Aeolian Notes

[radmonger]

I don't think Temertain was canonically Aoelian, but he must have been at least Aeolian-adjacent, coming from the Lhankhor Mhy cult in the Holy country. He honestly thought it was possible that he could rule as a philosopher-king. By birthright, despite having no notable martial skills.

If Sartarites were Aeolians, that plan could have worked. And you can in fact qualify for Orlanth Rex without becoming a Wind Lord of Orlanth Adventerous. But in Sartar, that would be the equivalent of trying to become President of the USA without having a college degree, or roman emperor without military experience.

Edited July 17 by radmonger

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, PaulJW said:

from whence, then, can an Aeolian talar derive his authority as a military commander?  Just by being a talar? 

The Aeolian castes are endogamous and only marry among their caste.

The Aeolian talars derive authority from the Invisible God and their ancestry, which would include Orlanth who is one of the emanations of the Invisible God. (Consider their worship of Orlanth to be as an ancestor.)

2 hours ago, PaulJW said:

Would an Orlanthi Wind Lord really accept and respect the military command of an Orlanth initiate?  I struggle to see it.

The ranks/positions within the Orlanth cult will be restricted (i.e. different) under the Aeolian culture. Commoners would only worship Orlanth Thunderous. There is probably not an Orlanth Adventurous tradition (or it is limited to the talars).

The Aeolians are a small culture, though - only ~75k total and the talar families make up maybe 5k (as I recall from Jeff's earlier posts).

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I don't think Temertain was canonically Aoelian, but he must have been at least Aeolian-adjacent, coming from the Lhankhor Mhy cult in the Holy country. He honestly thought it was possible that he could rule as a philosopher-king. By birthright, despite having no notable martial skills.

Temertain is an heir of Sartar. He was not Aeolian.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, PaulJW said:

(and in this sense I'd see the Aeolian culture as fairly similar to their northern neighbours) where the personal prowess of the warrior has an important role to play in establishing their credibility as a military leader, a non-fighting military commander in the style of a Xerxes being carried around on a chair seems problematic.

Bear in mind that Heortland has just come out of 3 centuries of rule by Belintar. Aside from Orlanthi rebels in Volsaxiland and occasional Praxian raiders, there have been no wars in Heortland for 300 years. There is no large-scale military culture. The Lunar conquest in 1620 quickly defeated what resistance there was (of Heortling and Aeolian as led by the westerner Rikard). 

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Bear in mind that Heortland has just come out of 3 centuries of rule by Belintar. Aside from Orlanthi rebels in Volsaxiland and occasional Praxian raiders, there have been no wars in Heortland for 300 years. There is no large-scale military culture. The Lunar conquest in 1620 quickly defeated what resistance there was (of Heortling and Aeolian as led by the westerner Rikard). 

There has been at least one governor-king of Heortland who incited massive rebellion, and the Hendriki and "foreigner" Heortlanders would have been called to service by Belintar against the Ditali. They also managed to keep the threat of the Footprint Chaos down.

RuneQuest2 Companion mentions their heavy cavalry (as "knights").

[PaulJW]

55 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Aeolian talars derive authority from the Invisible God and their ancestry, which would include Orlanth who is one of the emanations of the Invisible God. (Consider their worship of Orlanth to be as an ancestor.)

Just to be clear, I am not saying the talars have to be Wind Lords to command authority in general.  In terms of government, their caste should be enough.  However, to be a credible military commander, I think, would require Wind Lord status in a culture so heavily influenced by Orlanthi traditions in my opinion.  But not all talars would be military commanders, in which case they would not need to be Wind Lords either.

 

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There has been at least one governor-king of Heortland who incited massive rebellion, and the Hendriki and "foreigner" Heortlanders would have been called to service by Belintar against the Ditali. They also managed to keep the threat of the Footprint Chaos down.

They would also have had to contend with such things as incessant Praxian raids on their eastern marcher borders, even if this would mostly consist of nothing more than hit and run skirmishes.

[davecake]

Of the three castes of the Aeolians:

Commoners are literally everyone who isn't noble or zzaburi, and I presume they worship the entire normal range of Orlanthi gods. Probably a fairly large percentage of them are Orlanthi farmer-warriors just like their Heortland neighbours, though there are plenty of fisherman as well, who probably mostly worship Choralinthor.

I suspect they probably have a way for others to be adopted into the caste? But are primarily endogamous, certainly. 

The zzaburi, also described as sorcerer-priests - two big questions about them, which likely relate.

1) do they exclusively use sorcery, or do they combine sorcery and rune magic? Are they exclusively 'priests' of the Invisible God, or do they worship his emanations as well? If they do use Rune magic and lead worship, which deities? 

2) the rulebook says they are trained in sorcery if they have INT 14. But what happens to the majority of the Zzaburi (presuming they have a normal human spread of INT) that aren't?

The main question about the Talars is what gods do they worship? They don't use sorcery. The rulebook says they use Rune Magic and Spirit Magic - do they worship Orlanth? Does this include the Rex cult? What alternatives would there be? In Western tradition Talars may also be merchants and diplomats, which would potentially include Issaries, but the Aeolians are clearly not very bound by Western tradition. 

 

[radmonger]

 

21 minutes ago, davecake said:

the rulebook says they are trained in sorcery if they have INT 14.

IMHO, the only way a heridatary caste system makes mythic sense is due to reflecting the flavor of Bless Pregnancy , or perhaps its sorcerous equivalent, used by their parents.

Note that for Brithini, the caste roles are set by birth order, not parentage. Which presumably comes from 'first child, cast this spell, second, that one'. Hence the word 'caste' used to describe the different spell results.

[jajagappa]

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

1) do they exclusively use sorcery, or do they combine sorcery and rune magic? Are they exclusively 'priests' of the Invisible God, or do they worship his emanations as well? If they do use Rune magic and lead worship, which deities?

