Images Of Women In RQG/Glorantha

[svensson]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

My main objection to the artistic presentation is purely practical.  Why aren't these half naked adventurers, of either sex, quickly perforated and killed in their first melee in RQs very crunchy, deadly combat system?

If my archer sees the enemy clan's topless Ernaldan (or Nathan)  summoning something nasty, she's taking two arrows to the chest.

With cuirboli armor she would likely survive.  No armor she could be in deep trouble.

With your summoner, that really depends on how much Protection and Shield she has up vs. how much Speedart /Firearrow /Multimissile you archer put into it. Like a lot of combat in RQ, it's a POW vs. POW contest as much as it's a mundane one.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If my archer sees the enemy clan's topless Ernaldan (or Nathan)  summoning something nasty, she's taking two arrows to the chest.

I guess that depends on the enemy. As others have said, killing an Ernalda priestess is a bad idea.

Which raises an interesting question. It makes sense that Orlanthi don't target the enemies' priestesses. Did the Lunars break this tradition, and did it come as a shock to the Oralnthi? Was it like the British in the War of Independence, when suddenly the Americans were sniping our officers? "It's his job to be up there on a horse directing his troops, what did you shoot him for? Bad form!"* Or, did the Lunars choose not to violate this taboo for their own reasons? Taking out the traditional peacemakers might not be a good long term option for pacifying the population.

* I don't know how much literal truth there is to this, it also coincided with the invention of the rifled barrel making long distance sniping an option, so that also added to the surprise. Still, the myth may be more MGF than the truth here.

Edited April 23, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[svensson]

40 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I guess that depends on the enemy. As others have said, killing an Ernalda priestess is a bad idea.

Which raises an interesting question. It makes sense that Orlanthi don't target the enemies' priestesses. Did the Lunars break this tradition, and did it come as a shock to the Oralnthi? Was it like the British in the War of Independence, when suddenly the Americans were sniping our officers? "It's his job to be up there on a horse directing his troops, what did you shoot him for? Bad form!"* Or, did the Lunars choose not to violate this taboo for their own reasons? Taking out the traditional peacemakers might not be a good long term option for pacifying the population.

* I don't know how much literal truth there is to this, it also coincided with the invention of the rifled barrel making long distance sniping an option, so that also added to the surprise. Still, the myth may be more MGF than the truth here.

There's plenty of anecdotal information about magical duels and 'heroquest warfare', so no, I don't think there's any prohibition against targeting priestesses in open war.

Obviously, there are limits to this. Violating a temple is a Very Bad Idea. And no civilized opponent would target a CA /Teelo Norri healer in the midst of their duties. Neutral heralds who observe the battle but remain unarmed and apart from the fray are probably inviolate as well. I know of no specific mention of the non-combatant status of an Issaries worshiper in the Herald role, but it seems reasonable and likely.

None of this prevents these people from being hurt in battle, however. Battles are chaotic by their nature and once battle is joined all kinds of things happen. If a healer gets hit and slain by a stray missile, that's part of the risk they take. But specifically looking for the medic is the kind of thing that'll get you outlawed very quickly. Even in a decadent society like the Lunar Empire, the willful slaying of a healer is the kind of thing that only a few people could get a way with without severe consequences.

I think the litmus test is twofold:

- Is the priest/ess unarmed and declaring themselves a non-combatant?

- Is the priest/ess measurably contributing to the battle in a 'direct damage' way? By this I mean that, with the specific exception of Healing, is the cultist armed and acting in a military manner... Offensive and defensive magics count, as do summonings and acting as a 'POW battery' like some magicians in the Lunar Battle Mages.

Edited April 23, 2021 by svensson

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, svensson said:

There's plenty of anecdotal information about magical duels and 'heroquest warfare', so no, I don't think there's any prohibition against targeting priestesses in open war.

Obviously, there are limits to this. Violating a temple is a Very Bad Idea. And no civilized opponent would target a CA /Teelo Norri healer in the midst of their duties. Neutral heralds who observe the battle but remain unarmed and apart from the fray are probably inviolate as well. I know of no specific mention of the non-combatant status of an Issaries worshiper in the Herald role, but it seems reasonable and likely.

