellaevangelista - Photobucket

THANK YOU! I really have been looking for that.

[Jape_Vicho]

Whoever posted that needs to have a look at the ideologies underneath the human bodies a little bit more. Yes, RQG art shows a lot of female bare breasts, but it shows them as equal to the male ones, and that is very good. Normally you see the male nude figure as an image of power and the female one as an image of arousal, and this does not happen at all at RQG, by the gods watch thw picture of Vasana fighting spirits! She's nude and intimidating, not a figment of christian modesty in there, just a naked warrior. There are of course other images where the nude female figure intends to convey sensuality, but those are strictly restricted to godesses or women that actually WANT to convey that, as they are fertility oriented deities or cultists, and it's not exclussive of women. 

Also the statement says more about whoever posted it than about the art itself, as he/she is the one who is fixating on the female breasts, and thinking they have an intrinic differentiated value, and not on the huge amounts of pictures of male breasts and females covered in clothes/armor.

I do agree OTOH that more of body types would be really nice (one of the greatly forgotten bodies, the buffed women, we already have aplenty in RQG, and that is nice), but I trust on it improving, having seen the Cult's Book art.

Also I don't get the comparison with DnD but whatever, DnD fanboys will do anything to try to shit at other games for some reason.

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Jape_Vicho

[svensson]

24 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Whoever posted that needs to have a look at the ideologies underneath the human bodies a little bit more. Yes, RQG art shows a lot of female bare breasts, but it shows them as equal to the male ones, and that is very good. Normally you see the male nude figure as an image of power and the female one as an image of arousal, and this does not happen at all at RQG, by the gods watch thw picture of Vasana fighting spirits! She's nude and intimidating, not a figment of christian modesty in there, just a naked warrior. There are of course other images where the nude female figure intends to convey sensuality, but those are strictly restricted to godesses or women that actually WANT to convey that, as they are fertility oriented deities or cultists, and it's not exclussive of women. 

Also the statement says more about whoever posted it than about the art itself, as he/she is the one who is fixating on the female breasts, and thinking they have an intrinic differentiated value, and not on the huge amounts of pictures of male breasts and females covered in clothes/armor.

I do agree OTOH that more of body types would be really nice (one of the greatly forgotten bodies, the buffed women, we already have aplenty in RQG, and that is nice), but I trust on it improving, having seen the Cult's Book art.

Also I don't get the comparison with DnD but whatever, DnD fanboys will do anything to try to shit at other games for some reason.

 

That's pretty much what I was getting at.

Ernalda is voluptuous, she is Fertility, the Living Earth.

Babeester Gor is buffed out, threatening, angry. She cares nothing for beauty or arousal because that is not her remit. She is the Warrior Earth, Protectress, and Vengeance Seeker

Maran Gor is fat, but it is not a decadent fat... her body fat shakes like the angry Earth she represents. You could almost say that Maran Gor is the angriest spirit of reprisal of all.

And while the Husband Protector Gods are not depicted like the historical Frey or Apollo in their fertility aspects [male organ erect], neither is Ernalda portrayed 'openly displayed' either.

As for the comparison to DnD, any discussion of a fantasy game includes the big dog in the room. Whether we as RQ /Glorantha fans like it or not, whether we can argue against it, Dungeons and Dragons is the industry standard by which all other FRPGs [and role playing games generally no matter the genre] are judged. I mean, in real life there other standards of beauty than the one posed by Victoria's Secret and the Western fashion industry. Some of them are quite beautiful. But at the end of the day, the body type on the runway in Milan or in the pages of a Victoria's Secret catalogue is still the one we judge all others by.

Edited April 23, 2021 by svensson

[Jeff]

Many Gloranthan cults see absolutely nothing wrong with male or female nudity (typically associating it with the gods) and the art reflects that. There are far more bare-chested men than women depicted in the art. Some artists are better at doing a broad range of body shapes than others. and the art reflects that. The Coming Storm and the forthcoming Cults and Sartar books have some great examples of different body shapes.

,  

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

So, a couple things here.

First off, I am an Old Geek. Started RPGs in the 70's. I've seen the female body portrayed in fantasy art all sorts of ways, from covered head to toe in bulky robes to hentai. Yes, there is a problem in hobby with bimbo armor. There are two reasons for this: tradition and the simple fact that sex sells. Tradition in that willing, compliant females are a warrior's reward goes all the way back to 'Gilgamesh'... for every Eowyn there's fifty Red Sonjas. My wife used to work for a major RPG producer and constantly complained of the level of 'sugar-cookie' armor used in order to sell products. And nowadays, I have a table full of girls [niece and grand-nieces] teaching the One True Way of Runes, and I wish to teach them that women warriors are covered up and that there's no combat bonus involved with cleavage.