Exclusively sorcery as with any Malkioni based culture.

38 minutes ago, davecake said:

2) the rulebook says they are trained in sorcery if they have INT 14. But what happens to the majority of the Zzaburi (presuming they have a normal human spread of INT) that aren't?

Serve as functionaries at the temples of the Invisible God or as scribes.

39 minutes ago, davecake said:

The main question about the Talars is what gods do they worship? They don't use sorcery. The rulebook says they use Rune Magic and Spirit Magic - do they worship Orlanth? Does this include the Rex cult? What alternatives would there be? In Western tradition Talars may also be merchants and diplomats, which would potentially include Issaries, but the Aeolians are clearly not very bound by Western tradition. 

Follow a tradition of ancestor worship but where Aeol, Orlanth, and Ernalda are ancestors. Issaries and Chalana Arroy might also be worshiped as ancestors as the culture is influenced by the Lightbringers.

*Note: this is based on my draft for the Heortland book. However, work on the Invisible God Cults book might change any of the above.

24 minutes ago, radmonger said:

MHO, the only way a heridatary caste system makes mythic sense is due to reflecting the flavor of Bless Pregnancy , or perhaps its sorcerous equivalent, used by their parents.

As Jeff has previously noted in posts on the Aeolians: 

I tend to think of the Aeolians as being roughly analogous to the Druze or Yazidi. They are an ethnoreligious group that are always a minority outside of their strongholds. As an aside, I do not believe that the Aeolians try to convert anyone. I am not sure they even accept converts!

As with other Malkioni cultures, this is very much a mythic inheritance and does help to preserve their ways. And, yes, they are likely to have spells that help to continue to maintain their culture.

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Note that for Brithini, the caste roles are set by birth order, not parentage. Which presumably comes from 'first child, cast this spell, second, that one'. Hence the word 'caste' used to describe the different spell results.

Do we know whether this concept is the current canon?

Older writings have ancestors of the various castes, and their descendants inheriting that caste. Only Hrestol's introduction of the Men-of-All broke that stuck-in-your-birth-caste paradigm by allowing people from all castes to become men-of-all. The Seshnelan King List gives examples of soldier caste men-of-all whose descendants became kings, and most ruling talars became men-of-all, too - to the extent that the Rokari reform grouped the Man-of-All status with that of the Talar.

The Rokari "recruit boys from any parental caste who are promising as zzaburi" dogma is a rather radical deviation from either the birth order or the parental caste model.

53 minutes ago, davecake said:

Of the three castes of the Aeolians:

Commoners are literally everyone who isn't noble or zzaburi, and I presume they worship the entire normal range of Orlanthi gods. Probably a fairly large percentage of them are Orlanthi farmer-warriors just like their Heortland neighbours, though there are plenty of fisherman as well, who probably mostly worship Choralinthor.

The fisherfolk will worship the same gods as the coastal fisherfolk, including Choralinthor and Diros/Dormal, and possibly Triolina or Tholaina for catch fertility. Possibly Molakka/Oyster Girl too. We know about temples to Golod on the Fish Roads, so probably the ugly god too.

As with the Talars, the question is how that worship plays out. Do they initiate to specific deities like regular Orlanthi, or do they join a hodgepodge of spirit cults in their Esvulari tradition that grant a range of spells equivalent to that of their Orlanthi neighbors?

For spirit magic, ancestor worship seems to be a good alternative to temple-taught spells. The only problem with that is that this requires Malkioni shamans of Daka Fal, or sorcerers emulating shamanic services with specialized spells. In light of RQ3 era expectations the presence of shamans in Malkioni mainstream feels weird as hell.

I would expect an unusually high proportion of craftfolk in the Aeolian worker caste, at least compared to their Orlanthi neighbors. The huge Aeolian community outside of Nochet would predominantly have crafters and laborers.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I suspect they probably have a way for others to be adopted into the caste? But are primarily endogamous, certainly. 

We know about exclusive triaties among the Hendriki 300 years ago, with rare exceptions for political or ritual marriages, so we might assume a similar attitude for worker caste Aeolians.
 

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

1) do they exclusively use sorcery, or do they combine sorcery and rune magic? Are they exclusively 'priests' of the Invisible God, or do they worship his emanations as well? If they do use Rune magic and lead worship, which deities?

In Greg's Dawn Age Brithos story (Hrestol's Saga part 2) from the late sixties, the Zzabur caste on Brithos included priests of rather abstract gods (and priestesses of ancestral Malkioni) who did not use powerfiul sorcery themselves but who invoked divine powers. They still may have done so using sorcerous methods to call the divinities into their presence and trade sorcerous worship magic for miracles.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

2) the rulebook says they are trained in sorcery if they have INT 14. But what happens to the majority of the Zzaburi (presuming they have a normal human spread of INT) that aren't?

If the Praxian tribes can have different stat modifiers, a caste system that has remained stable for centuries might do the same.

Also, Brithini sorcerers know sorceries that duplicate high level  rune magic - Arolanit Brithini live in the expectation that their sorcerers will resurrect them in case of terminal injuries. The Kachisti sorcerers revived their Vadeli hostages who committed suicide just before the Nidan dwarfs erupted that mountain range in the middle of their realm. There may well be sorceries to further juvenile development in certain ways, or an equivalent of Bless Pregnancy. In case of doubt by invoking deities of birthing or Fertility to perform the actual magic for the sorcerers.

 

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The main question about the Talars is what gods do they worship? They don't use sorcery. The rulebook says they use Rune Magic and Spirit Magic - do they worship Orlanth? Does this include the Rex cult? What alternatives would there be? In Western tradition Talars may also be merchants and diplomats, which would potentially include Issaries, but the Aeolians are clearly not very bound by Western tradition.

