Whose sorcery?

[Darius West]

On 1/7/2022 at 2:18 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Where does the sorcery that is allowed by Issaries and Chalana Arroy come from? 

It is not so much that these cults teach sorcery, but rather that they don't care if members learn it.  I personally have the Arroin subcult involved in sorcery using a grimoire called "The Xemelic Remedies"(Accelerate Healing, Mend Flesh), as they don't have access to Divine Magic, and have a more skill based approach to healing.  Issaries may not have restrictions against sorcery but they also don't have a cult grimoire.

On 1/7/2022 at 2:18 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Is it godless Meldeki? Is it purified and holy Lhankoring?

I suspect that the term Meldek is generally used to describe Malkioni, who posed a threat to Orlanthi in the Second Age, and who have invaded the Heortlands, and thus pose an ongoing threat to the Orlanthi way of life.  I suspect the term isn't used much in cities but is more of a xenophobic parochial term.  Clearly what LM members do isn't meldekery because we know and trust them.

On 1/7/2022 at 2:18 PM, Shiningbrow said:

And given that learning new Runes or Techniques requires "achieving intellectual union with the source of their magic (be it the Invisible God, the One, the Great Mind, Logic, ..." , wouldn't that mean also being a member (initiate) of a cult that does teach sorcery?

As I have written elsewhere, I suspect that something a bit odd is going on...   To open a new rune requires a successful ritual and the expenditure of a point of POW.  This is akin to a self-initiation into the "worship" of a rune, much as when one forms a link to one's deity at initiation.  The difference being that the link to a god is a lot more active, with the deity having expectations of the worshipper, and the worshipper potentially getting a lot more power channeled from their deity.  The Sorcery Runes as deities have no egos, and aren't sentient; they expect nothing of their worshippers, but allow themselves to channel power that create certain magical effects when combined with other sorcery runes.  Are these principles existing within the mind of only the Invisible God?  Does Invisible Orlanth know them too?  What about other deities? The correct question might be "does it matter?", as the sorcerer forms an intellectual connection to the runic principle, and the rest might be a bit of incidental mythologizing to explain to themselves what they did when they don't entirely know.

On 1/7/2022 at 2:18 PM, Shiningbrow said:

And thus, could either of those learn from the other, or teach them? Or could/would they be incompatible?

Not only can sorcery be taught, it can also be learned from first principles by a detailed reading and experimentation with just a Grimoire.

On 1/7/2022 at 2:18 PM, Shiningbrow said:

And thus, could either of those learn from the other, or teach them? Or could/would they be incompatible?

Anyone who knows sorcery can teach it.  The only issue is that (RQG p384) that you only get INT-12 runes you may learn.  Thus if you have an INT of 15 you will only have access to 3 Runes, and they may not be the same as those of a potential grimoire or teacher.  This represents a hard limit on one's sorcery.  On the up-side however, it is possible to make new spells (RQG p390), so if your grimoire doesn't seem very full, you can potentially research new magic, but beware that each new spell you keep in your head reduces your Free INT (another limit on sorcery, but less hard, as you can unmemorize spells to free up your Free INT).

Edited January 10, 2022 by Darius West

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't think CA gives her followers any sorcery at all

Neither does Lhankor Mhy, but they have people who know it and it is considered a valuable tool and is taught to those who are willing and egar to learn.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I don't think CA gives her followers any sorcery at all,

Sorcery isn't given by a god, it's learned. The old Gods of Glorantha Cults Book said "Healers (initiates) may become shamans or sorcerers, as long as they maintain their cult vows." That implies to me that sorcery is entirely extracurricular to CA and is learned from outside sources such as LM in Orlanthi areas or Irrippi Ontor in the Empire.

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Neither does Lhankor Mhy, but they have people who know it and it is considered a valuable tool and is taught to those who are willing and egar to learn.

As I said earlier LM does not directly "give" sorcery, but the cult teaches it which I think is different to CA. This may be the same as you are saying.

[Godlearner]

36 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

As I said earlier LM does not directly "give" sorcery, but the cult teaches it which I think is different to CA. This may be the same as you are saying.

Exactly. I also beleive that the way it is taught may be different. In fact it is likely to be different from teacher to teaacher even if both are part of the same temple. May even use different Runes and Techniques for the same spell. 

[Darius West]

On 1/11/2022 at 1:49 AM, Godlearner said:

Neither does Lhankor Mhy, but they have people who know it and it is considered a valuable tool and is taught to those who are willing and egar to learn.

