Images Of Women In RQG/Glorantha

[PhilHibbs]

53 minutes ago, svensson said:

I have this vision of knuckleheads running around in 'erection armor' now. Thanks for that.....

That's more a medieval thing.

p.s. you're welcome!

Edited April 24, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Dirk Le Daring said:

Euro-centric..... What other culture has produced such fine sculptures ? And I'm not trying to be (insert anything you like here) Seriously though, show me an image of anything as beautiful in marble (which I do like the most) by anyone other than the Greeks or Romans. I'm willing to look and admire, but I have no knowledge of anything as realistic from anyone else. Sure, the Chinese and Japanese produced some great work, but is it as realistic ? As fine and true to form. I am not trying to take away from other works from those of other cultures, but credit where credit is due.

 

I especially love the veils, blows my mind that that can be depicted so well in stone....

 

True, marble is a nice stone to work with for getting that smoothness. But notwithstanding that, as @svensson mentioned, there's some amazing sculpture in Asia that easily rivals the Greco-Roman shown in the video.

And for the purposes of this thread, really should be seen to be believed (and accepted, and admired!)

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I didn't watch it for the whole time, but I don't recall bronzes, ivory, or even special stones like jade or agate, and no wood-carving, horn-carving or terracotta at all.

Unfortunately not 😞 Just the marble...

[Oracle]

Are you sure, you're talking still about the OP's topic? To tell the truth, I think not ...

Get me right, the discussion is quite interesting, but deserves it's own thread clearly.

[Shiningbrow]

3 minutes ago, Oracle said:

Are you sure, you're talking still about the OP's topic? To tell the truth, I think not ...

Get me right, the discussion is quite interesting, but deserves it's own thread clearly.

If the images of women in RQ:G are representative of Glorantha, and Glorantha draws heavily upon depictions of women in various cultures throughout Earth's history, I'd say it's still the same topic.

[svensson]

7 minutes ago, Oracle said:

Are you sure, you're talking still about the OP's topic? To tell the truth, I think not ...

Get me right, the discussion is quite interesting, but deserves it's own thread clearly.

Us? Wander off track with a segue to the digression of the interruption? US? PERISH the thought! 😁

[Oracle]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If the images of women in RQ:G are representative of Glorantha, and Glorantha draws heavily upon depictions of women in various cultures throughout Earth's history, I'd say it's still the same topic.

Really? Most of the discussion on the previous page was about attacking Ernaldan priestesses, and if it's allowed or not.

Looking at this thread on the main page, I was surprised, that it run already over three pages. I thought, the OP topic wouldn't raise such an strong reaction in these times. So I had a look, and in fact my assumption was proved right in fact. Most of the discussion in the thread was not about the OP topic.

Ok, knowing the forum and its members for awhile now, I shouldn't have been surprised ...

But I will stop here, because otherwise I will hijack this thread for a third topic ...

Edited April 24, 2021 by Oracle

[Jeff]

Sven -

I've talked to our resident archaeologist and she thinks that high status women are as likely to have accentuated their female form as high status men were to accentuate their male form. A big problem is how few cuirasses have survived - if we then assume that high status women were less than one in a thousand, we might only ever find one or two.

That being said, this is thought to be the cuirass of a high status woman from the 11th to 8th century BC:

There might have been some interesting high status women's cuirasses made (although they are unlikely to have survived). Alexander the Great's half-sister Cynane is said to have fought in the front lines and killed an enemy in combat. Her daughter Adea Eurydice was trained by her in martial and masculine activities. She married Philip III (Alexander's half brother) and was likely the ruling monarch of the pair. If I recall there is an account of Adea leading soldiers into battle as a general wearing armor, while Olympias (who opposed her), inspired her troops attired as a maenad. Adea's soldiers deserted her for Olympias.

[PhilHibbs]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

... while Olympias (who opposed her), inspired her troops attired as a maenad.

I other words, "quite possibly dressed like the kind of RQG artwork that the OP is referring to"? Just going by the pottery that comes up on a Google search.

1 hour ago, Oracle said:

Looking at this thread on the main page, I was surprised, that it run already over three pages. I thought, the OP topic wouldn't raise such an strong reaction in these times.

I thought the opposite, "wow, this is going to run and run, and go nuts real quick". We've already had threads about this, here and in various Facebook groups. It's been pretty sensible so far, though, compared to my expectations. Well done us! 

Edited April 24, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Eff]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I other words, "quite possibly dressed like the kind of RQG artwork that the OP is referring to"?

I thought the opposite, "wow, this is going to run and run, and go nuts real quick". We've already had threads about this, here and in various Facebook groups. It's been pretty sensible so far, though, compared to my expectations. Well done us! 

Well, maenads characteristically wore furs- fawn skins, fox skins. So perhaps Olympias was actually fairly well-covered while waving her thyrsus about.

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, maenads characteristically wore furs- fawn skins, fox skins. So perhaps Olympias was actually fairly well-covered while waving her thyrsus about.

Actually we don't know what the attire was. But given the dislike the Athenians had for the "half-barbarian"Olympias, it may well have been like:

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Sven -

I've talked to our resident archaeologist and she thinks that high status women are as likely to have accentuated their female form as high status men were to accentuate their male form. A big problem is how few cuirasses have survived - if we then assume that high status women were less than one in a thousand, we might only ever find one or two.

That being said, this is thought to be the cuirass of a high status woman from the 11th to 8th century BC:

There might have been some interesting high status women's cuirasses made (although they are unlikely to have survived). Alexander the Great's half-sister Cynane is said to have fought in the front lines and killed an enemy in combat. Her daughter Adea Eurydice was trained by her in martial and masculine activities. She married Philip III (Alexander's half brother) and was likely the ruling monarch of the pair. If I recall there is an account of Adea leading soldiers into battle as a general wearing armor, while Olympias (who opposed her), inspired her troops attired as a maenad. Adea's soldiers deserted her for Olympias.