Seshnegi talars have a strong element of ancestor worship, including deities (or their Malkioni look-alikes, like Kachast for Issaries and Tadenit for Lhankor Mhy). The Rokari talars with the dominant Fornoari families probably include some of the Old Gods of the Enerali in that ancestry.

Talars are overseers, judges, diplomats, military and possibly naval commanders, and in charge of external trade and internal tax assessment and collection. In the Logician perfection, the Talars provide (or oversee) the stable infrastructure for the Zzaburi to do their things by organizing the workers and soldiers to secure sufficient provisions, security and material for their arts.

Esvulari talars in office do the same job as Heortling nobility - all of the above, plus personally leading in battle by example, and by communicating with the wyter of the community. Those without office (just belonging to talar households) will do subservient jobs to their household heads who hold the office.

At a guess, this may include bureaucratic work of tally-keeping, resource management etc. done by the clan, tribal and city temples in Heortling clans, tribes and cities.

The Rex cult was introduced to the Hendriki in the late Second Age, across EWF territory, from the northern traditionalist tribes and liberated Orlanthi who fought the Dragonfriends and who had been introduced to this by Alakoring. Contact with the Slontans would have re-inforced Malkioni practices of city management, described as "Jrustelan" in the Belintar description in History of the Heortling Peoples. But reign of (lesser) city "kings" or rings somehow sprang up throughout the Heortling region, from Hendrikiland to Saird.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The main question about the Talars is what gods do they worship? ... What alternatives would there be?

I wonder how exceptional the Seven Mothers are as a cult of a gods collective. A similar "masks of the Invisible God" collective for the Aeolians based on the Orlanthi deities and manifestations of Malkion in that Aeolian depiction of Malkion in the Prosopaedia would make things a lot easier, giving some access to the relevant rune magics - in case of doubt as associate magic from the Lightbringer and Earth pantheon. Something like a formalized spirit society, only led by rune levels (and/or sorcerers) rather than shamans.

 

One question that hasn't been asked before is about female participation in the Caste duties. The Rokari only recruit boys into their cloistered sorcerer academies. Esvulari zzabur families will have as many daughters as sons, and while the daughters will be saddled with giving birth to future sorcerers, that doesn't mean that they don't practice the caste duties themselves. Aeolian Earth rites might require sorceresses to syphon off some of the worship energy towards the common use of the zzaburi, as Earth fertility mysteries don't necessarily tolerate male participation in leading a worship. Too bad we don't have the rules for that yet.

 

 

[Beoferret]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Aeolians are a small culture, though - only ~75k total and the talar families make up maybe 5k (as I recall from Jeff's earlier posts).

This would make the talars between 6-7% of the overall population. Fairly numerous for a nobility. Granted there were IRL examples of regions in medieval and early modern Europe where a high proportion of the population were nobles; e.g. Poland. But it meant that many of them were actually pretty poor (in lands and/or treasure). High status, but economically impoverished. It might be an interesting twist to propose something similar for the Aeolian talars.

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

This would make the talars between 6-7% of the overall population. Fairly numerous for a nobility. Granted there were IRL examples of regions in medieval and early modern Europe where a high proportion of the population were nobles; e.g. Poland. But it meant that many of them were actually pretty poor (in lands and/or treasure). High status, but economically impoverished. It might be an interesting twist to propose something similar for the Aeolian talars.

The Aeolians are only a subset of the Esvulari, but the dominant one. This means that there are administrative duties that may extend to traditional Orlanthi in their domain, giving judges, tax assessors etc. some job security beyond their own co-religionists. The same goes for the Zzabur caste - non-Aeolians may well be asked to contribute to the Invisible God rites as lay worshippers, in exchange for limited access to sorcerous services negotiated from the Talars who seem to control the equivalent of the city confederations in southern Heortland. At the very least, common protection would be a benefit to be gained from fueling the sorcerers a bit.

 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

[Zzabur caste sorcerers practice] Exclusively sorcery as with any Malkioni based culture.

[non-sorcerer Zzabur caste members might] Serve as functionaries at the temples of the Invisible God or as scribes.

That still leaves the question about those zzabur caste members who cannot learn sorcery. Surely they would be able to master other magics?

Zzabur-caste co-officiants might be obligatory in Aeolian-dominated territory, partaking in the worship energy on behalf of the sorcerer community (Worship Invisible God as part of every service, analogous to Yelmic lower priesthood presiding over the acceptable cults in Dara Happa). No idea whether that officiant needs to be a sorcerer to fuel the pool via the chain of veneration built into Kadeniti-derived city planning.

 

 

Edited July 17 by Joerg

[jajagappa]

23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

For spirit magic, ancestor worship seems to be a good alternative to temple-taught spells. The only problem with that is that this requires Malkioni shamans of Daka Fal, or sorcerers emulating shamanic services with specialized spells. In light of RQ3 era expectations the presence of shamans in Malkioni mainstream feels weird as hell.

We will need to wait for the Invisible God book to know for certain, but I expect that they are effectively "God-talkers" (and neither shamans nor sorcerers).

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Rex cult was introduced to the Hendriki in the late Second Age, across EWF territory, from the northern traditionalist tribes and liberated Orlanthi who fought the Dragonfriends and who had been introduced to this by Alakoring.

As noted in the LQB book, p.33, the Heortland clans follow the Vingkot rites, not the Rex rites. Effectively the same, but different origin and different requirements. Broyan followed the Vingkot rites to unify the Volsaxi clans. There have been no tribes/tribal kings among the Heortlings since Belintar's defeat of Andrin. His Governors assumed that role, though not the title.

Only those able to trace their descent from the god may initiate to Vingkot’s subcult. His cult is otherwise nearly identical with the Orlanth Rex subcult and provides the same special Rune magic. However, Vingkot’s Rex magic may be cast against members of any Orlanthi tribe that claims descent from Vingkot.