None of this prevents these people from being hurt in battle, however. Battles are chaotic by their nature and once battle is joined all kinds of things happen. If a healer gets hit and slain by a stray missile, that's part of the risk they take. But specifically looking for the medic is the kind of thing that'll get you outlawed very quickly. Even in a decadent society like the Lunar Empire, the willful slaying of a healer is the kind of thing that only a few people could get a way with without severe consequences.

Of course, broo exist

[svensson]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Of course, broo exist

And Trolls, and Tusk Riders. Hence my statement about 'civilized' opponents.

[svensson]

I moved the question of Heralds in Warfare over to the Glorantha forum as it seemed more of a cultural milieu question than an RQ rules one.

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, svensson said:

I think the litmus test is twofold:

- Is the priest/ess unarmed and declaring themselves a non-combatant?

- Is the priest/ess measurably contributing to the battle in a 'direct damage' way? 

I would also consider it a difference if the healer is in the back, saving the lives and limbs of the wounded that get dragged there, or if she’s running around in the front, getting warriors up on their feet in the line (making a direct contribution to the ongoing fight). In HQ at least, there was the Bevara Combat Medic Ernaldan healer subcult, who packed a shield for that kind of frontline healing.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Ernaldans are not Chalana Arroy.

They could easily summon a Gnome to kill me and my comrades.  The exact situation I postulated in the "my archer would shoot them" scenario.  I dislike this attempt to make the two cults equally sancrosact.

If the Ernaldan is clearly a non-combatant healer (perhaps dressed in white, not green?) then they should not be deliberately targeted by civilized opponents.

[Eff]

I sort of assumed that generally speaking people are titty-out where people would be stripped down to a tank and shorts in contemporary Western society, or else where you'd be dressed up a little (the "Minoan Snake Goddess" way), and that people who are likely to get stabbed aren't going topless unless they have a good reason for it. 

[svensson]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Ernaldans are not Chalana Arroy.

They could easily summon a Gnome to kill me and my comrades.  The exact situation I postulated in the "my archer would shoot them" scenario.  I dislike this attempt to make the two cults equally sancrosact.

If the Ernaldan is clearly a non-combatant healer (perhaps dressed in white, not green?) then they should not be deliberately targeted by civilized opponents.

I agree with you to an extent. I think it comes down to the personal conduct of the Ernaldan in question.

Is she in the back healing the wounded and unarmed, possibly clearly marked as a healer [white robes, whatever else have you]? Then she's probably alright.

But if she's up front 'healing in the scrum' so to  speak, then it's very likely that she'll be getting some unwanted attention.

[svensson]

9 minutes ago, Eff said:

I sort of assumed that generally speaking people are titty-out where people would be stripped down to a tank and shorts in contemporary Western society, or else where you'd be dressed up a little (the "Minoan Snake Goddess" way), and that people who are likely to get stabbed aren't going topless unless they have a good reason for it. 

Well, here's the thing...

Glorantha doesn't have the nudity taboos that Earth's Western cultures do. There's literally nothing that prevents anyone gettin' naked, smearing Woad or Rhino Fat on themselves and having at it. And there is very few things quite as terrifying to a Gloranthan warrior as having some screaming lunatic split your shield in half... especially if that warrior just took your best shot right in the belly and all you did was 'scratch his paint' 🤣😁

And if a Glorantha products artist decided to portray that in a female warrior, I'd be fine with it. But the anatomically correct but tactically dumb armor could go the way of the dodo bird without me complaining much.

[Eff]

Just now, svensson said:

Well, here's the thing...

Glorantha doesn't have the nudity taboos that Earth's Western cultures do. There's literally nothing that prevents anyone gettin' naked, smearing Woad or Rhino Fat on themselves and having at it. And there is very few things quite as terrifying to a Gloranthan warrior as having some screaming lunatic split your shield in half... especially if that warrior just took your best shot right in the belly and all you did was 'scratch his paint' 🤣😁

And if a Glorantha products artist decided to portray that in a female warrior, I'd be fine with it. But the anatomically correct but tactically dumb armor could go the way of the dodo bird without me complaining much.

I will always plump for muscle cuirasses but for the breasts, (for matriarchal societies where ceremonial armor could conceivably be celebrating the body in that fashion) but generally the artistic depiction is far away from a ludicrously exaggerated bosom in bronze with reliefs of demons getting trampled and anchoresses bodily ascending to the heavens and so on all over the obviously absurd thing. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

33 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would also consider it a difference if the healer is in the back, saving the lives and limbs of the wounded that get dragged there, or if she’s running around in the front, getting warriors up on their feet in the line (making a direct contribution to the ongoing fight). In HQ at least, there was the Bevara Combat Medic Ernaldan healer subcult, who packed a shield for that kind of frontline healing.

