Gods and Goddesses' soul portions

[Meleros]

Hi everybody.

As you probably already know (as y'all are way better versed in Gloranthan lore than me), Dara Happans conceive the soul as being composed by six parts, and the Lunars added a seventh one, the transcendent portion. So, we know the seven portions of Sedenya, and Yelm's original six.

So, first question, did the Lunars add a seventh portion to Yelm's soul (and, in that case, who is he/she?), or is that something that only Illuminated beings (which Yelm, ironically, is not) receive?

Moreover, I suppose that Dendara (and, somewhat indirectly, Ernalda), should have a similar division of the soul, right? From a Lunar viewpoint, I suppose that Hon Eel "discovered" that Ernalda's seventh portion is She Who Waits, but what about the other six?

Edited July 14, 2021 by Meleros

[Sir_Godspeed]

This is a great question! I am not sure of the answer, truthfully, but the first that came to mind for Yelm's Seventh Soul is (very conspiratorially, mind you) ... Nysalor (or is invented deity, Daysenerus, although he kinda overlaps with Yelmalio/Antirius in a weird way).

Ernalda has an absolute butt-load of subdeities or nicknames associated with her, to the point where I'm not really sure if it's possible to define specifically which would constitute her Sixths in a Pelorian/Lunar context. 

If we define Ernalda as not just the conventional "queen of the earth/Orlanth's wife" character, but rather view her as the totality of Earth powers, the Creatrix and capital-g-Goddess, then we could argue that deities like Asrelia, Ty Kora Tek, Maran Gor, Esrola, Babeester Gor, Voria, etc. etc. could be parts of her soul (they all interlink in deeply complex ways). But if we view her in a more limited, "personal" manner, then it would perhaps be easier to look at more domestic, agricultural or prosocial deities. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Meleros said:

or is that something that only Illuminated beings (which Yelm, ironically, is not) receive?

Yelm is, in fact, Illuminated.  This is noted in GRoY p.32: "Most importantly, Yelm was Illuminated. He experienced the impossible. Yelm experienced being one of the Many while he was nameless and faceless. He had no contact with the One. He at last knew the Other."

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

33 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yelm's Seventh Soul is (very conspiratorially, mind you) ... Nysalor

yeah, Yelm's seventh soul is definitely Nysalor, the lord of light. Nysalor's fight with Arkat was Hill-of-Gold all over again imho.

I have a lot of feelings about Sedenya's seventh soul but a fun grenade to throw into the room is to suggest it's her Chaos soul. Right, like she has one phase and soul for each element, and a seventh. Which is...?

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is a great question! I am not sure of the answer, truthfully, but the first that came to mind for Yelm's Seventh Soul is (very conspiratorially, mind you) ... Nysalor

That makes so much sense, in many ways.

 

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Meleros said:

Hi everybody.

As you probably already know (as y'all are way better versed in Gloranthan lore than me), Dara Happans conceive the soul as being composed by six parts, and the Lunars added a seventh one, the transcendent portion. So, we know the seven portions of Sedenya, and Yelm's original six.

I think there are two separate things going on here - parts of a human soul and parts of a gods soul. Those born into Pelorian Culture have six soul parts, and those who follow the lunar path to illumination can have their seventh soul awakened. The six souls from GRoY are:

1. Shape soul (physical body), from Dendara

2. Warmth Soul (animation, 'life'), from Lodril

3. Beast Soul (generation, sex), from Oria

4. Bird Soul (intelligence, mind), from Dayzatar

5. Shadow Soul (fear, shortcomings), from the Other Goddess

6. Fire Soul (spirit), from Yelm

We know the Orlanthi have five souls (Heortling Mythology, page 18)

Shadow, Darkness

 Blood, Water

 Heat, fire 

 Body, Flesh & bones & organs, earth

 Breath, Air

The soul parts of the gods are a different thing to know, and may not be relevant except to philosophers.