I searched for two hours on various keywords and this same item was the only 'boob plate' cuirass I could find. Given its uniqueness, I'm almost willing to relegate it to 'parade armor'. Several cuirasses from the Alexandrian successors era have been labeled as 'parade armors', especially in Seleucid Persia [gold leaf over very thin bronze], so there is some likelihood of that this is the case.

But I might be wrong. I'm not a trained archeologist and I freely admit that I have my biases on the subject.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

I searched for two hours on various keywords and this same item was the only 'boob plate' cuirass I could find. Given its uniqueness, I'm almost willing to relegate it to 'parade armor'. Several cuirasses from the Alexandrian successors era have been labeled as 'parade armors', especially in Seleucid Persia [gold leaf over very thin bronze], so there is some likelihood of that this is the case.

But I might be wrong. I'm not a trained archeologist and I freely admit that I have my biases on the subject.

Our trained archaeologist says that "parade armor" or "ceremonial armor" is a phrase used by modern historians when an outfit doesn't fit their expectations.

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

That being said, this is thought to be the cuirass of a high status woman from the 11th to 8th century BC:

A man made that armour what on earth is wrong with her breasts

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

A man made that armour what on earth is wrong with her breasts

That was my first thought ... A man who's only ever heard about women.

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

That was my first thought ... A man who's only ever heard about women.

i mean he did get the different boobs right, I'll hand him that. every woman has that one treacherous titty

[Ali the Helering]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i mean he did get the different boobs right, I'll hand him that. every woman has that one treacherous titty

Is that why tradition suggests that Amazon's severed it?

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Is that why tradition suggests that Amazon's severed it?

Plato or Herodotus [I forget which] claimed that Amazons removed their left breast so that it didn't interfere with archery.

[And yes, I have a whole slew of, um..., slightly inappropriate things to say about the man who thought THAT nonsense up]

[Ali the Helering]

45 minutes ago, svensson said:

Plato or Herodotus [I forget which] claimed that Amazons removed their left breast so that it didn't interfere with archery.

[And yes, I have a whole slew of, um..., slightly inappropriate things to say about the man who thought THAT nonsense up]

Aww... I was putting it down to ancient cosmology and a desire to destroy super-symmetry....

[Monty Lovering]

I think the imagery of women is pretty OK in Chaosium’s RQG publications.

I mean, look. Women wearing practical clothes or armour and standing like people. As opposed to what the hell and tilt hip.

Yes there are bare chests which means bare breasts with women. But most cultures didn’t sexualise bare breasts in the way the West has sexualised them to the extent they are regarded as sexual display no matter what the context.

As far as boob plate goes, the number of female warriors in periods where hard metal breast plates were a predominant for of armour was low.

In periods where reappraisal of graves identified as warriors is leading us to believe there were noticeable numbers of female warriors, the armour of the period (for example, maille) would be largely indistinguishable between male and female warriors.

In modern settings where women are fighting in hard contact fight sports it’s not a thing for the reasons already stated.

IMG there’s no size difference between male and female humans so in many cultures women warriors are commonplace.  

I think the only obviously female ‘armour’ IMG is the gold ceremonial armour d’amour of priestesses of Uleria. And everyone who grew up with Star Wars knows exactly what that looks like. 😜

 

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Monty Lovering said:

I think the imagery of women is pretty OK in Chaosium’s RQG publications.

I mean, look. Women wearing practical clothes or armour and standing like people. As opposed to what the hell and tilt hip.

Yes there are bare chests which means bare breasts with women. But most cultures didn’t sexualise bare breasts in the way the West has sexualised them to the extent they are regarded as sexual display no matter what the context.

As far as boob plate goes, the number of female warriors in periods where hard metal breast plates were a predominant for of armour was low.

In periods where reappraisal of graves identified as warriors is leading us to believe there were noticeable numbers of female warriors, the armour of the period (for example, maille) would be largely indistinguishable between male and female warriors.

In modern settings where women are fighting in hard contact fight sports it’s not a thing for the reasons already stated.

IMG there’s no size difference between male and female humans so in many cultures women warriors are commonplace.  

I think the only obviously female ‘armour’ IMG is the gold ceremonial armour d’amour of priestesses of Uleria. And everyone who grew up with Star Wars knows exactly what that looks like. 😜

 

 

 

I agree with 90% of your reply here.

Insofar as women and the SIZ stat, the rules don't have a difference so there is no difference. Boom. Done.

Insofar as women warriors go most female professional warriors [in Heortling terms, thanes rather than fyrdwomen] are probably not of the the voluptuous 'wide child bearing hips' variety, but are built leaner with a higher muscle mass due to exercise... in modern terms, more Ronda Rousey and less Kate Upton. And this has zero effect on their CHA stat. Beauty might be in the eye of the beholder, but inspirational leadership is another thing entirely.

I don't see Ulerians wearing armor save in the most extreme occasions. Ulerians might be 'sacred prostitutes' but their role is not to fulfill fetishes. They're focused on the various acts of Love [sexual, fertility, communal, even intellectual], so I see them as protected in nearly the same manner Orlanthi children are protected. Things would have to 'tango uniform' pretty badly before any Orlanthi thane would suffer someone threatening an Ulerian.

As for Chaosium's portrayal of women, I wholeheartedly approve of their portrayal in the text. Yes, I wish they'd get rid of the boob plate, but that's really of little consequence. Compared to other games [you used Pathfinder, but they're not the worst offender by far], Chaosium's products are positively egalitarian in their artwork.