Question: in Heortling society, is there a convention that fallen front line fighters who get healed

1. Return to the battle line?
2. Retire to the rear to "fight again another day"?

That would affect my attitude, as an opponent, to the honorable brave frontline combat healer.  Saving fallen foes from bleeding to death is fine.  Getting that huge berserk back up to full hit points to continue the battle, not so much.

[svensson]

25 minutes ago, Eff said:

I will always plump for muscle cuirasses but for the breasts, (for matriarchal societies where ceremonial armor could conceivably be celebrating the body in that fashion) but generally the artistic depiction is far away from a ludicrously exaggerated bosom in bronze with reliefs of demons getting trampled and anchoresses bodily ascending to the heavens and so on all over the obviously absurd thing. 

A muscle cuirass is decorative but properly does what a cuirass is designed to do. Boob plate does not. All boob plate does is isolate a two nerve clusters and invite their pummeling.

And you know, I don't why the Hell I never thought of this before but boob plate is about as much sense in an actual fight as an 'erection codpiece' 🤣🤣😁😁

[Dr. Devici]

14 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Question: in Heortling society, is there a convention that fallen front line fighters who get healed

1. Return to the battle line?
2. Retire to the rear to "fight again another day"?

That would affect my attitude, as an opponent, to the honorable brave frontline combat healer.  Saving fallen foes from bleeding to death is fine.  Getting that huge berserk back up to full hit points to continue the battle, not so much.

I have a CA cultist in my game who puts herself at risk to do frontline healing. Enemy combatants have picked her up and carried her off the field for that reason.

[svensson]

16 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Question: in Heortling society, is there a convention that fallen front line fighters who get healed

1. Return to the battle line?
2. Retire to the rear to "fight again another day"?

That would affect my attitude, as an opponent, to the honorable brave frontline combat healer.  Saving fallen foes from bleeding to death is fine.  Getting that huge berserk back up to full hit points to continue the battle, not so much.

Well in the midst of a shield wall scrum, that is 'in the immediate battle area', you pays your money you takes your chances. And those Healers that move up to heal the active combatants are well aware of the danger involved. In a rulebook sense, if they fall victim to another warrior's Fumble Table results, well, that's just how that shadow cat hunts.

As to the question 'is it alright to specifically target a Healer who just cast Heal Body on the clan champion who required three men to put down', my inclination is to say 'no'. After all, your Healers are helping you too. But that could very well be a 'your Gloranthan mile may vary' kind of judgement.

[Shiningbrow]

Would an Ernaldan priestess target an Ernaldan priestess? (Or an initiate target a priestess)

What happened during the Battle of the Queens?

So, I think Ernaldans aren't as sacrosanct as has been suggested, but CAs definitely are by most human cultures (who are aware of them). 

[Nick Brooke]

An Ernalda priestess going Minoan on the battlefield while not also casting a one-point Inviolable Rune spell seems unlikely to me, but YGWV, I suppose.

[Joerg]

Are there cultures or regiments where male fighters put on boob cuirasses to signify that they are the forces of life? (in addition to dealing harm or deal out healing or other support magic)

Edited April 24, 2021 by Joerg

[Shiningbrow]

23 hours ago, Dirk Le Daring said:

I'm not one to usually get into a discussion like this, but......

The artwork is fantastic. There is no smut. It very much captures the "ancient" feel that the game is set in.

Get over it. This is not D&D. (And you may rail against me for this, and I do not care, but I object to the whole six gender thing that panders to the wokeness pervading our culture today). I play these games to escape that shit, but can ignore it and say "that is not MY Glorantha" too easy. Maybe you should do the same.

I'll link a bonus for you and all who visit this thread, some of the finest sculptures ever created by the hand of man, and many from the ancient world....... There is nothing sexual about them, it is about capturing the human form, and doing so as accurately as possible. This is art at it's finest.... ( I hope the link works, if not will attempt to edit)

 

 

No Words - A Journey Through Sculptural Mastery Across the Ages - YouTube

 

Some very good sculpting there! Amazing skill.

