Best Forum for Glorantha/RQ2/RQ3?

[Baron]

So I'm enjoying reading this site, and I wondered if there's a site just as active that's about RQ2/RQ3 (Chaosium) gaming in Glorantha? Any recommendations? Thanks!

[Jarulf]

I'm pretty much out of the Glorantha loop nowadays but the community seems to concentrate mostly on mailing lists, less on forums. There is a mailing list for all editions of RQ, but I don't know how active it is.

Runequest Info Page

There is also the Yahoo Glorantha Group WorldofGlorantha : The World of Glorantha

Not what you were asking for, sorry but hopefully of some use to someone.

[Trifletraxor]

So I'm enjoying reading this site, and I wondered if there's a site just as active that's about RQ2/RQ3 (Chaosium) gaming in Glorantha? Any recommendations? Thanks!

There's no active Glorantha forums, only mailing lists. I set up the Gloranthan Link list (now administrated by Chris Holden) and a Glorantha forum a 2-3 years ago, but the gloranthaphiles obviously preferred mailing lists and my Glorantha interest slowly faded as my dislike for the new products increased. Check out the link list for a list of the message groups.

SGL.

[Thalaba]

The mailing list is pretty active and has a pretty wide distribution. The topics of discussion vary and are not limited to Glorantha - in fact, I've not seen much Gloranthan discussion in a while. Lev, the fellow who administers the list, also publishes a fanzine you might find interesting. You can get to both here: RPG Review or follow Jarulf's link

There's an RQ3 Yahoo group - it's more focused on the rules rq3 : RuneQuest 3rd Edition.

There's also an alternate earth RQ group (so definitely not Glorantha, but still interesting) and associated web page. alternateearthrq : Alternate Earth

Regards,

Thalaba

[Baron]

Well, can anyone point me to a good article or thread that compares RQ2/RQ3 and suggests which pieces of each are "superior/not broken/more suitable to a Gloranthan campaign/well-liked?" For instance, I've heard that RQ3's sorcery needs work, and some people didn't like how the other types of magic were changed. Also I recall hearing some dislike of changes to cults. I'd like to consider putting together some kind of combination for a campaign. In the interim, I'll sign up for whatever groups I can find. Thanks!

[Thalaba]

This thread will get you started on understanding sorcery: http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/1336-rq3-basic-magic-sorcery.html

[Trifletraxor]

Well, can anyone point me to a good article or thread that compares RQ2/RQ3 and suggests which pieces of each are "superior/not broken/more suitable to a Gloranthan campaign/well-liked?" For instance, I've heard that RQ3's sorcery needs work, and some people didn't like how the other types of magic were changed. Also I recall hearing some dislike of changes to cults. I'd like to consider putting together some kind of combination for a campaign. In the interim, I'll sign up for whatever groups I can find. Thanks!

Sorcery works very well for NPCs, just not as well for players. I'd say RQ3 is overall somewhat better than RQ2, at least combatwise (no defence f.ex.). Biggest drawback to RQ3 is that its not integrated with the setting the same way as RQ2 and RQ4 was.

SGl.

[Atgxtg]

I'd also say overall RQ3 is better. But RQ2 did, and still does have some merits.

Most of the points against RQ3 raised by Baron are true.

Sorcery.

The problem is with FreeINT. If a character (say a brgiht PC) with a high INT can get going, he can start casting some very high compliexity spells that could last a long time. I'd suggest hunting down a copy of Sandy Peterson's Sorcery rules, it mitigates some of this by making it skill dependent.

The change in Magic

The compalitns tend to be two-fold.

1) All spells require a cast roll. In RQ2 spells that were opposed used to use the POW vs. POW roll inplace of the cast roll.

2) ENC penalties now apply to all cast rolls. This made Battle/Spririt magic harder to cast, but also affected Divine MAgic.

Personally, I think it isn't such a big deal, but if you wanted to you could run it more in the RQ2 style.