 

[jajagappa]

26 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

This would make the talars between 6-7% of the overall population.

Going back to Jeff's post on the Aeolians, I think his revised population of Aeolians was 50k, and the talars were similar in number to the sorcerers (~1500-2000), so 3-4% is probably the right figure. Both talars and zzaburi are organized into families with particular marriage arrangements between them.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

IMHO, the only way a heridatary caste system makes mythic sense is due to reflecting the flavor of Bless Pregnancy , or perhaps its sorcerous equivalent, used by their parents.

And if the wizard caste have a small boost to INT, then it would no longer be the case that the majority of them aren't wizards, but even so still a fairly large minority of the wizard caste are not wizards - and have no other particularly important function either, just Aeolian sorcerers seem to have a lot of assistants. This seems a rather silly way to run a Gloranthan society to me. 

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Note that for Brithini, the caste roles are set by birth order, not parentage. Which presumably comes from 'first child, cast this spell, second, that one'. Hence the word 'caste' used to describe the different spell results.

I don't think that is canon. But it certainly doesn't seem to be true for any post-Godtime Malkioni, and the Aeolians are very far from Brithini caste customs. 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Exclusively sorcery as with any Malkioni based culture.

First, this means a lot of them don't seem to do much at all then. A lot of them are not trained in sorcery, explicitly don't worship the Invisible God either, and can't worship any of the gods that they claim are personifications of the Invisible God either, or use any other magic. 

Which naturally leads us to some very odd conclusions - as the Talars are only eligible to join a few cults, and the wizards can't join any, and the various Lightbringers etc still have functional cults and so must have priests, so most of their best magicians are going to be commoners? And certainly better than those members of the wizard caste that can only use sorcery, but aren't taught it, so know no practical magic at all!

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Follow a tradition of ancestor worship but where Aeol, Orlanth, and Ernalda are ancestors. Issaries and Chalana Arroy might also be worshiped as ancestors as the culture is influenced by the Lightbringers.

Does that mean 'they worship their ancestors' or 'they worship the Lightbringers, but have conveniently discovered all the useful gods are their ancestors to pay lip service to Malkioni custom'? It sounds rather like the latter. If its the latter, that seems to contradict the rules book. 

I'd rather just keep the 'we worship the gods but its OK because we know they are our ancestors' as a Seshnegi thing - it seems to run counter to the Aeolian idea that the Lightbringers are worthy of worship. 

(also kind of extra hilarious, as they majority of the Orlanthi can probably claim to be descended from Orlanth via Vingkot and their tribal ancestors, but the endogamous Esvulari probably can't?)

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Rex cult was introduced to the Hendriki in the late Second Age, across EWF territory, from the northern traditionalist tribes and liberated Orlanthi who fought the Dragonfriends and who had been introduced to this by Alakoring.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

*Note: this is based on my draft for the Heortland book. However, work on the Invisible God Cults book might change any of the above.

The rulesbook seems to have already changed it, as it says the Aeolians worship the Lightbringers. "Unlike most Malkioni, the Aeolians view the Invisible God as too remote and too unapproachable to directly worship. Instead, they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications or emanations of the Creator."

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Rokari "recruit boys from any parental caste who are promising as zzaburi" dogma is a rather radical deviation from either the birth order or the parental caste model.

It does mean the Rokari have a functional wizard caste however, while the Aeolians have about half their wizard caste as people who know no sorcery or other magic, and just basically do their paperwork, apparently. 

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Do they initiate to specific deities like regular Orlanthi, or do they join a hodgepodge of spirit cults in their Esvulari tradition that grant a range of spells equivalent to that of their Orlanthi neighbors?

Yes, we could also ensure that the free caste commoners are also notably very bad at magic by deciding they only have spirit cults, and the best magicians of the whole culture are hitherto unmentioned shamans, yes. 

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In Greg's Dawn Age Brithos story (Hrestol's Saga part 2) from the late sixties, the Zzabur caste on Brithos included priests of rather abstract gods (and priestesses of ancestral Malkioni) who did not use powerfiul sorcery themselves but who invoked divine powers

Yes, but kind of the whole point of the Aeolians is that they already think the Lightbringers, as emanations of the Invisible God, are acceptable deities. And its a millennium and a half later etc. 

40 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Seshnegi talars have a strong element of ancestor worship, including deities (or their Malkioni look-alikes, like Kachast for Issaries and Tadenit for Lhankor Mhy). The Rokari talars with the dominant Fornoari families probably include some of the Old Gods of the Enerali in that ancestry.

Yes. But the Aeolians are explicitly not Rokari, or old Seshnegi. They believe the Lightbringer gods can be worshipped - just as long as its not by anyone that matters, apparently. And I don't think we know that the modern Seshnegi do the ancestor worship thing - that was known as more of a Dawn Age, Serpent Kings, thing. Modern Seshnegi Talars worship what gods the High Ecclesiarch says are ok. 

54 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Also, Brithini sorcerers know sorceries that duplicate high level  rune magic

And even the Ingareens are explicitly not as good at magic as them (except maybe when they get all heretic and crazy with machine gods etc). 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Rex cult was introduced to the Hendriki in the late Second Age, across EWF territory, from the northern traditionalist tribes and liberated Orlanthi who fought the Dragonfriends and who had been introduced to this by Alakoring.

And so the Esvulari who live next door have had many centuries to absorb the Rex rites. Belintar may even have deliberately tried to extend it, as it would benefit him.

 

[jajagappa]

34 minutes ago, davecake said:

The rulesbook seems to have already changed it, as it says the Aeolians worship the Lightbringers. "Unlike most Malkioni, the Aeolians view the Invisible God as too remote and too unapproachable to directly worship. Instead, they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications or emanations of the Creator."