Lhankor Mhy gives sorcery as an option now in RQG, see page 298.  The grimoire is called the Torvald Fragments and teaches Enhance Int, Identify Otherworld Entity, Geomancy, Logical Clarity, Reveal Rune, Solace of the Logical Mind, Speak to Mind and Total Recall (p389).

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

The grimoire is called the Torvald Fragments

Yeah, and I am sure they have others that they keep secret and limited to a small group of "approved" students. 

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

Lhankor Mhy gives sorcery as an option now in RQG, see page 298.  The grimoire is called the Torvald Fragments and teaches Enhance Int, Identify Otherworld Entity, Geomancy, Logical Clarity, Reveal Rune, Solace of the Logical Mind, Speak to Mind and Total Recall (p389).

But is that LM giving it? Or just allowing it to happen? Did LM give those spells to Torvald? Or did he acquire them through his own efforts?

I find it a bit odd that LM is supposed to be a sorcerous deity, and brought that knowledge from the West... But within the cult, access is quite limited to, largely, only those Torvald Fragments.

Unless, this is merely the Sartarite version only that we're seeing currently, and there's a lot more coming (such as in the upcoming Esrolia/Nochet book)

[davecake]

Chalana Arroy and Issaries are cults that do not forbid sorcery, and are very widespread and include areas that commonly practice sorcery. Mostly, sorcery is used by either in Sartar only implicitly, in the sense that they acknowledge that other cult members in distant lands use it, and that it is an acceptable practice, but knowledge of it is rare. Though in particular, I think they both interact with their Aeolian counterparts readily. 

Chalana Arroy will use any form of healing knowledge they can find. I think for most of them, sorcery is like using alchemy for healing potions and antidotes etc - a technical knowledge that has uses - but rarer. In the West, where the Arroin sub-cult originates, and it is probably sometimes worshipped as an ancestral goddess (as Xemela) it’s more common - and adopting healing sorcery was natural to the early generators of Xemela, and sharing it with their fellow healers as it joined with other cults (such as Arroin, originally from Fronela) in the first age. In the Second Age it would be shared more widely as the God Learners promoted the cult - and I think the Sisters of Mercy sub-cult, which is quite dominant in the Sartar and Holy Country area, was created around this time and strongly believed in using all the healing tools available, and in particular embraced alchemical knowledge, though sorcery was simply not considered as useful due to the difficulty of learning compared to the powerful rune magic, so was never a widespread practice. So it’s mostly a rare pragmatic choice for central Genertela worshippers, the knowledge originally from Western sources, and it’s limited adoption has taken place within history. And is mostly just another branch of knowledge kept within the deep nunneries of the Sisters of Mercy, along with knowledge of poisons and antidotes and medicine, huge archives of alchemy and botany, healing spirit lord, etc. And while some sorcery will have been translated into more useful languages now, fundamentally the theory is Western - which doesn’t bother the healers that use it, to them the morality of a tool is first and foremost how you use it. 

Issaries I think similarly was a cult well established in the West in the First Age, and associated with some upper caste lineages that used sorcery (Talars have always had traditional responsibility for dealing with foreigners, including trade), and useful sorcery for trade and travel (mostly from the Kachasti, though the, not yet forbidden and denounced Telendarian school, was around as well) was known. And Issaries is obviously a cult that are no purists about foreign magic (Spell Trading, anyone) and travel widely, and so the purely Rune magic using traders and the Malkioni traders would have known of each other’s early, understood they had some differences but many overlaps in their magic traditions, and accepted them. This tradition would have continued through the second age as the cult was involved with the expansion of the Middle Sea Empire, primarily built on trade (and boy, how awesome would Spell Trading seem to a God Learner?), continued through the expansion of the Trader Princes in the third age. But I don’t think there is any faction within the Issaries cult in Sartar or most of the Holy Country (excluding the Aeolians I guess) that encourage the use or learning of sorcery by Issaries merchants - they just are consciously tolerant and welcoming of it, and clasp the hands of Western merchants and accept them. 

