Weapons & Equipment book: Spirit Magic Matrix Creation cost question.

[SeanF]

On pg. 55 of the Weapons and Equipment pdf it states the cost of having a Spirit Magic Matrix created: "Spirit Magic Matrix: Creating a spirit magic matrix for use by the customer. Price: 200 L per point of POW expended for its creation, plus the cost to learn such a spirit magic spell, plus the cost of the item."  Why is the cost of learning the spell included in the price? The point of matrices is so that the caster doesn't need learn the spell or spend CHA space on knowing the spell. Is this supposed to reflect the cost of the maker needing to learn the spell? If the maker already knows the spell, is this cost not incurred? 

[Runeblogger]

I guess the cost of learning the spell is included because someone who knows Bladesharp-6 will be much more difficult to find than someone who just knows Bladesharp-1, and so she can charge you more.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Runeblogger

[PhilHibbs]

All such prices should be seen as suggestions and guidelines anyway. The real cost is whatever the seller needs and thinks he can get, although Issaries traders are supposed to exchange fairly, and for most others deliberate swindling and gouging would be dishonourable.

Rare or large spells will naturally command a higher price.

Edited December 14, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Squaredeal Sten]

Cost of items in the real world is seldom the marginal cost of production. It normally includes some return on investment.  Why should Glorantha be different?  

Given scarcity of magic items (though your Glorantha may vary, to vary that would be a big change  ) the price should rise to the cost of achieving the spell by other means, and that includes the cost of learning it.

[jajagappa]

19 hours ago, SeanF said:

Price: 200 L per point of POW expended for its creation, plus the cost to learn such a spirit magic spell, plus the cost of the item."  Why is the cost of learning the spell included in the price? The point of matrices is so that the caster doesn't need learn the spell or spend CHA space on knowing the spell. Is this supposed to reflect the cost of the maker needing to learn the spell? If the maker already knows the spell, is this cost not incurred? 

The maker has had to incur the cost of learning the spell - which can be very expensive.  Is the maker creating this enchantment once?  In that case, the maker wants a return on the investment that covers POW + learning cost + some margin.  If the maker knows they will create the same enchantment multiple times, then they could spread the cost of learning the spell across multiple enchantments/buyers. 

At the end of the day, it's really on the maker of the enchantment to set the price - and on the buyer to try to Bargain the price down.  Optionally, the maker might set a task for the buyer to complete before delivery of the enchanted item.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The maker has had to incur the cost of learning the spell - which can be very expensive.  Is the maker creating this enchantment once?  In that case, the maker wants a return on the investment that covers POW + learning cost + some margin.  If the maker knows they will create the same enchantment multiple times, then they could spread the cost of learning the spell across multiple enchantments/buyers. 

At the end of the day, it's really on the maker of the enchantment to set the price - and on the buyer to try to Bargain the price down.  Optionally, the maker might set a task for the buyer to complete before delivery of the enchanted item.

Fully agreed, but I think the original question was more 'what if the maker already knows the spell?'. At least, this is how I understood his question. I know this is not RAW, but I think I would use half spell cost in that case, subject to bargain of course.

[Baron Wulfraed]

26 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Fully agreed, but I think the original question was more 'what if the maker already knows the spell?'. At least, this is how I understood his question. I know this is not RAW, but I think I would use half spell cost in that case, subject to bargain of course.

There is also the matter of the CHA limit to spirit magic spells one may know. Which is more likely to be considered viable by the maker of such matrices? Having three or four mid-level spells, vs having one super-level spell and a token of beginning level spells. I'd think the three or four mid-level spells would give this maker more opportunity to sell matrices than one costly high-level spell.

[Ian_W]

6 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

I'd think the three or four mid-level spells would give this maker more opportunity to sell matrices than one costly high-level spell.

Given a non-magical sword costs enough to feed a family for a year, spell matrixes are being bought by the very, very rich.

Anyone with that sort of money wants the very best, yeah ?

I'd absolutely expect a Protection-4 amulet to sell for more than twice a Protection-2 amulet.

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Kloster said:

but I think the original question was more 'what if the maker already knows the spell?'.

Then I'd scale it between a nominal cost to the full cost, probably based on either: 1) length of time the individual has been producing enchantments (the longer the time and more enchantments, the more the cost of learning has been covered); and 2) whether they are working solo (and need to factor in cost of living), or part of a temple/cult (and where that temple/cult is expecting a satisfactory profit margin/sufficient offerings to make it worth their while).

[PhilHibbs]

There does seem to be a lot of price and treasure inflation going on. The cost of living seems really low, when you can make such an enormous amount of money making trinkets for adventurers. And the loot from one of the scenarios in the GM pack is astronomical, harkening back to the RQ2 treasure hoard days.

[Ian_W]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

There does seem to be a lot of price and treasure inflation going on. The cost of living seems really low, when you can make such an enormous amount of money making trinkets for adventurers. And the loot from one of the scenarios in the GM pack is astronomical, harkening back to the RQ2 treasure hoard days.

The cost of living is low, but the cost of high end magic isn't.

 

Which is how it should be ... a spell matrix for a level 4+ spell *should* be a clan treasure, not an impulse purchase.

