Whose sorcery?

[Shiningbrow]

Just thinking on screen...

Where does the sorcery that is allowed by Issaries and Chalana Arroy come from? 

Is it godless Mekdeki? Is it purified and holy Lhankoring?

And given that learning new Runes or Techniques requires "achieving intellectual union with the source of their magic (be it the Invisible God, the One, the Great Mind, Logic, ..." , wouldn't that mean also being a member (initiate) of a cult that does teach sorcery?

And thus, could either of those learn from the other, or teach them? Or could/would they be incompatible?

 

(I realise I'm probably asking questions that should really be answered in some other upcoming book... And what we currently have is only a gapfill)

Edited January 7, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Richard S.]

If a CA or Issaries knows sorcery it could be from anywhere - LM, Malkioni, Lunar, Kralori, etc. Them allowing it just means you won't get kicked out for knowing any, it doesn't mean they actively teach it or have easy avenues for learning it.

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Where does the sorcery that is allowed by Issaries and Chalana Arroy come from? 

When Arkat converted to the worship of Orlanth and Humakt, he left his Hrestoli regalia in a temple. I can't remember where I read it, but I came across it in my research for Secrets of Dorastor.

Maybe those cults gained some of their sorcery from Arkat.

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just thinking on screen...

Where does the sorcery that is allowed by Issaries and Chalana Arroy come from? 

Is it godless Mekdeki? Is it purified and holy Lhankoring?

And given that learning new Runes or Techniques requires "achieving intellectual union with the source of their magic (be it the Invisible God, the One, the Great Mind, Logic, ..." , wouldn't that mean also being a member (initiate) of a cult that does teach sorcery?

And thus, could either of those learn from the other, or teach them? Or could/would they be incompatible?

 

(I realise I'm probably asking questions that should really be answered in some other upcoming book... And what we currently have is only a gapfill)

My understanding is you have to "reverse" (?) the point :

most of "sorcerors" should have been teached during their childhood, as sorcery is too different of what I call the "standard  thought pattern".

Very few people, already imbued of gods and spirits knowledge and experience, would be able to break their vision of the world with these concepts. Maybe illumination would be an easy answer (for a gm/player, not for a character), of course other solutions exist but in all cases with a lot of pain (time, passions, ...)

then if a cult like Issaries accepts sorcery users, for me it means that already sorcerers would be welcome as new initiates (of course with the same morale values than no sorcerers candidates, I mean I m not sure that someone known to kill people, by sword or by sorcery for few words will be welcome by Chalana cult).

 

So, from my perpective, I would discourage players to change during the play to change their regulars initiates of XXX to weird initiates of XXX learning sorcery if they hope to be efficient sorcerers. When I say discourage, it means explaining how much time they would waste to

1) prepare their mind (before learning any techniques / runes, you have to forget what you believed how the world works)

2) learn the techniques / runes

3) learn spells at ~10%

during this time... 2 - 3 -10 years ? they would not be able to do a lot scenarios. And after that, they will be able to cast a spell at 10%

But for sure if it is for the story, without any efficiency goal, that s would be a great point. In that case, they  would have to be accepted by any schools providing sorcery (same schools than to create a charater) For example the better option for a Sartarite  would be to be initiated to LM, then convince the wise people that you are able to learn, then migrate to a big temple providing lessons, etc... Well in fact, for a Sartarite, the better option would be to convince (who says kidnap ?) a godless sorcerer 😛

 

[kr0p0s]

I have read recently that the worship of Issaries, Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy were encouraged and spread within the Middle Sea Empire. Possiblly as a form of ancestor worship, given the direction of the discussion of the Malkioni recently. These cults would have be exposed to sorcery and integrated the practice within the cults within the Empire. After its collapse, survivors would have carried these practices to adjacent regions, especially Esrolia.

I don't think that sorcery "comes" from anywhere unlike rune and spirit magic. Malkionism is humanist and sees gods, spirits and runes as forces to be manipulated directly through the use of magical techniques and formulae.

[Joerg]

22 minutes ago, kr0p0s said:

I don't think that sorcery "comes" from anywhere unlike rune and spirit magic. Malkionism is humanist and sees gods, spirits and runes as forces to be manipulated directly through the use of magical techniques and formulae.

The Brithini seem to claim that sorcery came from or was given by Malkion the Prophet or an earlier, more primal incarnation of the Invisible God, and entrusted to Zzabur and those who followed the way of his caste.

The Waertagi use the same sorcery. They don't seem to restrict it to any castes, but then they aren't immortal unaging like their Brithini cousins, as far as we know.