The Red Goddess is a bit different as she started a mortal with six souls, her goddess quest (Her Quest) opened he seventh soul. Yelm however appears to have a single soul, when he breaks up after the Doom Conjunction and Bijiif, his immortal essence goes to the Pit. I would suggest that this is his core fire rune, and the the souls of the Gods are the runes they are made of. Yelm and other Gods' illumination is something different from that in humans. It isn't a separate thing, as until the Red goddess awaked it, it didn't exist in that form. The Red Goddess seems to have made it a soul part, as previously Nysalorean illuminates appeared to have no more soul parts. The Red Goddess, made illumination part of the soul, instead of an external concept.

17 hours ago, Meleros said:

Moreover, I suppose that Dendara (and, somewhat indirectly, Ernalda), should have a similar division of the soul, right? From a Lunar viewpoint, I suppose that Hon Eel "discovered" that Ernalda's seventh portion is She Who Waits, but what about the other six?

A Pelorian Dendarian would have six souls, while an Orlanthi Ernaldan would have five. A Lunar Dendaran priestess, could in theory have seven souls. But what of an Orlanthi Seven mothers illuminate, do they have only six, but the newly opened one is still the Seventh?

[soltakss]

20 hours ago, David Scott said:

A Pelorian Dendarian would have six souls, while an Orlanthi Ernaldan would have five. A Lunar Dendaran priestess, could in theory have seven souls. But what of an Orlanthi Seven mothers illuminate, do they have only six, but the newly opened one is still the Seventh?

They would have Seven, but one would be empty!

[davecake]

Some mystics conceptualise the Seventh Soul as being fully aware of your connection with the one, Universal Soul. There is only one Seventh Soul, everything is connected to it, most of us not in a way that we are conscious of. Awakening the Seventh Soul is experiencing that you are part of the one universal consciousness. 

We Are All Us. 

[davecake]

On 7/15/2021 at 5:41 AM, Meleros said:

So, first question, did the Lunars add a seventh portion to Yelm's soul (and, in that case, who is he/she?), or is that something that only Illuminated beings (which Yelm, ironically, is not) receive?

Six parts, five, or the different Doraddi set, etc - it’s all different cultural conceptions. Different ways of explaining this complex thing that is mortal existence (and the different sets of characteristics in various RPGs are the same sort of thing, for a different purpose). They aren’t even necessarily talking about the same thing. Ie the Dara Happans treat your physical body as one part of your ‘soul’ but of course everyone still has a physical body. Having different conceptions and terminology doesn’t mean anything changes.

when the Lunars talk about the Seventh Soul, they mean the transcendant, pure consciousness, part of ourselves. It’s not our mind, it’s not our body, it’s not the bit that works magic (or can be normally changed by magic, except indirectly). It’s the process of Illumination. I don’t think they usually talk about gaining a Seventh Soul, they talk about awakening it, because it was always there. It’s a different way of thinking about it. 
Yelm, of course, is considered Illuminated, whatever that means for Gods (when we say a god is Illuminated, that might only be a metaphorical thing, that it has become possible to fully identify with Yelm, and with the All, at the same time. Gods may not have a single consciousness, and mystic truths are hard to communicate). But saying Yelm is Illuminated is the same as saying his Seventh Soul is awake, just different words. Other cultures use different terms for the same thing. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

Yeah, I'm approaching the concept of numbered souls as a cultural categorization as well, rather than a substantive thing. It's like thinking about how many colors there are in the rainbow: it's completely arbitrary, but you just sorta have to make a decision, and hopefully one that resonates with preexisting values and an overarching system. 

Now, I'm not saying this can't have an impact, with your afterlife or access to magic or cults, but I'd argue this is more about entering into a system and less about anything substantive actually changing. Sorta like filing for your personal company to change into a limited company. The actual assets of the company don't physically change, but the way the law treats them is transformed, if that makes sense.

Different ways of viewing the integration of personhood into the divine and cosmic cycle, basically.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[Eff]

The Seventh Soul is both buddha-nature and tiqqun. Both a recognition of what is truly eternal and unchanging about the self (the answer may surprise you!) and an abandonment of the wall separating the self from the everything. As such, the seventh soul is a way of contextualizing Illumination as both a fulfillment or completion, a superlative exceeding of one's material limits, and a recognition of how far there is yet to go once one becomes truly Immortal. So it's best to think of the soul as nigh-infinitely divisible. After all, each of Yelm's Six Parts would have its own divisible soul, and so on and so forth.