No change there. That was already in place and foundational for the Heortland book.

34 minutes ago, davecake said:

while the Aeolians have about half their wizard caste as people who know no sorcery or other magic, and just basically do their paperwork, apparently. 

Or the wizards have ways to train the minds and intelligence of their caste? 

But there are plenty of other possibilities for those in the caste who do not meet the INT requirement. They have families/children to raise and teach (e.g. caste requirements, languages, rites, etc.). They maintain the temples to the Invisible God. They may serve as messengers for the members of the caste. They obtain the goods needed by their temples for the weekly rites (not "buying" but receiving what's due to the Invisible God). They serve as advisors for the talars (even if they do not know sorcery). 

34 minutes ago, davecake said:

And so the Esvulari who live next door have had many centuries to absorb the Rex rites. Belintar may even have deliberately tried to extend it, as it would benefit him.

Belintar explicitly removed the tribal kings/tribes (though was not able to fully do so in Volsaxiland (i.e. among the Kultain, Sylangi, etc.). There was no spread of Rex rites across Heortland. And they weren't needed! Belintar ruled. Belintar as God-king (or his Governor) could be fully present in each and every clan's temple and lead the rites on the Orlanth holy days. 

Edited July 17 by jajagappa

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

And if the wizard caste have a small boost to INT, then it would no longer be the case that the majority of them aren't wizards, but even so still a fairly large minority of the wizard caste are not wizards - and have no other particularly important function either, just Aeolian sorcerers seem to have a lot of assistants. This seems a rather silly way to run a Gloranthan society to me.

There have been other silly proposals about the Aeolians before...

I agree on the possibility for giving the castes slightly altered stats on a similar scale to the Praxian tribes (or at least three of them - Bison, High Llama, Rhino).

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Or the wizards have ways to train the minds and intelligence of their caste?

Which also would be a way to arrive at different methods of determining the INT of Aeolian zzaburi characters in character creation.

 

16 minutes ago, davecake said:

First, this means a lot of them don't seem to do much at all then. A lot of them are not trained in sorcery, explicitly don't worship the Invisible God either, and can't worship any of the gods that they claim are personifications of the Invisible God either, or use any other magic. 

Which naturally leads us to some very odd conclusions - as the Talars are only eligible to join a few cults, and the wizards can't join any, and the various Lightbringers etc still have functional cults and so must have priests, so most of their best magicians are going to be commoners? And certainly better than those members of the wizard caste that can only use sorcery, but aren't taught it, so know no practical magic at all!

As long as Orlanth, Issaries and Ernalda are included in the Talar spectrum of acceptable cults, most Rune Magic available to their Heortling neighbors are covered.

The amount of "neutered" Zzabur caste members depends on how their INT stat gets rolled. I don't expect an all genius caste of sorcerers - in fact, there should be rather a lot at best mediocre ones.

Conducting the Worship Invisible God rites might not require the officiating zzaburi to be a sorcerer. And, if we take Jaja's suggestion of having god talkers practicing Daka Fal magics for the Malkioni rather than shamans, that might be another career path for non-sorcerer members of the magical caste.

 

23 minutes ago, davecake said:

Does that mean 'they worship their ancestors' or 'they worship the Lightbringers, but have conveniently discovered all the useful gods are their ancestors to pay lip service to Malkioni custom'? It sounds rather like the latter. If its the latter, that seems to contradict the rules book.

The (somewhat hoaxy) "I am one of the Maseren" Zzabur story claims many of the Erasanchula who accept worship (aka the gods) as siblings of Zzabur and the Prophet, and thereby eligible ancestors even though they strayed from the paths of Logic (or whatever ideology is spouted as such).

The exact origin of both Esvulari Aeolians and God Forgot Ingareens are unpublished, possibly unknown/unknowable. They get mention as separate groups late in the Dawn Age and in the Imperial Age. By then, there seem to be Brithos-descended Brithini managing God Forgot.

I agree that "These gods are our ancestors anyway" is quite a bit of a cop-out.

 

23 minutes ago, davecake said:

I'd rather just keep the 'we worship the gods but its OK because we know they are our ancestors' as a Seshnegi thing - it seems to run counter to the Aeolian idea that the Lightbringers are worthy of worship. 

(also kind of extra hilarious, as they majority of the Orlanthi can probably claim to be descended from Orlanth via Vingkot and their tribal ancestors, but the endogamous Esvulari probably can't?)

Does "we know that we are descended from the Storm Brothers and the Downland Migration people of Dini" interfere in any way with "the Lightbringers and Eart pantheon are emanations of the Invisible God worthy of worship" that makes them exclusive from one another?

 

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

The rulesbook seems to have already changed it, as it says the Aeolians worship the Lightbringers. "Unlike most Malkioni, the Aeolians view the Invisible God as too remote and too unapproachable to directly worship. Instead, they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications or emanations of the Creator."

Worship of the (expanded) Lightbringers needn't automatically translate into "initiate into the cults of the Lightbringers or become rune levels".

 

 

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

It does mean the Rokari have a functional wizard caste however, while the Aeolians have about half their wizard caste as people who know no sorcery or other magic, and just basically do their paperwork, apparently.

On the other hand, the Rokari miss out on all the females able to become sorcerers. (Unless they have a spell or ritual for changing or removing the sex of children? Rokari sorcerers are supposed to be celibate, anyway.) Also, any inheritable properties (that the Talar caste prides itself in) is cut off by making the sorcerer caste celibate.

(Although the idea of cloistered female communities for the sole purpose of mothering strong sorcerers or cloning centers for the same purpose could come straight out of "The Iron Dream".)

 

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes, we could also ensure that the free caste commoners are also notably very bad at magic by deciding they only have spirit cults, and the best magicians of the whole culture are hitherto unmentioned shamans, yes.

