Detect Enemies as spoiler

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

In that case, the wyter needs to be an initiate or priest of a greater deity than itself. That's entirely possible - even Orlanth started his questing addressing a higher power.

I think it's a bit of a mess, the wyters that have been depicted as having RP. There's nothing in the rules to justify it and it muddies the waters leading to confusion like this. That's where we are, but I don't think I will use wyters with rune points.

[Dragon]

19 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Of course, they can. But 5 Rune Points - one the spell, four for Extension for a season - permanently dedicated to Find Enemy is a lot. Really useful, but a lot! Sure, someone will do it, but it will be rare. There's also the chance that you will succeed in casting the Find Enemy but fail the Extension roll, so you need a spare point for that eventuality. If you regularly put your group up against foes willing to throw 5 RP around all the time, then fine. I don't, maybe the occasional spell to liven things up, more if it's a special occasion. Random guard? 3 RP at most.

Interesting. I have thought stackable spells were cast with one cast roll. Extension is effectively stacked with the spell with which it is cast. Extension can be cast with any Rune, and hence at the same percentage as the spell with which it is cast. The spell states 'The Extension spell and the spell to be extended must be cast by the same person in the same melee round, and for all game functions are cast simultaneously." RBoM page 49-50. I can read all that as backing up my assertion that it is cast with one roll. Not one roll for Find Enemy and another for Extension. I can also see it is open ended enough that it could be two rolls.

An corollary is that if a critical is rolled, in my Glorantha, all points for both spells use 0 RP. In yours, the caster could succeed normally on the Find Enemy and critically on the Extension and have just the 1 RP tied up until the entire spell ends. Or roll the other way and have the Extension RP tied up, but not the original. I am not positive which one I prefer. For simplicity, I would go with my current interpretation.

It would be really weird if when casting Shield 4, the caster would have to roll four times, and might get Shield 3.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Dragon said:

Interesting. I have thought stackable spells were cast with one cast roll. Extension is effectively stacked with the spell with which it is cast. Extension can be cast with any Rune, and hence at the same percentage as the spell with which it is cast. The spell states 'The Extension spell and the spell to be extended must be cast by the same person in the same melee round, and for all game functions are cast simultaneously."

Yes, I think I will also rule it as a single roll, but it's been clarified a couple of times that it's a separate roll so on these forums I tend to stick to the official rules and the Chaosium clarifications rather than my house rules, unless I feel strongly enough to point it out at every opportunity.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Dragon said:

Extension can be cast with any Rune, and hence at the same percentage as the spell with which it is cast.

Just to be pedantic - not necessarily. You might be forced to use a lower rates Rune for the initial spell, but could use a higher rated for the Extension... (although, still  "at the same" has a caveat that is "at least, but could be higher").

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just to be pedantic - not necessarily. You might be forced to use a lower rates Rune for the initial spell, but could use a higher rated for the Extension...

Just to be pedantic, yes necessarily. It CAN be cast with the same rune. And if it can be done with a single roll, choosing to roll again on a higher rune is always a bad idea.

[soltakss]

On 2/4/2022 at 1:31 AM, Scorus said:

How do other GMs deal with Detect Enemies?

If the Adventurers case Detect Enemies and enemies are within spell range then they show up.

Maybe, Illuminated enemies don't show up, depending on how you read Illumination.

Detection Blank stops the spell, of course. Countermagic might, but it is contentious.

For me, that's about it. I don't go into deep navel-gazing over what is an enemy and how the spell knows, or what if an enemy does not harbour ill-intent at the time. You are an enemy or not, you are within the spell's range or not.

On 2/4/2022 at 1:31 AM, Scorus said:

Clandestine enemies seem close to impossible for a party that is hip to it. Ogres, Krarsht, Lunar spies, etc. just don't stand a chance if they mean the individual harm.

Yes, any group with Detect Enemies who cast it when encountering someone is probably going to know who the enemies are.

GMs should find other ways of dealing with it, even if it is an ability of Immune to Detection spells.

[jajagappa]

19 hours ago, Dragon said:

The spell states 'The Extension spell and the spell to be extended must be cast by the same person in the same melee round, and for all game functions are cast simultaneously." RBoM page 49-50. I can read all that as backing up my assertion that it is cast with one roll. Not one roll for Find Enemy and another for Extension.

I would always treat this as one Roll and use one Rune to cast both (and a corollary to that is that the Rune Points to do it must come from the same deity).

 

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I would always treat this as one Roll and use one Rune to cast both (and a corollary to that is that the Rune Points to do it must come from the same deity).

So no casting Extension with spells traded, spells in matrixes, or spells in truestone. I think that's reasonable.

What about spirit cult spells? If a shaman gets a rune spell from a spirit, can they not use their Waha or whatever rune points to extend it? I'm not sure about that. I think I would treat it like associate cult spells, if the spirit cult is closely related to the shaman's tradition that they get RP from.

[jajagappa]

18 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So no casting Extension with spells traded, spells in matrixes, or spells in truestone. I think that's reasonable.

If the spell was from an Associated cult, there might be a case for it, but generally I'd lean to a "no".

20 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

What about spirit cult spells? If a shaman gets a rune spell from a spirit, can they not use their Waha or whatever rune points to extend it?

Again, if it's from a common Tradition, then there's a case for Extending, but these are small cults and when casting their Rune spells, the other deity may simply not have an ability to Extend the other.

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I would always treat this as one Roll and use one Rune to cast both (and a corollary to that is that the Rune Points to do it must come from the same deity).

Same here, and I would probably do the same for a complex Illusion involving multiple Illusion spells, although it could be argued that it will be funny if some parts fail, so that you get a disembodied but Substantial smell moving around, or an Illusory weapon that can’t be moved.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I would always treat this as one Roll and use one Rune to cast both (and a corollary to that is that the Rune Points to do it must come from the same deity).

 

What about from your own deity's spell in a matrix? (Or your own matrix/Truestone?)

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What about from your own deity's spell in a matrix? (Or your own matrix/Truestone?)

Ought to work. Also in reverse, if you place Extension in a matrix.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

17 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What about from your own deity's spell in a matrix? (Or your own matrix/Truestone?)

I think the matrix disassociates the spell from the source, that's why it's a POWx5 roll and not a rune roll. I don't think I would allow a matrix spell to be extended, but the extension can be baked into the matrix.

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the matrix disassociates the spell from the source, that's why it's a POWx5 roll and not a rune roll.

I think it is connected, because it needs to be replenished in the temple, much like Worship.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it is connected, because it needs to be replenished in the temple, much like Worship.

The matrix is taken out of the Charisma limit for the rune point pool, and recovers RP independently from its creator(s). While itmaintains a connection to the deity, it has been severed from the creator.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

The matrix is taken out of the Charisma limit for the rune point pool, and recovers RP independently from its creator(s). While itmaintains a connection to the deity, it has been severed from the creator.

Agree, but the question is what matters - the character or the deity (or potentially both). We can deduce that it’s not merely the character, or you could use Extension from another cult’s RP.

[PhilHibbs]

Way off topic here for the title so I created another thread.