Changes in Cults

Probably the biggest complaint here would be that cults in RQ3 were written up using the "short form" rather than the muti-page write-ups everyone had been used too since Cults of Prax. Additionally lay membership was dropped.

Without a doubt, I'd say use the long form.

There are a few other differences between the systems.

RQ3 changed the Hit Point formula, the skill category formula, the hit location table. INT and SIZ, tweaked Strike Ranks, and allowed for everyone to have skill over 100%. Plus some other things that I have forgotten.

As far as the best fit for Glorantha, well, brace yourself. According to both Greg Stafford and Steve Perrin, RQ was never really a good fit for Glorantha. The RQ system is a bit to realistic, gritty and down to earth to match well with the mythic setting of Glorantha. Probably the best fit for Glorantha is HeroQuest, but HQ is very different from RQ and not everyone takes to it.

Plus Greg did some revision of some of the cults in HQ and it isn't exactly the same place it was in the old RQ days. Yelmalio got a facelift and lost a few letters, and all the female Orlanthi warriors suddenly found themselves worshiping Vinga.

[Baron]

Thanks all, for your input. Atgxtg, I'm sure Greg likes HQ and HW. I don't. I'm not a fan of Robin Laws' work. I like to roleplay using games similar to those I began the hobby using. RQ2 is a great game, and I associate it with Glorantha as I lived it. RQ3 was "distanced" from Glorantha, to some extent at least. I'm basically asking for opinions on any pieces of RQ3 that work better than RQ2 but don't spoil the "Glorantha" of the game. For instance, I'm pretty iffy on using Sorcery at all. But is there anything else about RQ3 that I should be considering? I don't know. Again, thanks to everyone for their opinions!

[Atgxtg]

I'm not a big fan of HQ myself, just thought I should mention it.

RQ3 has quite a few things worth taking. The new Hit Point formula, and the new skill category formulas and missile hit location chart for one. Dropping Defense in favor of Dodge is a mixed blessing.

RQ3 also limited the amount of sprint magic (battle magic) a character can know to his INT, rather than just have INT as ready spells.

Sorcery only comes into play if it is the appropriate magic for the culture being played. If you are running a campaign set in Dragon Pass or Prax then it wouldn't come into play very much if at all.

RQ3 also has a larger bestiary, and the changing of SIZ and INT to 2D6+6 gave more room for stating out small animals and monsters. The SIZ table is nice too.

If I were going to run a Glorantha campaign, I'd probably use RQ3 rules with RQ2 Cult writueps, and possibly RQ2 Strike Ranks. I'd also use different players as my current group couldn't hack it.

RQ3 does have a couple of Glorantha supplements that cover new ground. The Cults Box set, while using the short form, does detail a lot of cults, and pantheons. The Glorantha box set gives info on the culture and lands outside of Dragon Pass. Elder Secrets is gives a decent look at the non-Human species.

Hope that info helps.

[frogspawner]

1) All spells require a cast roll. In RQ2 spells that were opposed used to use the POW vs. POW roll inplace of the cast roll.

Technically, didn't you have to roll for every spell in RQ2, too? Because 96+ would fail. Meh, who cares...

Certainly RQ2 Defence was a bit broken. (In two ways: 1. Fiddly modifications of opponent's attacks rolls; 2. Runaway increase - the more you got, the more it made a difference, so the more you got...)

But rather than use RQ3 Dodge, which is an alternative to parrying, I allow a Defence roll in addition. (OK, it's yet another roll, slowing combat, but helps characters survive - answering a frequent criticism of RQ). And instead of increasing via ticks, I say Defence only goes up via points awarded by the GM - for proper heroic role-playing. (Lack of a reward-mechanism for which being my main criticism of RQ2).

Maybe with those house rules, RQ would be 'mythic' enough to have pleased Greg... Ah, what might have been. <sigh>

[deleriad]

Most of the mechanical changes from RQ2 to RQ3 were neither more nor less Gloranthan. You could argue that RQ3 tended to favour some notion of simulation over MGF as most changes tended to increase the amount of book-keeping and feature very fiddly modifiers.

