Whose sorcery?

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

or LM school would teach that universe is both mass and wave runes and gods. The gods are { entities born from / people who mastered / I don't know } the runes.   But runes can be manipulated by mortals and the right way to practice it is to follow the truth god lessons.

Mortals who try to manipulate gods are blasphemers. Mortals who try to manipulate runes without LM lessons are blasphemers. Only LM teaches how to manipulate in the right way the runes not to manipulate himself.

LM does not teach his sages how to manipulate the Runes (i.e. become Gods).  He teaches them how to find/use Truth.  The point of the Torvald Fragments is not to teach LM sorcery per se, but how to safely use certain techniques that can discern Truth and therefore restore the Knowledge lost to the world in the Greater Darkness. 

In that sense, it is like using Lore (reading a recipe for instance) that allows you to perform a task (e.g. Craft: Cook) and produce a result.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

LM does not teach his sages how to manipulate the Runes (i.e. become Gods)

oh maybe my english failed again.  I used this word in this sentence to say obtain the effect of the spell by xxxx the runes (like using piano keys to obtain a musical effet) , not manipulate the Runes (aka the great powers)

 

[Richard S.]

Even if the intellectual "source" that sorcerers achieve union with to master runes and techniques is different for each philosophy, I don't really think that'd cause a great difference in how spells work for each group or what spells can be used by each. The spells are purely knowledge-based things that you learn through study, without any sort of higher power, and runes and techniques work the same regardless of where you master them from.

[Godlearner]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

you make a connection to the source

The source is the same, the path to it is different. Personally, I view Runes as the source and Techniques as the means. A God, a spirit or a sorcery spell (the structure you create then casting a sorcery spell) is the catalist for the power you call forth. Sorcery cuts out the 'middle man', of course since the sorcery spells are not pre complied (sorry for IT terminology 🤪 ) they take more time to learn and cast.

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That is certainly true among the rival factions in the Nochet temple, including the factions that refuse to use sorcery.

I really hope we see a publication about this.... 

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Kloster said:

Yes, obviously.

This, I don't think. For me LM (and the other cults that teach or merely allow sorcery) know that they are using things (runes/techniques/spells) that don't come from the god itself but from something completely different.

For me, a Malkioni say that the Invisible God created the life, the universe and everything (including the runes), but Malkion, as the first sorceror, discovered (and not created) the sorcerous runes and techniques.

I think we're saying the same thing here.

But to clarify, the Runes didn't come from that God (e.g., LM, Red Goddess) nor Malkion.

I think the Techniques might though. (Although in the case of the Invisible God, the Techniques are part of creation, so by definition, were created by.... It)

The spells are a different kettle of fish, and are just different ways to combine Rune(s) and Technique(s) to different effects.

My next post might highlight a difference... 

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Godlearner said:

The source is the same, the path to it is different.

Again, I think you're looking at this from a Godlearner perspective. And I think the differences that the actual people on the lozenge of Glorantha would see as large and significant enough to mean that the different sorceries (even the attunement to the Runes and Techniques) would be incompatible.

I point you to https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha/the-xeotam-dialogues/ **, and ask if there's going to be a significant difference in understanding of how sorcery works if one attunes (masters) the "Rune" of Orlanth or of Air (or Zrethus, or the Wumboli)? Earth or Ernalda (or Gata, or Likiti), etc?

If someone comes to the Runes from one direction, then they'll have a very different attitude and understanding of them than if they come from a different perspective/direction. At the very least, if one comes from a theistic view of the world (and Runes), then those elements will have personality, will, desire. If one sees them as impersonal universal mindless forces, then they won't have a personality or a will.... And different again if one perceives them somewhere in between (such as a Saint doing the work of the Invisible God).

That would also affect the Techniques, which are ways to interact with those Runes - abstract concepts, personalities, or something else?

There's baggage associated with them all, and I think that baggage is what makes the difference.

 

 

 

(**I sort of referenced this document and the ideas therein previously, but I didn't have the names I was after, and forgot where I had read it...)

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Again, I think you're looking at this from a Godlearner perspective.

Have you looked at my name? Anything I say is from a Godlearner perspective.

We are talking about sorcery which has been stated does not depend on Gods or Spirits. And, we are talking about learning sorcery from cults which were spread around by the Godlearners during the peak of their power. I do not think there is anything else to say. The arguments are in the thread and people can choose what they want to think from that.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:44 AM, Shiningbrow said:

if one comes from a theistic view of the world (and Runes), then those elements will have personality, will, desire. If one sees them as impersonal universal mindless forces, then they won't have a personality or a will....

but it depends what is a god (from the perspective of your sorcerer - theist)

do they consider god as the runes themselves, or do they consider the runes are (more or less) the god's "flesh" but god's soul comes from "elsewhere". Runes may affect the temper as our body may affect our judgment but not drive 100% the god's decision. Maybe the god's soul choosed the rune more than the rune(s) created the soul. Or a mutual primitive uleria union ?

Personaly, I would say that the runes have no awareness and are more "resources" used by those who have technics, when gods, well, are gods, with personality, etc...

In this view, a sorcerer-theist would say a god is a god and should be worshipped, but a rune is a rune and can be "used" with the knowledge (runes mastery) and the technics.

Are there different "technics" to summon ? maybe. Same for how you can demonstrate the same mathematic result.

Are these technics different because the gods are different ? I would prefer the option of a technic is based on logical rules, so some "scientists" idenfied several ways to "solve" the summon issue. and each way is a "school of sorcery"

Of course you may find a layout of religion, but at the end of the day, the technic is logical as sorcery is logic : maybe LM cult could have 2 or more schools and each school has a different [summon technic]. Maybe LM school 2 has the same [summon technic] than Hrestol school 4, once you forget the religion.

 

[Darius West]

On 1/14/2022 at 11:46 PM, jajagappa said:

That is certainly true among the rival factions in the Nochet temple, including the factions that refuse to use sorcery.

Perhaps doubly so there, but true everywhere.  Knowledge is power, and so LMs hoard it to maintain their power keep information that might be misused away from the unwise.