Starting as a Noble/Priest as an Orlanthi Character

[JustAnotherVingan]

RAW seem to suggest that someone who is a child of a noble or priest can start the game as a noble or favoured initiate with land, income etc.

This seems odd to me given that Orlanthi society is less rigid than most. I give them the gear, skills etc for the background but until they earn the position they are just a hanger on, supported by their wealthy parent or relative or perhaps expected to earn their keep. No land of their own and maybe the disposable income of a warrior or scribe.

How do other referees handle this?

[French Desperate WindChild]

From my perspective

When they are at home, or in a temple or court where they are known for their parent status, they can have the benefit of their family rank (occupation, income AND outcome) but older they are, more debtful (scenario  hook) and loyal (passion) they are.

Of course if they want to run their own fate, they have to obtain a job (warrior scribe anything they can propose and be hired)

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

This seems odd to me given that Orlanthi society is less rigid than most. I give them the gear, skills etc for the background but until they earn the position they are just a hanger on, supported by their wealthy parent or relative or perhaps expected to earn their keep. No land of their own and maybe the disposable income of a warrior or scribe.

Despite less rigidity, the reality is that certain families have come to dominate clans or even tribes.  See Jeff's recent FB post re: Erenava Chan here as an example: https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/permalink/2161639994011988/

As with most societies, over time, wealth, power, prestige, and magical energy/temple leadership will tend to become more concentrated within a select group.  Still feasible to replace the leadership, particularly if the clan or tribe suffers disasters, but these noble families will come to be dominant and those PC's who are identified as "noble" or "priest" will come from those families. 

We've seen in previous posts by Jeff that land is effectively owned by the Earth temples, but they have given land to the tribes and clans for use, and the tribal kings or clan chieftains distribute/gift to others to work and maintain.  These lands might not be fully inherited, but odds are each king or chieftain will gift to those they favor.  I expect that most PC children will not yet have lands gifted to them - that's for events such as in the RQ Adventures where they do enough to have one get named Thane of Apple Lane.

These PC's will be at points in their lives where they are expected to prove their value to the family and clan - some may become warriors and then part of the king's bodyguard, some may become stewards of part of the lands their parents manage, some become merchants or sages, some get married into other clans to help consolidate relations between important noble lines...

[JustAnotherVingan]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Despite less rigidity, the reality is that certain families have come to dominate clans or even tribes.  See Jeff's recent FB post re: Erenava Chan here as an example: https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/permalink/2161639994011988/

As with most societies, over time, wealth, power, prestige, and magical energy/temple leadership will tend to become more concentrated within a select group.  Still feasible to replace the leadership, particularly if the clan or tribe suffers disasters, but these noble families will come to be dominant and those PC's who are identified as "noble" or "priest" will come from those families. 

We've seen in previous posts by Jeff that land is effectively owned by the Earth temples, but they have given land to the tribes and clans for use, and the tribal kings or clan chieftains distribute/gift to others to work and maintain.  These lands might not be fully inherited, but odds are each king or chieftain will gift to those they favor.  I expect that most PC children will not yet have lands gifted to them - that's for events such as in the RQ Adventures where they do enough to have one get named Thane of Apple Lane.

These PC's will be at points in their lives where they are expected to prove their value to the family and clan - some may become warriors and then part of the king's bodyguard, some may become stewards of part of the lands their parents manage, some become merchants or sages, some get married into other clans to help consolidate relations between important noble lines...

The way I'd see it is that the PC wouldn't automatically get lands but in a situation where a position is vacant such as Thane of Apple Lane they'd be a natural favourite to get the post, unless someone else performs outstandingly or the PC manages to disgrace themself.

[jajagappa]

Just now, JustAnotherVingan said:

The way I'd see it is that the PC wouldn't automatically get lands but in a situation where a position is vacant such as Thane of Apple Lane they'd be a natural favourite to get the post, unless someone else performs outstandingly or the PC manages to disgrace themself.

Exactly.  And if they don't... and the no-good, lazy scoundrel from the Rival Family gets awarded it instead,... - it's time for those Honor and Loyalty rolls!

[Squaredeal Sten]

Just as important as family contacts and favors, is the improved educational start the nobles' children get: 

Where a herderr gets a shield and a spear to go adventuring with - "cultural weapons" -(RQiG p.69), the noble gets not onl;y the weapons but also bronze armor and two horses (RQiG p.70), and more cash.  Plus training in noble skills like Ride, Insight, Orate, even a little Intrigue,  that the working class kids don't get.  Thus the noble's child gets a better start and a better chance to survive too.  They are better prepared to step into the well paid leadership roles. Even in a meritocracy they would have first shot at moving up.

Yes the farmer or herder can take training in those things, but the noble already has several seasons worth of that basic training.