The Kachasti (or Kachisti, after settling in Genertela along what later became the Nidan Mountain range) had Brithini castes when the Vadeli prisoners given into their oversight rebelled by suiciding. Their zzaburi are explicitly mentioned in Revealed Mythology. Enslaved by the Vadeli and/or Mostali, they could no longer maintain their caste requirements (except maybe for the workers), and became normal mortals, as did all of their offspring.

It looks like the earliest association of Issaries with sorcery  could have been the Kachisti republic/kingdom, or the Kachasti tribe in general.

Garzeen must have been active around the Dawn - possibly still in the Gray Age. He may have been a cult hero and/or an incarnation of Issaries, ultimately becoming the Middleman subcult. As far as I know, Froalar's Seshneg had only limited contact with other communities - the Britini colonies of Neleoswal, and potentially that of Arolanit, the Brithos homeland, the Waertagi as intercessors with Brithos, and the Pendali who had granted Froalar the land he built his dukedom on. Chances are that Garzeen was one of the Brithini who had followed Froalar to Seshnela.

Could he have been a Kachasti? Apparently yes, if you follow the Zzabur version of the history. Brithos did accept refugees from the other non-Vadeli tribes (excepting the Waertagi, who had no need to flee as they had become nomadic and mobile earlier on):

There were some Tadeniti and Kadeniti refugees who made it to Brithos from the conquest and destruction of the Tadeniti, and later the Double Belligerent Assault - Zzabur talks about separating these refugees into pure ones allowed to join the motherland on Brithos, and impure ones sent over to Genertela. The Kachasti had created a colonial empire (or at least a federation of satellite city states) in Genertela, but some remained on the mainland, and may have been forced to flee to Brithos in the conflict with the Banthites.

But then, at least one non-sorcerous Issaries has always been known, too, Harst Spare Grain, native to the Orlanthi, possibly already on the Downland Migration from Dini on the flank of the Spike.

 

Lhankor Mhy and his knowledge of Everything necessarily encompasses the knowledge-based magic of sorcery. But then, many people who have learned e.g. a foreign language can attest that having gained the knowledge doesn't necessarily mean proficiency. Lhankor Mhy manifests as the inventor of writing, which would have been Tadenit in the ancient six tribes of the Logicians.
IMG, YGWV: Together with Zzabur, Tadenit or his followers invented writing on the living skin of foes, which earned them te special enmity of the children of Vadel, and led to the destruction of the Tadeniti branch of the republic of Logic. As outlined above, there were survivors from that assault who made it to Brithos, some allowed to remain, the rest sent off eastwards to join the Kachisti or form new satellite cities (colonies) of their own. Carried by the Waertagi, whose range eastward was llimited to the extent of the Neliomi Sea most of the prehistory of the Logicians.

[Joerg]

There is one surviving outpost of the Logicians further east than the Neliomi shore - God Forgot. Probably brought there by the Waertagi rather than an extremely long ranging group of Kachisti, and judging from their aptitude for artificing, possibly of strongly Kadeniti origin - the builders of the six tribes of the Logicians, whose lands were overrun in the Double Belligerent Assault, and subsequently drowned, although only after the Storm Age Flood, in the Breaking of the World marking the transition from the Lesser to the Greater Darkness.

There was a brief interlude which could have established the Ingareen colony during the Flood in the Storm Age, after the victory over Worcha but before Faralinthor became isolated from the oceans and dried up.

Alternatively, the Waertagi could have carried the Ingareens to the Leftarm archipelago after the Breaking of the World and the revival of Choralinthor, long after the Expulsion Walk of Old Malkion aka Malkion the Sacrifice, but that would make their claim that their god (Malkion) forgot them problematic.

A third option would be that they were a satellite colony of the city of New Malkonwal, having traveled along the Faralinthor shore to the place that would become the Leftarm Archipelago. Not all Walkers who founded New Malkonwal need to have been present for the Fifth Action. In the light of their "God Forgot" wail, this third option might become my new favorite.

The Ingareens did receive a Brithini Talar before the Dawn, after the Breaking of the World, and as far as I know, the Talar would have brought a support cast of Brithini immortals, although likely he had to select from the less pure ones Zzabur wanted off his island paradise-to-be.

 

Zzabur's periodically cleansing of disobedient dissident reasoning created as periodically an influx of sorcerers to the rest of the world. Many were absorbed by the colonies along the Neliomi coast, but others may have been carried further east on Waertagi ships.