Lhankor Mhy is different. Knowledge of sorcery is a mythic secret of the god. While the knowledge comes in a sense from the West, it’s from mythic interaction with the West, and it has become part of LMs power and magic. It’s ever bit as much a native power of LM now as Orlanths weapons, though taken from other gods, are his. And LM retains this power to take sorcery and purify it. And this is important, because to LM knowledge is far more than a tool, but a sacred thing that you allow to fill you and change you. The magical process of translating from Western (or whatever) to Stone Scratchings is a magical one. Lhankor Mhy sorcerers mostly stick to ancient, and purified so it is now holy, sorcery. Some learn more, seeking out Western (or EWF, or Kralori, etc) sorcery - and individuals may just treat this as the acquisition of knowledge for its own sake - but ultimately, it’s to make such knowledge and purify it (by translation, and the Alien Combination Machine) and add it to Lhankor Mhy’s storehouse of sacred knowledge. The LM cult is perfectly capable of simultaneously believing that most sorcery is corrupt knowledge, full of subtle errors so that only they can be trusted with it, and that the sorcery of their own cult, even if it came ultimately from the same source, is sacred and holy. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But is that LM giving it? Or just allowing it to happen?

the LM cult gives the spells listed as they are tools for knowledge seekers

the LM cult allows their initiates to know other spells (as it is just science, after all) I would say the only issue is when the spell is used to do bad things (of course learning chaotic spells is evil, well I think). But that the same with everything, magic or not: you are allowed to use a sword, you are not allowed to use a sword to kill your priest

 

but LM cult is not LM

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Did LM give those spells to Torvald? Or did he acquire them through his own efforts?

then I don't know. But... the 2 options are maybe two masks of the same face

did Torvald get this knowledge during a heroquest, reenactig what LM did ?

Was this heroquest a voluntary one, or maybe, after studying scrolls and scrolls Torval was in a heroquest : staying at homeoffice but not anymore in mundane world. Discussing with someone who was not anymore but LM himself, given him elements triggering the understanding of the world

[Godlearner]

 

 

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But is that LM giving it? Or just allowing it to happen? Did LM give those spells to Torvald? Or did he acquire them through his own efforts?

In Jeff's words: 

Quote

 in the Second Age, the God Learners spread the Lightbringer cults of Chalana Arroy, Issaries, and Lhankor Mhy throughout the Middle Sea Empire.

The Gods themsleves had nothing to do with it. 

[Shiningbrow]

The history lessons have been good, but I think I need to rephrase my question.... 

To master a Rune or Technique, you need to get into a mystical (and intellectual) union with the source of your magic. For LMs, that's easy. For CA and Issaries, it's not so clear. And I'm quite sure that Malkioni and Lunars would /not/ suggest that their sources are the same.

So - what's the source for CA & Issaries? Who do they achieve that union with? It makes sense if they're also Initiates of LM (or even a Lunar cult), but I doubt a Malkioni would allow such corruption (even if the CA/Iss would be willing to go that route). Aeolian is a maybe... 

So, does this also mean that different traditions can't learn each other's spells at face value? Obviously, one can make their own version of it. But unless we say that ultimately it's all the same (which doesn't make sense having an Alien Combination Machine), then there's something implicitly different about them that doesn't allow that unchanged swapping of spells.

[Godlearner]

25 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

what's the source for CA & Issaries? Who do they achieve that union with

Quoting Jeff again

Quote

 

Sorcery isn't any of that. Sorcery is something that must be learned, and is arduous to learn. You must learn to construct vast memory palaces, and create mental connections with points in the God Time. A lot of that is just rote learning and takes years.

 

Then you learn spells. These are careful paths through these "memory palaces" and mental connections that enable you to create an effect in the mundane world. The limitations of this is obvious - you are slow, learning spells is difficult, only a tiny percentage of people have the time to learn how to do this (and must be supported by the rest of society). But the advantages? You don't need gods or spirits. You can cast any spell you are capable of learning (or creating).

 

You can lern any spell from ny tradition.

[Shiningbrow]

3 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

create mental connections with points in the God Time.

yes... You make a connection through your "source" (ie, your god) to some point in the God Time (if it has one). Just like a Heroquest, you will have your myths and world views, which is how you start out, and you won't be really able to do that coming from someone else's world view - especially if it's contradictory.

 

6 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

 You don't need gods or spirits

I think you're mis-construing what Jeff is getting at here. He's clearly making a comparison between sorcery and spirit/rune magic, when casting spells. I think the relevant word you missed in the following sentence was "capable".

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

word you missed i

You are trying to twist things which are pretty simple here. Sorcery give you a way to access power and cast magic magic without gods or spirits, period. It does not mtter if you learn the spell from a Lhankar Mhy grimore or are taught the spell by a Chalana Arroy healer, or you get it from a Lunar magician, or even if you get it somehow on a HeroQuest. 