There was an attempt to turn battle magic into spirit magic in order to satisfy Greg's tripartite model of magic (spirits, deities and sorcery) but then everyone treated spirit magic as battle magic which defeated the object and you ended up with something that was neither fish nor fowl. In Gloranthan terms, if spirit magic was relegated to just animists and a small amount of common magic became available with broadly similar effects to basic spirit magic then you would have something that was more in lines with Glorantha.

Divine Magic was an attempt to think through in more detail about the types of magic that would be available to priests. It's more coherent than RQ2 but perhaps rather drier.

Sorcery was based on notions of Gloranthan sorcery but the system was not put together with much thought about it making it usable in play. It has its fans but then so does colonic irrigation.

All in all I would use RQ3 magic for Glorantha rather than RQ2 as it's a little more thought through at the expense of being slower to play, harder to to use and more fiddly.

The major change to cults was an attempt to genericise them. Therefore acolytes were introduced (senior initiates) and rune lords and priests became different branches of membership so rune lord-priests no longer existed. Allied spirits were also made less common. Most cults were presented in short form write-ups but that was purely pragmatic as the idea was to expand the number of playable cults quickly and let long form write-ups catch up later. The changes are all logical, sensible and, perhaps, less fun to play.

As I understand it, almost nothing in RQ2 and very little in RQ3 matches up with Greg Stafford's concept of Glorantha. Mostly RQ2 matched up with the problems he saw in D&D at the time. The one exception to this as I see it, is that that everyone has a little magic in Glorantha and that was recreated in RQ2/3. However Stafford later became dissatisfied with the amount and power of commonly available magic, especially healing magic. So really it's pretty much a case of personal preference. Neither really recreates Glorantha as seen by Greg Stafford significantly better than the other. I would say that RQ2 at the top end risks devolving into munchkin Glorantha while RQ3 becomes accountancy Glorantha.

Personally I feel that what I know of MRQ2 hits a pretty sweet spot between the fun factor of original RQ2 while having more fidelity to the source material. That's not something I suspect you want to hear though. :innocent: It does however strike me that both the new HQ and new RQ have looked back to RQ2 to inspiration far more than they have RQ3. Make of that what you will.

[RosenMcStern]

The best combination to play is, IMO:

Rules: do not fiddle with RQ2/RQ3 mish-mashes and just use straight BRP. It is RQ3 with some improvements, and it contains RQ2 Defense as an option.

Spirit Magic: you will not find a satisfactory ruleset anywhere in any published setting, except MRQ Cults of Glorantha 2, but this has some well-known editorial issues. Basically, do-it-yourself or us Sandy's shamanism if you can get hold of a copy. Or, better, wait for MRQ2 and use its spirit magic.

Theist magic: use the cult writeups from RQ3 River of Cradles and Elder Secrets, and you are ok. Those are long cult writeups, not abstracts.

Malkioni Magic: use Sandy's Sorcery, and you will avoid all the issues that plague RQ3 sorcery. Besides, it is well suited for Glorantha. MRQ sorcery is good, too, but it has bugs.

[Trifletraxor]

As far as the best fit for Glorantha, well, brace yourself. According to both Greg Stafford and Steve Perrin, RQ was never really a good fit for Glorantha.

Well, Greg's fully gregged Glorantha has never been a good RPG setting either. He and he's fanboys look at Glorantha primarily as a literary work and not a RPG setting. RQ was a great fit for classic Glorantha.

For instance, I'm pretty iffy on using Sorcery at all.

Don't be. Just keep it out of your players hand. It's great to have them meet some powerful foreign magician wielding strange and evil magic. It's hell to have a player with sorcery because of all the calculations that will pop up, but it adds nice flavour to the background.

RQ3 has some great supplements with cool campaigns. If you've allready run through the RQ2 ones, move on to RQ3. Drop ENC, use POW vs. POW for magic, and do some other minor adjustments, but by all means, try it out! :thumb:

SGL.