That goes for the Rokari and the Loskalmi as well. The Seven Mothers aren't that different from a spirit society, really.

 

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

kind of the whole point of the Aeolians is that they already think the Lightbringers, as emanations of the Invisible God, are acceptable deities. And its a millennium and a half later etc.

Acceptable deities to offer sacrificial beasts to, and to bind their afterlife to, rather than opting for re-incarnation or ultimate Henosis?

 

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes. But the Aeolians are explicitly not Rokari, or old Seshnegi. They believe the Lightbringer gods can be worshipped

They aren't. They appear to be a sister culture to the Ingareens of Jon Barat, possibly a splinter group following the Aeolian revelations. (Personally, I always found the concept of a prophet by the name of Aeol extremely dubious.)

The Old Seshnegi were Brithini expats settling on Genertela, brought across the Neliomi Sea on Waertagi ships (or in case of the Neleoswal city state, people on a far corner of Brithela that the Neliomi invasion separated from the mainland). After Froalar's marriage to Seshna Likita, they actively worshipped the local Earth cult, and they already identified as descendants of the local Storm God.

 

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

the Aeolians ... believe the Lightbringer gods can be worshipped - just as long as its not by anyone that matters, apparently.

I did not argue that the Talars should not worship the Lightbringer deities, neither did Harald. I argued that non-sorcerer Zzaburi might even officiate at such cults, though not necessarily as rune priests or god talkers of those cults. Maybe as God Talkers of (the Ring of) Aeol, in a vague analogon to the Seven Mothers cult collective.

There is little point in Aeolian Talars worshipping Barntar the Plowman. Talars worshipping Eurmal might be mythically correct (if my EurMalkion the Sacrifice theory bears out) but would be terrible in practice, unless it would be a Firebringer Friend of Men phenomenon - but that seems to be a local Fronelan phenomenon.

 

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

And I don't think we know that the modern Seshnegi do the ancestor worship thing - that was known as more of a Dawn Age, Serpent Kings, thing. Modern Seshnegi Talars worship what gods the High Ecclesiarch says are ok.

Bailifes and his proud Fornoari nobility tracing their ancestry back to the sun god of Hrelar Amali certainly made sure that Ecclesiarch Mardron defined all their Man-of-All privileges and all of their Fornoari nobility privileges into the new (heterodox) definition of the Tanisoran Talar caste. The only thing Seshnegi about these noble  houses may have been Return to Rightness Men-of-All marrying into existing Fornoari nobility, a practice that might already have spawned Gerlant Flamesword an Age earlier (from the Silver Empire expansion) when he appeared ex machina (and without any genealogy given) to aid Arkat's army of Seshnegi against their Nysalorean brethren.

Anyone looking at the history of the Tanisoran kingdom and the Rokari school of Malkionism without fear of censoring will recognize a bunch of Logic fallacies in their tenets. Which might be oart of the Rokari success - a sorcerer who has achieved logical clarity will have to have had heretical thoughts yet has to behave before the Watchers. Only the Pithdarans might be able to exclude Leplain from their Old Hrestoli ways while confessing to Rokari values when away from home or before visitors.

Seshneg ancestor veneration was a thing for Svagad, the founder of the Middle Sea Empire dynasty (which was eligible as marriage partner for a Menenan from Brithos). A majority of the Old Seshnelan family survivors got caught up in the Luathan ritual and became the Beast Folk of Kanthor's Isles and Forest, but in Nolos and adjacent territories the old blood lines continued (and still do), although a certain portion of the staunchest Old Hrestoli left for the Castle Coast after the battles of Asgolan Fields.

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

And even the Ingareens are explicitly not as good at magic as the [Brithini Sorcerers] (except maybe when they get all heretic and crazy with machine gods etc).

I don't know - Carvak Zirian, that blue-skinned advisor of Belintar in Prince of Sartar did not give the impression of a magically impotent centuries-old sorcerer. He may have been among the top of the crop, but living past three centuries without showing any physical decrepitude is fairly good evidence for magical proficiency to me.

 

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

And so the Esvulari who live next door have had many centuries to absorb the Rex rites. Belintar may even have deliberately tried to extend it, as it would benefit him.

Belintar promoted a "Jrusteli" administration spread by the Slontans, but ultimately based on the First City built by the Kadenit, with achitecture promoting urban cohesion and the funneling of community magic to the higher ups in the Chain of Veneration. Something already the first Aeolian cities (Benswal?) may have exhibited.

But then, Alakoring came from the upper Tanier River, the heartlands of the old Kachisti empire in the Greatwood before the Nidan Uprising. The Danmalastan ways of ruling over a city-state or tribal confederation may well have become a tradition among their Enerali (or Pendali) successors before the Great Night.

 

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Belintar explicitly removed the tribal kings/tribes (though was not able to fully do so in Volsaxiland (i.e. among the Kultain, Sylangi, etc.). There was no spread of Rex rites across Heortland. And they weren't needed! Belintar ruled. Belintar as God-king (or his Governor) could be fully present in each and every clan's temple and lead the rites on the Orlanth holy days. 

Belintar did so more than a century after the Rex Kings of the Hendriki and their City Rex deputies came out of the Adjustment Wars. HotHP makes it seem that Rex worship was firmly established after the Machine Wars in Hendriki lands. Whether this extended to places that used to be subject to the Foreigner Laws (including the Esvulari) is a different question, but I expect Gardufar and Volsaxar to have experienced the Rex Cult during the Adjustment wars. No idea whether losing the Adjustment conflict was a set-back for the Rex kings and city-kings.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Going back to Jeff's post on the Aeolians, I think his revised population of Aeolians was 50k, and the talars were similar in number to the sorcerers (~1500-2000), so 3-4% is probably the right figure. Both talars and zzaburi are organized into families with particular marriage arrangements between them.