[SDLeary]

10 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

You are trying to twist things which are pretty simple here. Sorcery give you a way to access power and cast magic magic without gods or spirits, period. It does not mtter if you learn the spell from a Lhankar Mhy grimore or are taught the spell by a Chalana Arroy healer, or you get it from a Lunar magician, or even if you get it somehow on a HeroQuest. 

I'm with your interpretation on this. The only real restrictions are corporate (Cult/Organization) or social (cultural taboos).

SDLeary

Edited January 14, 2022 by SDLeary

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Sorcery give you a way to access power and cast magic magic without gods or spirits, period.

In a practical sense, it’s probably more accurate to say sorcery gives you a way to cast magic, and thus access power without necessarily anthropomorphising it as spirits or gods. But sorcerers differ in their attitudes to the powers they command - many of them do treat those powers as spirits or even gods, though the differ to other forms of magic in how they relate to them. Even conservative Rokari Zzaburi, think spirits are a powerful useful potential resource in magic - you just command and bind them, rather than befriend them or let them occupy parts of your mind. And even Zzabur himself performs magic that uses the power of the gods - he just treats the gods as entities to be bent to his will by the use of his superior intellect. 

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

You are trying to twist things which are pretty simple here. Sorcery give you a way to access power and cast magic magic without gods or spirits, period. It does not mtter if you learn the spell from a Lhankar Mhy grimore or are taught the spell by a Chalana Arroy healer, or you get it from a Lunar magician, or even if you get it somehow on a HeroQuest. 

4 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I'm with your interpretation on this. The only real restrictions are corporate (Cult/Organization) or social (cultural taboos).

I completely agree with both of you.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

yes... You make a connection through your "source"

yes

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

(ie, your god)

that's, I think, the key point of the discussion:

your sorcery source is not Chalana or Issaries (from my understanding), you learned / studied / visited your source in your sorcery school(s ?)

And there is no Chalana or Issaries schools. Chalana and Issaries accept people from external schools.

But I don't know if the source are gods, or something more abstract / logical  and less ... sentient. I view LM sorcerers people who know how to discuss with their gods (rune spells) and were teached "where" they can find in godtime some "magical material" they can "invoke" to create mundane effects (sorcery spells)

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Godlearner said:

You are trying to twist things which are pretty simple here. Sorcery give you a way to access power and cast magic magic without gods or spirits, period. It does not mtter if you learn the spell from a Lhankar Mhy grimore or are taught the spell by a Chalana Arroy healer, or you get it from a Lunar magician, or even if you get it somehow on a HeroQuest. 

I don't think I'm "trying to twist"... I don't think it works that way at all, given the quote I've given from the RQG a couple of times now - you make a connection to the source - "To master a new Rune or technique, the sorcerer must achieve intellectual union with the source of their magic (be it the Invisible God, the One, the Great Mind, Logic, or
whatever the sorcerer’s philosophy holds to be the case). "

This fairly clearly indicates that the different "philosophies" (world views) access sorcery (at least the idea of the Runes & Techniques) through a different perspective, and that perspective is actually important.

As a Godlearner, I can understand why you would say it's completely irrelevant, because ultimately, they're all the same. However, as I've said, I'm quite sure that a LM sorcerer would not see their communion with LM, and accessing his knowledge, is the same as seeking the wisdom from one of the Seven Mothers (or the Red Moon herself).
Chalana Arroy and Issaries apparently don't know any of the Runes or Techniques themselves, and so their initiates would have to go elsewhere for them (although, we could argue that CA knows the Fertility Rune, and Issaries may provide understanding of Harmony...???)

You keep referring to the spells and learning them... I'm taking it back a step to the Runes and Techniques.....

[Shiningbrow]

25 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

your sorcery source is not Chalana or Issaries (from my understanding), you learned / studied / visited your source in your sorcery school(s ?)

But... the schools would teach a "philosophy". The Lhankor Mhy school would teach that sorcerous magic comes from Lhankor Mhy himself, as he learned the ways the Runes interact with each other, and found the Techniques (mystical manipulations) to use those Runes (aka, spells).

Meanwhile, a Malkioni would say that the Invisible God created the universe, and the Runes, and by extension, all the Techniques as well. And it's only by following the teachings given to us through Malkion that you can achieve that connection to the Invisible God in order to learn those Runes & Techniques. (Blasphemy, says the LM, and instantly puts anything from a Malkioni school through the Alien Combination Machine to clean it up, and have it align with their world view).