[Joerg]

IMO/IMG the "inherited wealth" is really delegated household wealth. The young noble or priest offspring gets to administrate one or several of the hides supporting the family, contributing to the family wealth and income while upholding the required personal status and ostentation.

Property comes with obligations, like taxes paid to clan and temples, and solving everyday problems that pile up, like predators endangering herds, herbivores plaguing the fields, diseases of plants or livestock, vermin in the storage, maintenance of the infrastructure... 

One could make this an economic interlude game with a few rolls between the seasons, to take care of the problems, seeing how good the measures take.I have played in two convention heroquest games with that kind of resource management, and then there is of course King of Dragon Pass and Six Ages with its clan activities per season.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 2/5/2022 at 5:17 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Just as important as family contacts and favors, is the improved educational start the nobles' children get: 

Where a herderr gets a shield and a spear to go adventuring with - "cultural weapons" -(RQiG p.69), the noble gets not onl;y the weapons but also bronze armor and two horses (RQiG p.70), and more cash.  Plus training in noble skills like Ride, Insight, Orate, even a little Intrigue,  that the working class kids don't get.  Thus the noble's child gets a better start and a better chance to survive too.  They are better prepared to step into the well paid leadership roles. Even in a meritocracy they would have first shot at moving up.

Yes the farmer or herder can take training in those things, but the noble already has several seasons worth of that basic training.

Absolutly

but do not forget the most important if they stay in their cultural area:

relationship !

kings and other important people know them.. Their families are involved in the political game, some have debt, some have favors… in all cases that’s enough to speak with this adventurer and not the others 

 

ah… entre soi

[David Scott]

On 2/4/2022 at 7:21 PM, JustAnotherVingan said:

RAW seem to suggest that someone who is a child of a noble or priest can start the game as a noble or favoured initiate with land, income etc.

This seems odd to me given that Orlanthi society is less rigid than most. I give them the gear, skills etc for the background but until they earn the position they are just a hanger on, supported by their wealthy parent or relative or perhaps expected to earn their keep. No land of their own and maybe the disposable income of a warrior or scribe.

How do other referees handle this?

I've have this in my game, with a Storm Bull noble. The main issue that arrises is that income is variable. If you don't give them the land then they have no income and will be unable to maintain their Standard of Living in the Sacred time phase. They need 200L which is exactly what 5 hides gives (given a successful income roll). Then they have to pay cult ties (as usual 10%) so they are 20L down which is why they adventure (his land is not from the temple). We left this as is with the 5 hides. The player uses the noble description very strictly "Nobles can be surprisingly accessible, welcoming chances to display their courage, prowess, generosity, and wisdom." As a result is always looking for chaos, talking to all clan folk, and generally acting as an emissary for his father (Clan Storm Bull priest).

As an aside he's a companion of the thane of Apple Lane and unlike the other adventurers, doesn't work for the thane. He has to separately negotiate his cut of any loot with the thane (which usually all goes to the thane for the upkeep of the other adventurers). This also means that noble must improve their Orate or Manage Household to be sure of keeping their income up. 

In short I left it as written, so as not to penalised the player. He acts as is meant too, so it's not an issue. 

[JustAnotherVingan]

I'm a clan chieftain.

My nephew has just come home from the wars.

His father, my brother, died in Starbrow's Rebellion and the lad acquitted himself well at Dangerford, or so I've heard.

I'd like to do something for him but I have my own children to think about, my sister has been nagging me about her brats, and the clan ring have been muttering about how I treat clan lands like they belong to my family.

He will have to wait. In the meantime hes welcome to a seat at my table. Maybe he'll prove useful.

I want getting lands to be notable for a character. 2 of the 3 scenarios in the GM's Screen Pack come with rewards of lands, runelevels of most cults get them too (and qualifying to be a priest is much easier than in earlier editions), and after a war there will be plenty of opportunities, especially for a character with influential connections. I'm not inclined to hand them out as part of the starting package.

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I want getting lands to be notable for a character. 2 of the 3 scenarios in the GM's Screen Pack come with rewards of lands, runelevels of most cults get them too (and qualifying to be a priest is much easier than in earlier editions), and after a war there will be plenty of opportunities, especially for a character with influential connections. I'm not inclined to hand them out as part of the starting package.

so do I, but you can let them with "noble rank". Personaly, I play it like that : they are not "noble" because they succeed and "gain" some land but because they need to be well appreciate by the court. Somewhere, that is harder for Orlanthi: they are not free, not enough responsible, not enough honorable, just children of their parents and they depend on the ring goodwill.

[JustAnotherVingan]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so do I, but you can let them with "noble rank". Personaly, I play it like that : they are not "noble" because they succeed and "gain" some land but because they need to be well appreciate by the court. Somewhere, that is harder for Orlanthi: they are not free, not enough responsible, not enough honorable, just children of their parents and they depend on the ring goodwill.