We know of the Waertagi ruins at Sog's Ruins in southwestern Prax. Once a Waertagi drydock near the Ingareens, it fell dry/out of use, and it looks like they approached Nochet afterwards, during the Dawn Age, establishing their city-ship sized docks there. (Those docks appear to have been destroyed in the Devastation of the Vent.)

The Entruli of Slontos (Ramalia, Wenelia) had contact with the Waertagi within the second century after the Dawn, much likely already before the Dawn. The Olodo were transported from there to Jrustela and later Umathela during the Dawn Age, after Lalmor of the Vathmai had brought the Lightbringer rites and magic to Slontos. He may have encountered sorcerers there.

Boltror the Traveler, the serpent-legged son of Sonmalos, the son of Aignor the Trader, a Vadeli-mothered grandson of Hrestol, and of Seshna Likita, left his father's kingdom on a Waertagi ship and returned with a wife from the East. That East appears to have been east of the Basmoli and Pralori-inhabited Tanier estuary, which makes Slontos or Kethaela a likely place of origin. Either place had cities and earth cults that would appreciate the earth-ness of the serpent-legged prince. It isn't quite clear whether Boltror traveled solitarily as a Man-of-All on a great quest,, or whether he traveled with an entourage of sufficiently adventurous or ambitious fellow courtiers. In the latter case, those would have included more men-of-all and some zzaburi advisors. Boltror returned after 13 years, long enough for him or his companions to have spread Man-of-All initiation or sorcery to friendly natives. And it sounds unlikely that his wife and children were the only easterners to accompany Boltror on his return trip, whether to stay with their kinswoman Pamala or whether to return home on a later Waertagi ship bringing back Serpent King Seshnegi knowledge and magic.

[Joerg]

YGWV

Then what about non-Logician-sourced sorcery? We know of the Sherapdara son of Vith who visited the Western  portion of the world outside of Vithela, and who returned with sorcery, but that going west and returning may mean that he made contact with the sorcerers of the Vadeli or (less likely) the Brithini and was taught that knowledge.

The Vadeli after the Closing are known as the merchants of doom. During the Gods War, they were conquerors and slave takers, but they are known to have traded with the Mostali, and they may have traded with whoever was too powerful for them to enslave or conquer.

We know that Vadel's initial interaction with Pamaltela was assisted by Zzabur (and thereby tacitly approved, even of the Talar may have had to uphold a directive not to go there). Vadel's double dealings with the Mostali led to Zzabur becoming suspicious of and ultimately hostile to Vadel, who lost his living skin for stationery before death (probably dismemberment, as this could have happened in the Late Golden Age - the God Learner Map on p.683 seems to confirm that the God Learners put that part of their prehistory in the Late Golden Age, before Death, too.).

Maybe the Vadeli version of the Sword Story has Vadel as the first victim of Death? While they avoid aging, they are subject to violent deaths, and in the absence of the Blue Vadeli, their ability to sorcerously resurrect victims of violent deaths may be limited.

On the other hand, the Vadeli know of sorcerous resurrection, and they may have passed on that information (if not the technique) to the cult of Chalana Arroy. Possibly already before or during her Lightbringer's Quest.

 

The Mostali are the other major source of sorcery. They hate sharing their knowledge, but the Vimorn stories in Middle Sea Empire tell about the Golden Caste intercessor with Vimorn teaching his magic (likely that of a Silver Caste follower), but being denied the prize of acknowledgement which instead went to the Grower (probably an Aldryami lord or lady). So the Vadeli had both Zzaburi and Mostali sorcery to trade. The Artmali may have learned some, possibly as slaves who then escaped or were liberated, possibly in conquest, and blue-skinned sorcerous sailors plagued the refugees from Thinobutu. As did sprcerous antigods from Vithela.

[Godlearner]

Jeff has recently (like yesterday and the day before) posted some very intersting information on the top of Sorcery and Malkioni in general on Facebook. It is up to him to repost it here if he wishes, but a lot of it went to the root of the question here. 

Is it possible for someone to pick up Sorcery later in life? .... yes. Will it take a LOT of time and study? .... YES.  Is there a shortcut? ... Of course, one wold just need to know the right HeroQuest.

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Jeff has recently (like yesterday and the day before) posted some very intersting information on the top of Sorcery and Malkioni in general on Facebook. It is up to him to repost it here if he wishes

I've reposted most of those threads - see:

and:

 

[Shiningbrow]

@Joerg some interesting background, but for an get to the heart of my questions.