[PhilHibbs]

Another thing to take into account in the "POW economy" is that anyone who has spare POW and has access to enchantments has a responsibility to use it wisely. Enchantments are typically the purview of priests, and a priest just selling their POW to enrich their lifestyle should rightly be frowned upon. Nine tenths of that is cult dues.

Well, god-talkers get enchantment spells as well, and they only need to give up 50%.

Edited December 16, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Another thing to take into account in the "POW economy" is that anyone who has spare POW and has access to enchantments has a responsibility to use it wisely. Enchantments are typically the purview of priests, and a priest just selling their POW to enrich their lifestyle should rightly be frowned upon. Nine tenths of that is cult dues.

Important to remember that the caster only has to provide the first point of POW. This makes it a lot less onerous.

And if you're a priest, the money goes to the cult... which you can probably in turn control to a significant extent. If you're the head honcho, you're essentially paying to yourself.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Ian_W]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Important to remember that the caster only has to provide the first point of POW. This makes it a lot less onerous.

And if you're a priest, the money goes to the cult... which you can probably in turn control to a significant extent. If you're the head honcho, you're essentially paying to yourself.

However, what is more in the interest of the cult - mere cash, or the item staying in friendly hands, or the spiritual power remaining within the priest ?

[Joerg]

52 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

However, what is more in the interest of the cult - mere cash, or the item staying in friendly hands, or the spiritual power remaining within the priest ?

For an extra point of POW, the user group able to use the artifact can be defined during the enchantment. This remains in force even if something is added to the enchantment later on.

Most temples will require cult membership or possibly the explicit loan of the item to someone else by the highest priest of the temple, or something along tat line.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There does seem to be a lot of price and treasure inflation going on. The cost of living seems really low, when you can make such an enormous amount of money making trinkets for adventurers. And the loot from one of the scenarios in the GM pack is astronomical, harkening back to the RQ2 treasure hoard days.

Enormous amount of money.... very tempting...

On the other hand, when you put a point of POW into making an item for sale - or put more than one point by adding conditions to the item - you are selling off a slice of your soul.  Isn't that a disincentive to go out making a lot of magic items? 

Also, if you are a  priest you have to start enchanting with POW 19+, or by making an enchanted item you will reduce POW below 18 and force yourself out of the active priesthood.  And as i read it you don't get that priestly Divine Intervention roll either.  Down from the pinnacle of your career, a Temple position which you have fought, bled, and politicked for.  Money is not everything once you have satisfied your physical needs, while social and political power, dominance, a position in which people look up to you, maybe a position on the clan or tribal Ring, are all appealing. 

What are you going to do on Glorantha with another 600 Lunars?  it's not like you can buy central air conditioning in Prax. 

Also in gamer terms it weakens you for further adventuring, and you only get cash - which you already have plenty of if you are a priest, and 90% goes to the cult - so you have to share it unless you are a high priest.     This is not like sacrificing POW>18 for Rune spells / rune points, which strengthens you for further adventuring.  

I am not disagreeing with you about a scenario from the GM pack.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling, my nemesis.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

On the other hand, when you put a point of POW into making an item for sale - or put more than one point by adding conditions to the item - you are selling off a slice of your soul.

Are you really? I'm not so sure that "POW stat = your soul" is an accurate statement. Soul and spirit are often referred to as two different things, and I think your POW is more close to being your spirit. And of course the RuneQuest rules are an imperfect representation of Gloranthan reality (unless you're a RuneQuest Literalist) anyway.

Sorry, super off-topic! Well, maybe, it is still relevant to the "cost" of making a magic item.

Edited December 17, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

53 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sorry, super off-topic! Well, maybe, it is still relevant to the "cost" of making a magic item.

I think it is still relevant, because, whether POW is a measure of your soul or of your spiritual might, it is still a part of yourself. This is why I think the POW part of the cost of an enchant should be the largest, even if what you know (the spell) or the physical value of the item being enchanted should count.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Are you really? I'm not so sure that "POW stat = your soul" is an accurate statement. Soul and spirit are often referred to as two different things, and I think your POW is more close to being your spirit. And of course the RuneQuest rules are an imperfect representation of Gloranthan reality (unless you're a RuneQuest Literalist) anyway.

Given the five-part soul model for the Orlanthi (6 for Solars, 7 for Loonies), yes, you are giving away a portion of your soul when you invest in enchantments, DI, rune magic, runes, or when you are tapped.

But then, an artist or artisan pouring their soul into a work of theirs may be a figure of speech in our Christianity-moulded society, but may be a lot less so in a more animist world-view.

Only slightly different is the model where POW is the drive or energy of a person. The reactor that breeds the magic one can invest in their daily life.

This really makes me wonder whether any pious Gloranthan would walk around with their personal magic points topped up. It feels like not spending that life force is a dis-respect to Creation and its guardians.

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Given the five-part soul model for the Orlanthi (6 for Solars, 7 for Loonies), yes, you are giving away a portion of your soul when you invest in enchantments, DI, rune magic, runes, or when you are tapped.

It's a good thing it grows back! 🙂

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

But then, an artist or artisan pouring their soul into a work of theirs may be a figure of speech in our Christianity-moulded society, but may be a lot less so in a more animist world-view.

I like this a lot - it feels very Gloranthan that you wouldn't necessarily need specific magical technical expertise to create a magical item, but that it could happen in other ways.