Heortland has a population of 628k according to the Guide and 10% Aeolianism (cf Mythology) gives 62.8k

God Forgot has 50k and 25% Aeolianism giving another 12.5 k making 75.3k (I think this is Bandori County and Refuge but the map in Mythology doesn't support this).

No Aeolians in the Rightarms (although it does have 2% Invisible God who I think are migrants and sailors from the West rather than God Forgot).

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

1) do they exclusively use sorcery, or do they combine sorcery and rune magic? Are they exclusively 'priests' of the Invisible God, or do they worship his emanations as well? If they do use Rune magic and lead worship, which deities? 

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Exclusively sorcery as with any Malkioni based culture.

I hope this is not the case. Using both would make them more unique.

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, PaulJW said:

If an Aeolian talar cannot become a Wind Lord, it would potentially mean that you would have an Orlanthi Wind Lord (commoner) commanded by an Orlanthi initiate (talar)

Even if, like you, what could be a talar disturbs me (I would prefer that there are not all the Malkioni restriction in « Orlanthi castes ») you may find anywhere Orlanthi wind lord commanded by Thunderous priests

so if (and until there is an official supplement I will keep this if) aeolian Talars must lead warriors without being warriors too then I imagine that the officer-talars must be priests of thunderous. Other talars leading diplomacy/economy for example must be (issaries or other) priests etc…

If you are born in the Talar caste you may be educated to lead a part of your community. As community leadership = priests position in most cases, those among the Talar caste who lead more than there own business should be priests (or rune level)

 

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Aeolian castes are endogamous and only marry among their caste.

What if an orphan is adopted from another caste? 

Are you able to convert to Aeolianism and if so what caste do you enter at? Would it be based on your existing social status? Is it based on one of the parents being Aeolian or do both need to be? Seems to me that they would tend to decrease in numbers if they were limited to only marrying only "pure" Aeolians?

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

RuneQuest2 Companion mentions their heavy cavalry (as "knights").

IIRC someone was very excited about form/set lighting on lance tips... how did that work as it sounds like it'd do a number on a good number of praxian beasts... just sayi

Years ago we played they could learn both, obviously had to pay to be taught. It makes those PC's unique and special... we loved it!

No one follows them and they are a social outcasts when it comes to military... status in name only and totally dependant on actual wealth rather than any sort of magical prowess... but then if they have a good number of rune points maybe they are also a rune priest or rune lord, god talker, acolyte, etc. and they'd be able to carry a good amount of political and military power?

Maybe lower intelligence permits sorcery but the manipulative skills or maximum skill levels are limited? Say at INT 12 they can only learn to 75% and at 10 only 50% or something like that?

7 hours ago, radmonger said:

Note that for Brithini, the caste roles are set by birth order, not parentage. Which presumably comes from 'first child, cast this spell, second, that one'. Hence the word 'caste' used to describe the different spell results.

Never knew this. Interesting to note that if the oldest dies do the others move up? Again what if one is adopted? It surely leaves so interpretation as to hierarchy?

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Exclusively sorcery as with any Malkioni based culture.

Not liking this (YGWV) love the Aeolian character Father Teoberdt from TotRM 13, Beyond the Building Wall, and the Capratis's like him, fun stuff. He does both socrecry and rune magic...

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We will need to wait for the Invisible God book to know for certain, but I expect that they are effectively "God-talkers" (and neither shamans nor sorcerers).

Maybe there will be a vote from the peanut gallery used to decide what way it goes. Again YGWV and "more gane fun" was always the best way when we played years ago. It'll stay the same. Rules are merely "guidelines".

4 hours ago, davecake said:

Which naturally leads us to some very odd conclusions

I think I agree, they as leaders of the Aeolian society should be able to move in and out of caste boundaries, marriage, cults, etc. as they make the laws they are able to bend them to their will. We played sorcery, spirit and divine magic... no one wanted to be from anywhere else than the Heortland Plateau and would wish to be Aeolian.

The PC's always had to be on the lookout for those who hated and feared sorcery...

4 hours ago, davecake said:

"Unlike most Malkioni, the Aeolians view the Invisible God as too remote and too unapproachable to directly worship. Instead, they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications or emanations of the Creator."

Exactly.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

It does mean the Rokari have a functional wizard caste however, while the Aeolians have about half their wizard caste as people who know no sorcery or other magic, and just basically do their paperwork, apparently. 

I had it so that boys or girls could be recruited from orphanages as all Aeolians have an opportunity to be adopted (birth could be interpreted as "initiated", YGMV) into a caste.

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No change there. That was already in place and foundational for the Heortland book.

And there was much rejoicing!

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Conducting the Worship Invisible God rites might not require the officiating zzaburi to be a sorcerer. And, if we take Jaja's suggestion of having god talkers practicing Daka Fal magics for the Malkioni rather than shamans, that might be another career path for non-sorcerer members of the magical caste.

I love the idea of an Invisible God shaman even that wasn't what you were suggesting. Come one come all and worship the Invisible God.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Acceptable deities to offer sacrificial beasts to, and to bind their afterlife to, rather than opting for re-incarnation or ultimate Henosis?

I liked the idea that they gave up live beast sacrifices and baked molded cakes shaped like the animals in question, where that came from I do not recall but the Aeolians should be more civilized than those hills Orlanthi running around in the rain... lol.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Worship of the (expanded) Lightbringers needn't automatically translate into "initiate into the cults of the Lightbringers or become rune levels".

But it does elude to those options being available, as always YGWV.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't know - Carvak Zirian, that blue-skinned advisor of Belintar in Prince of Sartar did not give the impression of a magically impotent centuries-old sorcerer. He may have been among the top of the crop, but living past three centuries without showing any physical decrepitude is fairly good evidence for magical proficiency to me.