Which is about how sorcery is learner and practiced by cults such as Issaries & Chalana Arroy. Do they use Lhankoring sorcery, and so it's all gone through the Alien Recombination Machine? Or some other form. And thus, they could swap spell teaching? Or would it be incompatible?

Or... Are we looking at a situation where cult associations are such that multiple initiation is occurring in order to learn the techniques?

Are sorcerous cults willing to teach anyone who can pay?

And could a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer pay, say, a Lunar magician to teach them a spell that they could then use within their current paradigm, or would they have to completely re-acquire their techniques etc (ie, the sorcery is incompatible).

 

For the CA & Issaries, I'd presume it relates to where in the world they are, and because they're both fairly open and tolerant cults, they'd be open to adopting almost any way...

 

[Godlearner]

9 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Are we looking at a situation where cult associations are such that multiple initiation is occurring in order to learn the techniques

Jeff wrote

Quote

 

Sorcery is something that must be learned, and is arduous to learn. You must learn to construct vast memory palaces, and create mental connections with points in the God Time. A lot of that is just rote learning and takes years.

 

Then you learn spells. These are careful paths through these "memory palaces" and mental connections that enable you to create an effect in the mundane world. The limitations of this is obvious - you are slow, learning spells is difficult, only a tiny percentage of people have the time to learn how to do this (and must be supported by the rest of society). But the advantages? You don't need gods or spirits. You can cast any spell you are capable of learning (or creating).

 

The only difference in learning a spell from a Lunar maybe that it uses a rune or technique which is not used or taught by your cult.

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 minute ago, Godlearner said:

Jeff wrote

The only difference in learning a spell from a Lunar maybe that it uses a rune or technique which is not used or taught by your cult.

 

Except... When learning Runes and Techniques, you need to go to its source (as per the quote from the book in the OP). I would think that this then affects how the spells are conceived in your mind.

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... When learning Runes and Techniques, you need to go to its source (as per the quote from the book in the OP). I would think that this then affects how the spells are conceived in your mind.

The "source" referenced in the text is the same for everyone, just given different names depending on how the sorcerer views it.

[Joerg]

i

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

@Joerg some interesting background, but for an get to the heart of my questions.

Which is about how sorcery is learner and practiced by cults such as Issaries & Chalana Arroy. Do they use Lhankoring sorcery, and so it's all gone through the Alien Recombination Machine? Or some other form. And thus, they could swap spell teaching? Or would it be incompatible?

In order to become a sorcerer, one has to be literate, That means you need to be a lay worshipper of Lhankor Mhy.

You need instruction to master a technique and and at least one rune. Which you probably do with a set of simple and totally ineffective spells that do nothing but let you pour magic into a magical construct. If the teachers are in any way pragmatic, those training spells will feed a magic battery for them, and the learning effect is to make a metaphorical lightbulb on the way flicker.

From Jeff's recent writings about sorcery, the Alien Recmbination Machine sounds like a philosophical and / or magical construct serving as a memiry palace to latch your sorcerous techniques and mastery of the runes to.

Not Gloranthan, but using a similar memory palace approach, are the Iron Druid stores by Kevin Hearne, which devote a couple of books to following the magical education of his companion. Hearne's druid builds mind spaces by operating in multiple languages, to be able to maintain one mental construct say in old Brithini while creating a new one in Heortling. I suppose different natural philosophies or different epic poems might serve, too.

When it comes to theist cults other than Lhankor Mhy to teach sorcery, those memory palaces and mental spaces might already exist in the deep myths of their cult entity. A student would most likely be introduced to a memory palace technique of the teacher. Lhankor Mhy's sorcery used to be called alchemy, which mightt be a hint what memory palace was used by Thorvald. Being a chemist, the lab techniques that require some concentration yet have to happen while you do something else to get the process  going on might be helpful.

The Kalevala has the song of iron, a poem passed on to aid a healer treating wounds, maybe more specifically combat wounds. It might be the general framework for Dismiss Death.

Music or choreography might be a way, or matial arts katas. We associate casting a magic spell with hand gestures, which are also used in many forms of dancing - think Indian temple dances. Of course, theists and mystics use these, too.

The literacy requirement for RQG sorcery makes it different from the druidic or Kalevalan spell-singer sorcery, but I suppose that is a detail one can adapt. I wouldn't be surprised if the Third Eye Blue smiths have their sorcerous patterns in the hammer song and the stoking of the fires rather than as verbalized concepts that can be written down. Chalana Arroy sorcery might use anatomical knowledge as its memory palace. These cults might replace the literacy requirement with one of their cult skills, which may then limit their sorcery in scope. For a Chalana Arroy sorcerer, I suppose that's just fine as it goes hand in hand with their vows and taboos.