Compared to other offerings in its industry, RQG is actually very good. Women are portrayed as the full equal of men, involved in every aspect of life from hearth to craft to priesthood to politics. This is excellent progress when considering many other FRPGs.

The artwork is designed to be Bronze Age, so Ernalda is intended to be voluptuous... a fertile source of life in any and all respects. The Gor Sisters, not so much... they're portrayed pretty unattractively, which is sensible given their roles. In the artwork, it's clear that the artists took historical images of the ancient Donu /Gaia pottery figures, Minoan frescoes, and depictions of Ishtar and Isis as their inspirations. This is wholly appropriate.

This does NOT mean that women in Sartar go about with their tits hanging out. It means that Sartar cultural standards are supposed to be different to modern Western cultural standards. Sartar doesn't have internet porn. Sartar warriors never refer to the woman raising his children as 'the little woman' or 'the ball and chain'. Sartar doesn't have Instagram models shaking their ass for money.

Where I agree with much of the board is this.... the armors often depicted on women are stupid. Boob plate is dumb. How do I know this? Because I used to fight as a 'heavy fighter' in the SCA, the largest medieval reenactment group in the world. I've watched many women get into armor over the years and EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. who ever used boob plate complained that getting swatted in the boob by a near miss hurts like Hell. The point of a breastplate is to not only provide rigid protection for thrusts [spears, arrows, etc.] but to spread the impact of other weapons over a larger area thereby protecting the ribs and heart /lung unit. Yanioth and her shield-sisters should be portrayed in a bronze cuirass that curves over the bosom, deflecting impacts to the shoulder and hip anchor points.

A proper female warrior should look like this SCA squire.

Note, I found this picture in a search of 'modern women in armor'. I have tried to find out who she is, but have been unable to. Otherwise, I would happily credit her.

According to Photobucket/Pintrest credit, the fighter is Lady Valora. The red belt she wears indicates a that she is the squire to a knight, but this can and does change. THANKS to Kloster for finding the reference.

 

I actually disagree with you Sven. That armor reflects the fight assumptions and rules of HEMA and the SCA. I doubt you can legally have combats where people fought like in much of ancient history, with no protection for the vitals (which were often deliberately exposed), helmets with crests and other protrusions, and breastplates with pectorals. But it would be interesting to see what folk would say if that was more common.

[Jeff]

Just now, Jeff said:

I actually disagree with you Sven. That armor reflects the fight assumptions and rules of HEMA and the SCA. I doubt you can legally have combats where people fought like in much of ancient history, with no protection for the vitals (which were often deliberately exposed), helmets with crests and other protrusions, and breastplates with pectorals. But it would be interesting to see what folk would say if that was more common.

And I RARELY disagree with Sven!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

My main objection to the artistic presentation is purely practical.  Why aren't these half naked adventurers, of either sex, quickly perforated and killed in their first melee in RQs very crunchy, deadly combat system?

If my archer sees the enemy clan's topless Ernaldan (or Nathan)  summoning something nasty, she's taking two arrows to the chest.

With cuirboli armor she would likely survive.  No armor she could be in deep trouble.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Rodney Dangerduck

[David Scott]

24 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

My main objection to the artistic presentation is purely practical.  Why aren't these half naked adventurers, of either sex, quickly perforated and killed in their first melee in RQs very crunchy, deadly combat system?

Because combat is rare for that very reason. Non-combatants don't get involved in combat. The Ernalda merchant in my game has no armour, doesn't need it. Look at Leika's Chalana Arroy companion Hollybright, did she go into snakepipe hollow armoured up?

24 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If my archer sees the enemy clan's topless Ernaldan (or Nathan)  summoning something nasty, she's taking two arrows to the chest.

That's fine on the understanding that killing another clan's Ernalda priestess is going to cause a huge problem for the archer who does it.

My players love the whole ransom system, it introduces a whole checks and boundaries system governing violence. 

 

[Kloster]

34 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

My main objection to the artistic presentation is purely practical.  Why aren't these half naked adventurers, of either sex, quickly perforated and killed in their first melee in RQs very crunchy, deadly combat system?

For the ancient greek, nudity was not a problem, and was even a religious obligation in some cases, but when going to war, they wore a cuirass or a linothorax. I believe Orlanthi and Ernaldans behave the same: Nude or partially nude if weather allows for it, but as covered as possible when a combat is expected.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Because combat is rare for that very reason. Non-combatants don't get involved in combat. The Ernalda merchant in my game has no armour, doesn't need it.

