Any Ikadz write up?

[Humakt]

Hello! Looking for some Ikadz info, about the cult, magic, etc. has anyone made a description of it? 
thanks in advance 

[David Scott]

See https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/i/ikadz/

RQG's runes will be Disorder, Darkness, Chaos (from the unpublished prosopaedia)

Lords of Terror (1994) gives rune spells as Pain Blow (use Pain Tooth from RBM) and Command spells for Pain spirits (see Passion spirits RQB).

Loren Miller did a fan version here in 1997: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/GloranthaDigest/vol04/1609.html

 

[Darius West]

Ikadz has some real problems in terms of founding something more than a shrine I'd say.  Not many people will worship the torture god together.  There are probably some state-sponsored torture temples in Afadjann but being a torturer is a pretty niche profession.

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Not many people will worship the torture god together.  There are probably some state-sponsored torture temples in Afadjann but being a torturer is a pretty niche profession.

I would think it's pretty common among all Civil servant workers in every government. 

But seriously, I can see a government supported temple structure based on a prison system in any "civilized" culture.

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I would think it's pretty common among all Civil servant workers in every government. 

But seriously, I can see a government supported temple structure based on a prison system in any "civilized" culture.

TBH the whole temple size mechanics rules are something I have always had some issues with.  They mean that a  niche deity like Ikadz, who is unlikely to have more than 3 followers in any city can never get enough worshippers together for a shrine.  I think more niche deities need to follow something closer to the trickster model, or have a special type of Rune Spell that they use in place of the ordinary rules for regaining their spells.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Darius West

[David Scott]

16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

TBH the whole temple size mechanics rules are something I have always had some issues with.  They mean that a  niche deity like Ikadz, who is unlikely to have more than 3 followers in any city can never get enough worshippers together for a shrine.  I think more niche deities need to follow something closer to the trickster model, or have a special type of Rune Spell that they use in place of the ordinary rules for regaining their spells.

Or be an associate god in the temple of a larger one. For example in Loren Miller's version, you would find Ikadz in some Irripi Ontor temples.

[Godlearner]

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

TBH the whole temple size mechanics rules are something I have always had some issues with.  They mean that a  niche deity like Ikadz, who is unlikely to have more than 3 followers in any city can never get enough worshippers together for a shrine.

Yes, I have thought about this before as well. I think one of the ways that this is offset is to base it on the amount of magic points sacrificed during the previous holiday vs. the number of worshippers. The system I use is based sacrificing personal magic points only and at a rate of 1mp from a Lay Member, 10mp from an Initiate and max POW from any Rune Level. This way a shrine would require about 10 initiates, and a minor temple about 20 initiates, etc.

[Darius West]

16 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Or be an associate god in the temple of a larger one. For example in Loren Miller's version, you would find Ikadz in some Irripi Ontor temples.

A perfectly valid point, and one I considered having written my prev comment.  On the other hand, I hope Ikadz doesn't have any 2pt or 3pt spells on offer, if you see my point...

Edited March 28, 2022 by Darius West

[JRE]

Loren Miller's version tries to solve the problem of the Chaos rune, as that limits its usefulness as a society cult to Lunars and some city states of Fonrit. If there is a non-chaotic version, that would make it interesting in Kralorela,  Safelster or Carmania, as well as possibly in some Janube city state. I think the Chaos rune applies only to some Lunar versions, reinforced by certain chaotic Ikadz cultists that reinforce the stereotype, so it is the one most applicable to Dragon Pass. I would not give Ikadz the truth rune, however, it is all about pain, not truth.

Clearly a marginal cult, and one that requires either a large population base or a strong tradition of corporal punishment. However I can imagine a penal mine or some armies having a shrine and enough excruciators / Pain specialists to keep it active. Corporal punishment in armies was traditionally a job for specialists. Using the associate cult system, it could well be an associate of the local city cult if the city supports corporal punishments. Using modern (XVIIIth century) punishment statistics, a city of over 10.000 people could well need over a dozen professional scourgers. If they have other legal functions, such as the Roman Lictors, bodyguards and executioners of the sentences of Roman magistrates, as well as helping in crowd control, you could have several hundred functionaries, enough for a temple.

Torturers in the Gene Wolfe form could exist in the West, and coexist in Safelster with Ikadz, probably as a remnant of the Empire of Peace, which is where you would expect virtuous torturers (Seekers of Truth and Penitence). Rivalry between the two would be fierce. 

[Darius West]

15 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yes, I have thought about this before as well. I think one of the ways that this is offset is to base it on the amount of magic points sacrificed during the previous holiday vs. the number of worshippers. The system I use is based sacrificing personal magic points only and at a rate of 1mp from a Lay Member, 10mp from an Initiate and max POW from any Rune Level. This way a shrine would require about 10 initiates, and a minor temple about 20 initiates, etc.

I like this idea GL.  It is a great way to handle this confounding rules problem.

On the other hand, by way of speculation, (and in a burst of rando "inspiration" brought on by your comment) perhaps every torture victim becomes an Ikadz lay member for the duration of their stay?

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

<snip> if you see my point...

points... edges... even blunt crushing tools.

And of course magic!

All are equally appropriate to Ikadz!

[Lordabdul]

On 3/28/2022 at 6:51 AM, Darius West said:

TBH the whole temple size mechanics rules are something I have always had some issues with.  They mean that a  niche deity like Ikadz, who is unlikely to have more than 3 followers in any city can never get enough worshippers together for a shrine.  I think more niche deities need to follow something closer to the trickster model, or have a special type of Rune Spell that they use in place of the ordinary rules for regaining their spells.

I do a bit of light rules tweaking by combining something a bit like what @Godlearner says (i.e. have worshippers sacrifice more MP to make up for the lack of attendance... but I think GL's numbers are too extreme personally, I only nudge numbers slightly), then I sprinkle a bit of "foot traffic" (i.e. a few additional worshippers who aren't local and are only passing through). But most importantly I take this as a world-building opportunity. I don't know much about Ikadz (given that I just read about him 5min ago) but in general for these niche Chaos cults I have this or that cult have some presence in one place but not another, a stronghold in this city but absent in other towns, some associated cult in some other city, etc. Basically like gangs and organized crime, where a given group only has some presence in some select locations, and then allies and enemies in others. It's rarely enough for more than a shrine but then again, even a minor temple is a big deal and would only exist in just one or two specific strongholds of that organization IMHO. Satellite gangs would have to use a Site or bless their own ground to do ad-hoc worshipping... actually, "Chaos cult tries to build a new Site or Shrine" is a classic scenario seed.

Edited March 29, 2022 by lordabdul

[Joerg]

With evil cults, I would allow the sacrifice of a sapient victim to make up for quite a number of worshippers to maintain a temple.

In case of Ikadz, ongoing lethal torture.

[soltakss]

For me, Ikadz is also a god of punishment, not just torture. His are the fires that will purge someone of their sins, misdeeds, inadequacies and flaws, refining them, through pain, to be a better version of themselves.

[Godlearner]

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, Ikadz is also a god of punishment, not just torture. His are the fires that will purge someone of their sins, misdeeds, inadequacies and flaws, refining them, through pain, to be a better version of themselves.

Surely, there is a subcult for self-flagellation somewhere as well 😉

[Darius West]

On 3/31/2022 at 1:34 AM, Joerg said:

With evil cults, I would allow the sacrifice of a sapient victim to make up for quite a number of worshippers to maintain a temple.

In case of Ikadz, ongoing lethal torture.

I like this idea, but presently, sacrifice only provides a small bonus to one's Ritual skill in the RQG rules.  We badly need better rules to cover this issue.