 

But disappointingly Euro-centric from only the last couple of thousand years 😞

[Joerg]

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But disappointingly Euro-centric from only the last couple of thousand years 😞

 

Iconoclast cultures and/or monotheistic religions which forbid or suppress depiction of the human body have the unhappy consequence of such art being discontinued or even destroyed in religiously apologized dementia.

Apart from that Euro-centrism, the video also focused strongly on stone as the medium. I didn't watch it for the whole time, but I don't recall bronzes, ivory, or even special stones like jade or agate, and no wood-carving, horn-carving or terracotta at all. Or just the constructive sculpting in less permanent material like wax that I presume these works were lifted from during their creation. Or architectural ornaments in stucco, or possibly even wattle-and-daub.

Decorative art usually is idealizing the subject, usually to the current preferences and cultural context, using artistic conventions of a genre. (Like e.g. sculpts of manga/anime artwork, or Barbie dolls.) There are occasional lapses into naturalism, like Akhenaten's short intermezzo, or naturalism with less-than-ideal proportions is used to make a point in contrast, like a satyr by Michelangelo using all the less than ideal body shape features of his model for illustrating the depravity of the subject of a satyr. Even Hieronymus Bosch only used deformed sinners when making a point, leaving the rest fairly pleasant to the eye (probably to encourage identification of the viewers).

 

Art has to be in a cultural context, too. Visiting an exhibition of an ethnographic collection from the age of Imperialism often lacks such context and is a mere accumulation of curiosities. (That goes for Roman copies of items from subject cultures, too...)

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Would an Ernaldan priestess target an Ernaldan priestess? (Or an initiate target a priestess)

What happened during the Battle of the Queens?

So, I think Ernaldans aren't as sacrosanct as has been suggested, but CAs definitely are by most human cultures (who are aware of them). 

OK, I thinks we need to clarify the discussion here between cult roles and battlefield roles.

If said Ernaldan Priestess is summoning Earth elementals, casting combat buffs [Earth Shield, Shield, Protection, whatever], and so forth, then she is considered a combatant and takes all the risks thereof.

If the Ernaldan is clearly unarmed, has taken no part in the combat, and is Healing only, then she has the social protections of a healer. This does not protect her from accidents or the 'slings and arrows of outrageous fortune' [pun entirely intended], but none may seek to harm her.

In open battle Sartar /Heortling Ernaldans and Chalana Arroy do not cast Inviolate, as battle is a recognized and natural part of life. As for Esrolians in that situation, that's a matter of discussion. YGMV.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Are there cultures or regiments where male fighters put on boob cuirasses to signify that they are the forces of life? (in addition to dealing harm or deal out healing or other support magic)

I have this vision of knuckleheads running around in 'erection armor' now. Thanks for that.....

[Dirk Le Daring]

51 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Some very good sculpting there! Amazing skill.

 

But disappointingly Euro-centric from only the last couple of thousand years 😞

Euro-centric..... What other culture has produced such fine sculptures ? And I'm not trying to be (insert anything you like here) Seriously though, show me an image of anything as beautiful in marble (which I do like the most) by anyone other than the Greeks or Romans. I'm willing to look and admire, but I have no knowledge of anything as realistic from anyone else. Sure, the Chinese and Japanese produced some great work, but is it as realistic ? As fine and true to form. I am not trying to take away from other works from those of other cultures, but credit where credit is due.

 

I especially love the veils, blows my mind that that can be depicted so well in stone....

 

[svensson]

41 minutes ago, Dirk Le Daring said:

Euro-centric..... What other culture has produced such fine sculptures ? And I'm not trying to be (insert anything you like here) Seriously though, show me an image of anything as beautiful in marble (which I do like the most) by anyone other than the Greeks or Romans. I'm willing to look and admire, but I have no knowledge of anything as realistic from anyone else. Sure, the Chinese and Japanese produced some great work, but is it as realistic ? As fine and true to form. I am not trying to take away from other works from those of other cultures, but credit where credit is due.

 

I especially love the veils, blows my mind that that can be depicted so well in stone....

 

Well, let's not ignore Indian, Thai, Chinese and Japanese historical sculpture. There are some magnificent works in those styles. No, they're not what we are used to as Western educated viewers, but that makes them no less impressive. The effort and craftsmanship of Angkor Wat alone matches or exceeds anything produced west of the Urals.