IRL, we have lots of different types of things called sorcery. They are all different perspectives and world views. If you're deeply connected to one (eg, a belief in a certain version of 'god'), then you're going to have serious issues trying to adapt to a very different world view to use a different sorcery.

[Kloster]

53 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

the schools would teach a "philosophy".

Yes, obviously.

53 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

The Lhankor Mhy school would teach that sorcerous magic comes from Lhankor Mhy himself, as he learned the ways the Runes interact with each other, and found the Techniques (mystical manipulations) to use those Runes (aka, spells).

This, I don't think. For me LM (and the other cults that teach or merely allow sorcery) know that they are using things (runes/techniques/spells) that don't come from the god itself but from something completely different.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Meanwhile, a Malkioni would say that the Invisible God created the universe, and the Runes, and by extension, all the Techniques as well.

For me, a Malkioni say that the Invisible God created the life, the universe and everything (including the runes), but Malkion, as the first sorceror, discovered (and not created) the sorcerous runes and techniques.

[Darius West]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:41 PM, Shiningbrow said:

But is that LM giving it? Or just allowing it to happen? Did LM give those spells to Torvald? Or did he acquire them through his own efforts?

I find it a bit odd that LM is supposed to be a sorcerous deity, and brought that knowledge from the West... But within the cult, access is quite limited to, largely, only those Torvald Fragments.

Unless, this is merely the Sartarite version only that we're seeing currently, and there's a lot more coming (such as in the upcoming Esrolia/Nochet book)

Torvald was a hero of LM of the Second Age and he used the powers of knowledge given to him by his god to unlock the powers of sorcery, which he then transcribed so that other LMs could learn them.  This led to Torvald's followers becoming effectively a sub-sect of LM, and for a while Belintar moved them to the Great Library in the City of Wonders in the third age.  The spells are translated from the Eternal Book which was written by Lhankor Mhy the deity, though some portions were recovered using a device known as the Alien Combination machine.  The Eternal Book was written by Lhankor Mhy but stolen by Zzabur.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:16 AM, Godlearner said:

Yeah, and I am sure they have others that they keep secret and limited to a small group of "approved" students. 

Lhankor Mhy is a greedy cult, and its members maintain individual private book collections, which will invariably contain sorcery grimoires other than the Torvald Fragments.

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

Lhankor Mhy is a greedy cult, and its members maintain individual private book collections, which will invariably contain sorcery grimoires other than the Torvald Fragments.

That is certainly true among the rival factions in the Nochet temple, including the factions that refuse to use sorcery.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But... the schools would teach a "philosophy". The Lhankor Mhy school would teach that sorcerous magic comes from Lhankor Mhy himself, as he learned the ways the Runes interact with each other, and found the Techniques (mystical manipulations) to use those Runes (aka, spells).

Meanwhile, a Malkioni would say that the Invisible God created the universe, and the Runes, and by extension, all the Techniques as well. And it's only by following the teachings given to us through Malkion that you can achieve that connection to the Invisible God in order to learn those Runes & Techniques. (Blasphemy, says the LM, and instantly puts anything from a Malkioni school through the Alien Combination Machine to clean it up, and have it align with their world view).

or LM school would teach that universe is both mass and wave runes and gods. The gods are { entities born from / people who mastered / I don't know } the runes.   But runes can be manipulated by mortals and the right way to practice it is to follow the truth god lessons.

Mortals who try to manipulate gods are blasphemers. Mortals who try to manipulate runes without LM lessons are blasphemers. Only LM teaches how to manipulate in the right way the runes not to manipulate himself. 

 

and Malkioni would teach that universe was created by the creator who defined rules runes as the universe organization. But runes can be manipulated by mortals (I includes Brithini, they can die, with a good sword 🙂 ) and the right way to practice it is to follow the true god lessons (or for Brithini the true sorcerer Zzabur)

Mortals who try (are they even able to try ?) to manipulate the creator are blasphemers. Mortals who try to manipule runes without the [school/prophet/xxx] lessons are blasphemers. Only [school/prophet/xxx] teaches how to manipulate in the right way the runes. 

 

if yo think of an illumination school, replace blasphemer by fool.
 

For me the only thing I know in gloranthan sorcery is there is no external POW and/or INT (spirit, god, ...)  to manipulate. Just the sorcerer and the runes / rules of the universe. That's why it must be hard to be a good sorcerer : you have to know what to do (your own skill %), not to command/request someone else to do : bladeshape spirit has 100% bladeshape skill as a human has 100% in breath skill, you "just" have to roll if you can command the spirit to use its skill)