[Mister Apocalypse]

Certainly RQ2 Defence was a bit broken. (In two ways: 1. Fiddly modifications of opponent's attacks rolls; 2. Runaway increase - the more you got, the more it made a difference, so the more you got...)

It's the runaway increase that's the problem.

[Mister Apocalypse]

Rules: do not fiddle with RQ2/RQ3 mish-mashes and just use straight BRP. It is RQ3 with some improvements, and it contains RQ2 Defense as an option.

Not really. Jason based BRP on WoW and Elric! rather than RQ3. IMO a bad move as neither is very functional. BRP ended up saddled with the flaws of thiose systems as well. For example the lousy Elric! parry table.

Also BRP diverts from RQ in other ways, including opposed rolls.

It's probably easier to mish-mash RQ2/3 than it is to mish-mash the options in BRP to get it to work for Glorantha.

Most of BRP's perks, wouldn't apply to Glorantha anyway.

[Mechashef]

A major (but apparently little noticed) difference between RQ2 and RQ3 is that RQ3 is a more true D100 system.

Iirc, in RQ2 skills only go up in increments of 5%, so you could play almost as well by ditching the D100, dividing skills by 5 and rolling D20.

[SDLeary]

A major (but apparently little noticed) difference between RQ2 and RQ3 is that RQ3 is a more true D100 system.

Iirc, in RQ2 skills only go up in increments of 5%, so you could play almost as well by ditching the D100, dividing skills by 5 and rolling D20.

You mean, Pendragon

A good choice, depending on players style, is Dave Dunham's PenDragon Pass. A bit less gritty and more epic in feel than RQ/BRP, and a bit more abstract in the area of combat, but fun if you are going for something closer to an epic style, but don't want to go as far as HQ2.

In addition to this, IIRC, there was a Gloranthan Pendragon released at one of the EuroCons that is supposed to adapt the Pendragon magic system to Glorantha and its Runic magic.

SDLeary

[Mechashef]

You mean, Pendragon

I knew nothing about Pendragon (other than the game existed) until then. I just looked up the wikipedia entry for it, and yes, like Pendragon!

In my (limited) experience, most people I know who have played RQ2 and RQ3 forget that RQ2 mainly used 5% increments.

After playing RQ3, the 5% increments seem so artificial and D&D like.

[soltakss]

The best combination to play is, IMO:

BRP seems more like Stormbringer/Elric combined with CoC rather than RQ3 improved.

I'd use RQ3 as a base and add bits and bobs from BRP and RQM, in fact that's what I do use at the moment.

RQ3 Spirit Magic worked fine for me. The rules on Shamans sucked but how many people actually play shamans?

RQ3 had a number of long cult writeups and more short cult writeups that were as good as or better than the ones from RQ2. Certainly, the later cult writeups were very good, but it took a while to get there.

I'm not that keen on Sandy's Sorcery, it seems very complex to me and has a lot of book-keeping.

[soltakss]

Well, can anyone point me to a good article or thread that compares RQ2/RQ3 and suggests which pieces of each are "superior/not broken/more suitable to a Gloranthan campaign/well-liked?"

I haven't seen any comparisons, but everyone has theirt own opinions.

RQ2 was full of character and Glorantha came alive through the excellent scenarios.

When RQ3 came out, the rules just didn't have the same character as it used an Alternate Earth model rather than a Gloranthan one. There was a Glorantha chapter but all that contained was a long writeup of Ernalda (good), a restating of Dragonewts (OK) and a scenario (so-so).

Many of the skills from RQ2 had been dropped and many had been combined into new uber-skills.

Magic-wise, many of the spells were changed slightly, some were changed a lot and some were dropped. Cult Comon Magic was cut down and some formerly common spells became Cult Special. When Gods of Glorantha came out it had some oddities that changed the character of some cults.