Finally, we don't have the sorcerous Ritual of Opening yet for a non-sorcerer Openers to cast. The Cult of Dormal teaches thie ritual even to illiterate sailors, although teaching the ritual most likely involves teaching the mnenonic technique along with the rite.

Your average Opener doesn't sorcerously master the Water rune, nor does he master the Command technique, but still he manages to infuse the keel water of the ship with the change in attitude that neutralizes whatever Zzabur's (?) Spell of Closing did to the Seas.

 

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or... Are we looking at a situation where cult associations are such that multiple initiation is occurring in order to learn the techniques?

Intensive lay membership is required for the Read/Write skill.

 

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Are sorcerous cults willing to teach anyone who can pay?

To any who join up and have shown enough devotion for a sufficient time learning only preparatory steps. Think Karate Kid 1. Learning sorcery is an exercise just in that kind of frustration, only much more of it.

The Cult of Pavis teaches some sorcery, it seems, to initiates in good standing (i.e. with a track record of reliability and genuine desire to act for the city).

The Cult of Dormal probably requires loyalty to ship (which may have a spirit, or be a wyter) and crew.

Lhankor Mhy sells knowledge, but demands outrageous prices, and/or an equivalent amount of knowledge deposited. Initiates doing research probably are on a pay per view scheme, while god talkers get a limited flat rate. And Issaries is a cult of mercenary magicians and spell traders already without sorcery.

 

You can always find a Vadeli willing to teach you sorcery for a price. The teaching probably involves Chemtrail or QAnon analogs mental constructs that leads to a MVGA agenda.

 

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And could a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer pay, say, a Lunar magician to teach them a spell that they could then use within their current paradigm, or would they have to completely re-acquire their techniques etc (ie, the sorcery is incompatible).

That's the great question about "low sorcery", learning spells where the spell knowledge contains sufficient knowledge but no mastery of either the techniques or the runes.

And whether sorcery learned that way needs to be unlearned to master the runes and techniques.

All that stuff about memory palaces might still be required for someone without mastery of Command or Water to cast the ritual.

 

Your concrete example of the Lunar sorcerer gets more complicated because of the Lunar Phases, but I suppose that is part and parcel of mastering the Moon Rune, without which such an exchange would be meaningless anyway since Lunar sorcery revolves around that rune.

 

Let me finish with a sorcerous dictum that applies to my Glorantha:

A sorcerous spell is an energetic construct similar to a spirit. It is ephemeral, relying on the energy (MP) placed into it that upholds the entire construct. The sorcerer has to visualize the entirety of this construct - maybe like a piece of orchestral music with multiple voices creating harmony and dissonance, maybe as a Rube Goldberg contraption. While active (like say Steal Breath), the sorcerer must operate a mental construct of a joystick or similar to direct the spell, when he stops doing so, the effects of the spell (in case of Steal Breath the container to house the tapped magic) stays around but doesn't do anything beyond its basic function any more.

When using a spell to attack a creature that can resist the spell, it is the energy inside the spell and not the POW of the sorcerer which contests. The sorcerer does not entangle his soul directly with the spell target but uses the spell as an intermediate.

[Kloster]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And could a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer pay, say, a Lunar magician to teach them a spell that they could then use within their current paradigm, or would they have to completely re-acquire their techniques etc (ie, the sorcery is incompatible).

For me, yes. Sorcery is the same, source of power is the same, and mental constructs are the same. The would need to have a written common language, though. But once you have access to the rune(s) and technique(s), you can use them.

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

In order to become a sorcerer, one has to be literate, That means you need to be a lay worshipper of Lhankor Mhy.

Or you can go visit the Seven Mother's temple.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Or you can go visit the Seven Mother's temple.

Which makes you a lay worshipper of Irrippi Ontor or Buserian - in the end, a lay worshipper of LM.

[Shiningbrow]

22 hours ago, Richard S. said:

The "source" referenced in the text is the same for everyone, just given different names depending on how the sorcerer views it.

That's that God Learners heresy stuff you're talking there!!! 

Besides which... How to approach it, and all the contexts added in, will be important! After all, is the Air Rune a non-intelligent force created by the Invisible God (I've read the terminology, but never bothered to commit it to memory... I'm sure others here have), it is it Orlanth, or something completely different? Is the Lunar vision and experience of, say, Death the same as the others?