Maybe they are able to make potions. There is a guy named Urvantan who we know who has the skill Alchemy (Brew Immortality Potion) and no sorcery is required, maybe?

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

I hope this is not the case. Using both would make them more unique.

Same, will not follow this even if it comes out as canon.

Sorry to voice my opinion here, not being so well versed on what is canon or not but this is really close to home for any PC's I'd have in the future campaigns I'll be involved in.

Thank you all, so much for one of the best threads (for me) in a while, where is the Heortland book!?

[radmonger]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Instead, they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications or emanations of the Creator."

If the cults map to castes, which seems plausible, then it could be:

Talar: Orlanth, Eurmal

Zzaburi: Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy

others: Ernalda, Issaries, ...

Zzaburi-caste members who flunk sorcery training fall back on Rune magic. Talars who are incapable of leading lean into being laughable buffoons who are still somehow magically useful to keep around.

One thing that is plausible to me is that this is the origin of the wider Orlanthi system of libraries and hospitals taking on full-time apprentices, to some of whom they teach sorcery. It's just outside Aeolianism this is determined by the magical sorting hat that is adulthood rites, rather than birth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are you able to convert to Aeolianism and if so what caste do you enter at?

Generally, no. Are there exceptions? Yes, and you enter as a commoner unless you can somehow prove lineage to another (but even then I suspect there must be considerable rites involved for purification, consecration, etc.) and your Devotion to the Invisible God (easier for an Esvulari or Malkioni talar to marry an Aeolian talar than any other route). As per Jeff's note: As an aside, I do not believe that the Aeolians try to convert anyone. I am not sure they even accept converts!

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

They appear to be a sister culture to the Ingareens of Jon Barat, possibly a splinter group following the Aeolian revelations. (Personally, I always found the concept of a prophet by the name of Aeol extremely dubious.)

I generally agree with that. I would put "Aeol" as a likely Lightbringer "prophet" who spread the story and converted some portion of the Ingareens to this hybrid worship that was acceptable if they still adhered to their castes. And it worked.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

I did not argue that the Talars should not worship the Lightbringer deities, neither did Harald.

Correct. The Aeolian talar either: worship Orlanth Thunderous and Ernalda (and Issaries/Chalana Arroy) as ancestors, or they are the priestly class of those cults. At this point we need to wait to see what direction Jeff finalizes on.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is little point in Aeolian Talars worshipping Barntar the Plowman. Talars worshipping Eurmal might be mythically correct

Talars do not worship Barntar. That deity is for the commoners and paired with the Grain Goddesses.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Belintar did so more than a century after the Rex Kings of the Hendriki and their City Rex deputies came out of the Adjustment Wars. HotHP makes it seem that Rex worship was firmly established after the Machine Wars in Hendriki lands.

As Jeff has previously noted, we cannot consider HotHP as a canonical source. Also, I don't see anything immediate in HotHP that says the Hendriki adopted the Rex cult rites, only that they adopted the Dragonbreaker (but I may have missed some reference?).

There was a distinct rite used for the King of Heortland before Belintar's arrival.

3 hours ago, Kloster said:

I hope this is not the case. Using both would make them more unique.

I have seen no indications that the zzaburi will use anything but sorcery in any of the Malkioni cultures. They get important benefits from maintaining their caste rules and restrictions.

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Heortland has a population of 628k according to the Guide

By 1625, the population has been cut to ~500k. It suffered severely in the Great Winter, the Lunar invasion and civil war, and from Gagix' hordes.

40 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I think I agree, they as leaders of the Aeolian society should be able to move in and out of caste boundaries, marriage, cults, etc. as they make the laws they are able to bend them to their will. We played sorcery, spirit and divine magic... no one wanted to be from anywhere else than the Heortland Plateau and would wish to be Aeolian.

The core of being an Aeolian is that they are distinct, they have rigid castes, and those castes are endogamous. It is the Aeolian culture. It's immaterial if someone else in Heortland would want to be an Aeolian - this is not a proselytizing culture and they are not looking for converts. They talars and zzaburi don't move out of their castes because they gain benefits from maintaining their Rightness in their caste. 

 

 

[metcalph]

On the subject of Aeolians and ancestral worship, my feelings are somewhat mixed.  The Carmanians who are in a similar position don't use the justification of duty to the ancestors to permit worship of the Gods.  So it should not be necessary for the Aeolians to do so.  I've see the Seshnegi usage as a means by the Wizards to influence their nobles away from shamanic worship of their ancestors towards large organized religions (which are easier to tax magic points from).  They also use the Great Error as a means of controlling what Gods can be worshipped and how they should be worshipped ("if you worship Aerlit *that* way, you'll go blind and get hair on the palms of your hands").  The long process of give and take between the two castes has resulted in an ill-defined consensus which form the basis of their society today.  Thus far the Seshnegi.

But the Aeolians actually see their main gods as being facets of the Invisible God (CoR: Prosopedia p3-4).  It is therefore right and proper to worship them in the manner in which they see fit.  Therefore there is no need for their wizards to invoke the ancestral justification to permit noble worship of their gods.  They are, by definition, doing the right thing!  That said, the Aeolian nobles do regard the gods as being their Ancestors.  Their Kings, Queens, Generals, Admirals etc are seen as being the sons and daughters of Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, Magasta and so forth.

As for other sects, the Carmanians would probably say something along the "worship of the Gods has its uses but the harms are greater" as their justification for regulation.  The Loskalmi would probably judge on the basis of "Does worship of this being impede contact with the Hidden Mover?" and so on.  

[Erol of Backford]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It is therefore right and proper to worship them in the manner in which they see fit. 

I like this, gives some flexibility in a seemingly rigid society.