It's still a hard proposition for some players, though. Sure, the Earth priestess or merchant or healer may want to avoid combat, and may actively work towards that goal by negotiating with enemies, but the problem is that once combat does start, it can take a long time in a crunchy system like RQG. So the non-combatants end up being involved in combat, because that's more fun than watching people roll dice for 45 minutes. These non-combatants may get involved from a safe distance, using ranged weapons and ordering elementals around, but eventually some Tusk Rider is going charge at them and next combat they'll say "yeah I'm getting some armour on, last time I was lucky to get my leg re-attached".  Whether that's "player thinking" or what an actual Gloranthan would do is left as an exercise to the reader, but my point is that using a combat-oriented system like RQG (as opposed to, say, HQG/QW) does make a difference.

(arguably yes they could also learn to stay at a safer distance, get better at hiding to stealthily fire missiles and spells at the enemies, move around, get magical armour equivalent to a real amrour, etc... let's not debate the fine points of support roles in combat, I'm very bad at tactics anyway, but I know that most players want to stay involved in the scene)

Of the pre-gens, Yanioth and Vishi Dunn are, err, "correctly" wearing simple clothes. On the other hand, the merchant (Harmast) has access to pretty heavy armour, and the scribe (Sorala) also has decent armour. Harmast and Sorala probably only wear theirs when they specifically prepare for a dangerous mission, though, sticking to simple clothes for most of the time (and all my players would play them that way). This difference between these pre-gens maps pretty well with my own experience, where some players are OK going "all the way" with a character concept even if it's dangerous mechanically speaking, while others are more conservative and will always keep a combat option available. For example, in CoC, you typically have the historian who has points only in knowledge skills and nothing else, compared to the historian who hunts in his spare time, or does boxing to relax, or whatever, so that the player can be at least a bit involved in action scenes. I always have a mix of both the approaches in my games.

 

As for the OP: based on the little I know about the ancient world, breasts were indeed not uncommon, so seeing this in the art for an ancient-world-inspired game helps convey the tone of the setting to me. But I'm frankly disputing the claim that RQG's art is "obsessed" with boobs and that "every other picture of the female form is now topless". I count 8 occurrences of visible boobs in the RQG rulebook, and more than half of them are stuff like "Babeester Gor's boobs" in the cults list. Not only are those illustrations directly inspired by actual real-world art, but also that's a really weird thing to get hung up on. Surely Babeester would not appreciate it. Those are definitely not "boobs hurr hurr" illustrations meant to increase sales.... so I wonder who's really "obsessed" here, huh? I did not even blink at those boobs.

I'll also second Jeff that I loved the variety of body shapes in The Coming Storm -- that was great work from the artists and art directors.

Edited April 23, 2021 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

On the other hand, the merchant (Harmast) has access to pretty heavy armour

I don't consider Harmast as a merchant:  he is a fighter (see his sword skill) , he is a noble, of course he has good armor. Issaries is not only merchant , he is explorer, herald, negociator.

For the rest I agree with you: it will depend on the player: What @David Scott describes are players I dream to meet 🙂

but sometimes realty is not aligned with dreams, desperatly 😛

 

[svensson]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

I actually disagree with you Sven. That armor reflects the fight assumptions and rules of HEMA and the SCA. I doubt you can legally have combats where people fought like in much of ancient history, with no protection for the vitals (which were often deliberately exposed), helmets with crests and other protrusions, and breastplates with pectorals. But it would be interesting to see what folk would say if that was more common.

First off, thanks for the compliment [that you rarely disagree with me].

OK, my comments about women's armor construction are completely separate of any HEMA /SCA safety requirements or armor regulations. They're based on the premise of 'what is armor designed to do'. Armor is designed, first and foremost, to protect the wearer from strikes from the four basic attack modes [bash, hack, slice, and stab].

In a Bronze Age context, you're absolutely right: there was also a certain intimidation factor involved. Crests, 'fierce face' masks, etc. decorated helmets in order to show social rank and intimidate opponents. However, much of this decoration still didn't descend to the torso area. Embossing or casting of a breastplate showed rank, but there was little to no projections to catch blows.

Let's be blunt here. There is little physical archeological evidence of women professional warriors, although there is a large body of lore, anecdotes and legends about them. There is no denying that women warriors existed in Earth's history. I'm simply saying that their armor was similar to men's, with suitable modification for their bosom. To put it plainly, there wouldn't have been plate cuirasses that isolated each breast. It's simply less effective as a piece of armor.

There is almost no archeological evidence for 'boob plate'. It's a fantasy artist's contrivance to announce to the audience, 'look, it's a girl', and it's one that we can encourage artists to do away with.

Edited April 23, 2021 by svensson