Orlanthi defnitely have it harder than other characters. If we were playing someone in the Sun Dome Temple or Lunar Empire sure they would have it easier. Then again if the campiagn was starting in such a stratified area  I'd never allow such a disparity between starting characters. They'd all start as peasants. 

[JustAnotherVingan]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so do I, but you can let them with "noble rank". Personaly, I play it like that : they are not "noble" because they succeed and "gain" some land but because they need to be well appreciate by the court. Somewhere, that is harder for Orlanthi: they are not free, not enough responsible, not enough honorable, just children of their parents and they depend on the ring goodwill.

I'd see it as they actually have to earn their status, not just get it because of their birth. The ring goodwill is an actual measure of merit , your whole clan values you, not just the chieftain.

[Shiningbrow]

Personally, I see it as the young noble's first forays into the role of responsibility and leadership. 5 hides isn't a huge amount of land, but also not so big as to cause an issue if everything goes badly. 

So, if they can manage those 5 hides effectively, then they can show the family/clan/tribe that they can handle more responsibility (e.g., be a Thane of a Lane....)

BTW, the 200L generated is only big by comparison to other, less privileged occupations and statuses. Compared with real wealth (temples & rulers), it's not really that much.

 

ETA - that 200L standard of living probably shouldn't only be seen as benefiting the young noble themselves alone, but also as part of the gifts and hospitality that should be expected to be given to others.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I see it as the young noble's first forays into the role of responsibility and leadership. 5 hides isn't a huge amount of land, but also not so big as to cause an issue if everything goes badly. 

You would presumably also have Noble occupation and SoL just from being a youngster in a Noble family, even if you don't run five hides of land yourself?

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 2/8/2022 at 7:34 AM, Akhôrahil said:

You would presumably also have Noble occupation and SoL just from being a youngster in a Noble family, even if you don't run five hides of land yourself?

I definitely agree, at start.  After that, if they go adventuring as a guard for a merchant caravan, their occupation is Warrior, not Noble.  If they want to be Noble they have to achieve a noble position, however vague that is.  Achieving that position could be the character's ambition.  Doesn't have to be though.  The player could have an ambition to become a shaman or a sailor or a merchant, any of whom could occupy a noble economic slot but might not.

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I definitely agree, at start.  After that, if they go adventuring as a guard for a merchant caravan, their occupation is Warrior, not Noble.

I would say yes if they do it full-time, no if it’s within their adventuring time. This goes for all occupations.

[Shiningbrow]

But remember that this is still Standard of Living... Not profit. The money the starting character begins with is the accumulated savings from years of doing their Manage Household (just as the coin other occupations will have saved up). If the adventurer blows all that spare cash on stuff (spells, matrices, etc) before going adventuring, they shouldn't be expecting to get that money back again for quite a while! Certaintly not from the following year's income... A good roll (special) and they will get an extra 18L from (if lucky) only a single hide. The 200L average from the 5 hides needs to cover all household attendants, gifts and celebrations, offerings, maintenance, etc etc. Again, it's not profit to spend wherever you feel like it. It's a nett 0 income (on average).

So, in one way, it's completely irrelevant which occupation you are (after character creation).. Because unless your adventurers bring in some cash, everyone is on a nett 0 (or less) income. (Merchants may be an exception)

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 2/13/2022 at 10:08 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I would say yes if they do it full-time, no if it’s within their adventuring time. This goes for all occupations.

so do I. that is the key point, what do pc between adventures. But of course they would have to explain how they are in a position. If, at the end of an adventure, they are far from home (and unknown by the locals), it is more difficult to be a noble (income at least) except if the pc are great courtiers. So players need some roleplay, strategy and maybe dices to explain they are "still" nobles (still or ... new, after all, if they are skilled enough deceive the locals)

 

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It's a nett 0 income (on average).

a big point too but

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, in one way, it's completely irrelevant which occupation you are

not totally, irrelevant if you focus on money for the next adventure, but noble have access to leaders, can obtain favors, know  where to go (next scenario) so are the leaders of their group  (best reward), etc... Of course only if they acts as nobles are expected to be (a player may want to be a noble refusing to be noble, and a gm may send a noble to bad situation, only to balance with others players, no pain no gain)

When a warrior will be hired (some guilders) to kill a monster because a sorcerer needs its ears for some weird magic, a noble will be send to kill the same monster but to save the clan and to gain maybe more hides or at least some great items

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, in one way, it's completely irrelevant which occupation you are (after character creation).. Because unless your adventurers bring in some cash, everyone is on a nett 0 (or less) income. (Merchants may be an exception)

Yeah, this is an interesting outcome of the rules - apart from better child survival, a higher SoL mostly just means (purely rules-wise) that you will have a more expensive ransom and resurrection cost...