IRL, we have quite a number of different things labelled "sorcery", and they tend to be very different, even when they have a similar background.

So, no. I don't think they are reaching to the same source.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Kloster said:

For me, yes. Sorcery is the same, source of power is the same, and mental constructs are the same. The would need to have a written common language, though. But once you have access to the rune(s) and technique(s), you can use them.

See my reply above about sources.

To add to that, I think I see sorcery as like making music. Different traditions all over the world access and deliver music, but in very different ways, using vastly different tools, delivering different - even if similar - sounds.

For the analogy, different sources and different techniques and tools can lead to very similar effects. Imagine the amount of time and energy spent learning will be fairly similar though.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

You can always find a Vadeli willing to teach you sorcery for a price.

I'm the middle of Clearwine? I doubt it 😛

You have some interesting stances, especially that "Low Sorcery" idea. I do hope it becomes canon, as may sorcerous spell enchantments - no Runes or Techniques required to be learned, but zero variations to the way the spell comes out. (rather expensive in POW though)

 

Do hostile cults tolerate Lay Membership in their others? Initiation is clearly out. And Malia is propitiated (isn't that effectively Lay Membership??)

[Godlearner]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

That's that God Learners heresy stuff you're talking there!!! 

And you point is?

 

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Air Rune a non-intelligent force created by the Invisible God

Is it now? I do not think so. Runes are not the creation of the Invible God.

[David Scott]

On 1/7/2022 at 3:18 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Where does the sorcery that is allowed by Issaries and Chalana Arroy come from? 

Themselves.

On 1/7/2022 at 3:18 AM, Shiningbrow said:

wouldn't that mean also being a member (initiate) of a cult that does teach sorcery?

Maybe. We only have the bare outline of how sorcery works, and it emphasises Lhankor Mhy philosophers or scribes. Then it says that LM doesn't teach sorcery to any who aren't initiates.

The key phrase is the one that you've highlighted

On 1/7/2022 at 3:18 AM, Shiningbrow said:

And given that learning new Runes or Techniques requires "achieving intellectual union with the source of their magic (be it the Invisible God, the One, the Great Mind, Logic, ..." ,

So for Lhankor Mhy that will be Lhankor Mhy. The key understanding is realising that you can achieve intellectual union with your god. Those that can understand this philosophically can follow the sorcerous path, those that can't don't we don't need to figure out who can and who can't as it's experience based.

This also gives scope for shortened versions of sorcery. Those who know a limited version, like the open seas ritual. Looking at Chalana Arroy, she is the source of the Harmony rune. In the rules there is no link between an adventurers rune % and mastering a rune, perhaps with cults that are the source of rune, an intellectual union is possible due to this connection. So with a minimum of Harmony 90%, Worship (Chalana Arroy) 90%, and some literacy, a Chalana Arroy could achieve intellectual union with their god with a Chalana Arroy teacher who knew how to do this (maybe a hero cult or a cult secret etc. Costs two POW and they can only learn Harmony & Command. The spell list is limited too. Imagine them as sutras written on the leaves of a healing plant (like a palm leaf manuscript). All of this is clearly an artefact of the God Learners. As a plot hook, there is a full blown CA healing sorcerer out there somewhere.

On 1/7/2022 at 3:18 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Or could/would they be incompatible?

LM could look at the CA scriptures and interpret them as formulae. But may not be skilled enough to use them (or want to)

The CA would likely have no interest in LM spells unless they were healing ones and written in an appropriate form.

On 1/7/2022 at 3:18 AM, Shiningbrow said:

And thus, could either of those learn from the other, or teach them?

That's a game story hook.

[Shiningbrow]

On 1/8/2022 at 5:27 PM, Joerg said:

You can always find a Vadeli willing to teach you sorcery for a price.

I'm the middle of Clearwine? I doubt it 😛

You have some interesting stances, especially that "Low Sorcery" idea. I do hope it becomes canon, as may sorcerous spell enchantments - no Runes or Techniques required to be learned, but zero variations to the way the spell comes out. (rather expensive in POW though)

[Shiningbrow]

@David Scott some interesting ideas there... 

I don't think CA gives her followers any sorcery at all, and as you mention, knowing the Rune is not the same as having attuned to it to use it in sorcery. (Also, she'd give Fertility/Life rather than Harmony).

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

The CA would likely have no interest in LM spells unless they were healing ones and written in an appropriate form.

Logician... Very very useful for knowing and preparing your medicines. Avoiding damage spells as well (be it physical, magical or spiritual).