Overall, RQ3 is a far better designed ruleset than RQ2. Character Generation is better, but suffers from the overskilled pensioner syndrome. Skills progress in 1D6s rather than in 5s, which is a vast improvement. Characteristics are handled better. Experience is done differently but is no better than in RQ2, just different. RQ3 dropped Crushes and Slashes, which made combat less interesting. RQ3 had rules on town sizes and econics, which are good, and better rules for travel, disease, poison, and adventuring. The Ship rules are very good and are still used with very few changes in BRP and RQM.

For instance, I've heard that RQ3's sorcery needs work, and some people didn't like how the other types of magic were changed. Also I recall hearing some dislike of changes to cults. I'd like to consider putting together some kind of combination for a campaign. In the interim, I'll sign up for whatever groups I can find. Thanks!

RQ3 Sorcery is OK, to a certain extent. However, a starting sorcerer with one spell could cast a bigger spell than an experienced sorcerer with many spells, which is clearly wrong. There are some rules fixes that sort all this out, Sandy's Sorcery is one way of doing it.

Spirit Magic is handled well, especially with local Spirit Lords granting single spells to worshippers. I'm not that keen on the casting chance but I could live with it, althogh having a Spirit Magic casting skill is a better way to go. I don't have a problem with Divine Cults granting Spirit Magic as I don't see Spirit Magic as being provided by Spirits but as being a secondary or lesser magic.

Divine Magic is handled very well. The Cult Templates are a bit limited and could have done with a few more examples.

The RQ3 rulebook had very sketchy magic examples, mostly for generic sorcerers olr generic cults. It took a number of supplements to get the cults back to the level that they were in RQ2. Troll Gods provided the cults of Trollpack and a few more, River of Cradles provided some of the cults from Cults of Prax, Lords of Terror and Dorastor provided most of the cults from Cults of Terror, Gods of Glorantha provided sketchy cults and Elder Secrets had a few more cults. Shadows on the Borderlands has a kick-ass version of Thanatar but there was no Vivamort cult for RQ3 and the RQ2 one didn't really work. Various fanzines filled a lot of the gaps with a lot of new cults written up in long form. So, although RQ2 had some good supplements, cult-wise, RQ3 had better ones, but they took longer to come out.

So, overall, RQ3 is better than RQ2. RQ2 had a better flavour but RQ3 soon caught up with some excellent supplements.

All IMO of course, YOMV.

[Mechashef]

I haven't seen any comparisons, but everyone has theirt own opinions.

I think soltakss has given a good comparison.

One thing that has been left out is melee movement.

RQ2 is less precise on combat movement. It is something that happens, but the GM has to fudge a bit.

RQ2 has combat movement based on the melee round with humans moving 8 units per round. “Unit” can vary, but for combat is generally 3m to give a movement of 24m per round in combat. This is fine until you get a situation where it is important to know exactly where moving characters are.

RQ3 has combat movement based on Strike Ranks (SR), with humans moving 3m per strike rank.

In my opinion, this is better because it means that you can more easily calculate the delay it will cause to an attack if the attacker must move.

It also means that in RQ3, all humans don't move the same distance in a round, so a faster RQ3 character can move more metres than a slower one. An average RQ3 human will move the same distance in a round as a RQ2 human, but a RQ3 human with a DEX below 10 will move more, and one with a DEX above 15 will move less.

On one hand the RQ2 movement system can give more flavour for other species (a movement of 9 or 10 units) per round is faster than a human, but not blindingly fast where as in RQ3, having a movement of 4m per SR is fine, but 5m or above starts to make the creature exceptionally fast.

On the other hand the movement ratings assigned to some RQ2 creatures seem a little odd (though I understand the logic in that combat speed involves more than just moving).

I think BRP (which has a system similar to RQ2) suffers from using the poorer system and also from having creatures taken from various members of the BRP family. I suspect that the same creature doesn't always have the same stats in all members of the family which can give some odd movement values when creatures are combined into the generic BRP book.