Possessed and control <species> spells

[Godlearner]

If a spirit is possessing an animal or person has a control, command or a dominate <species> spell cast on them, will it work?

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

If a spirit is possessing an animal or person has a control, command or a dominate <species> spell cast on them, will it work?

Yes as it's corporeal, but you would still need to overcome the possessing spirit's POW as usual. See Active Possession, RQB page 165-166. However the spirit could relinquish possession and attack the caster in spirit combat or even flee. It may even have other spirit powers.

[Godlearner]

21 minutes ago, David Scott said:

but you would still need to overcome the possessing spirit's POW as usual.

Sure, but would that even work? Let's say you have a spirit in a dog and a sorcerer casts a Dominate Dog and overcomes the spirit's power. is the spirit cast out? Is the dog controlled and stull possessed, or does the spell fail because it's the wrong species?

[David Scott]

37 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Sure, but would that even work?

It would work within the limit of the rules in my games, whether you want it to work in your games is entirely up to you.

37 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Let's say you have a spirit in a dog and a sorcerer casts a Dominate Dog and overcomes the spirit's power. is the spirit cast out?

The spell doesn't cast out spirits, it controls dogs.

37 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Is the dog controlled and still possessed

Yes, if its POW is overcome, hence my suggestion the spirit may try to escape first.

37 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

, or does the spell fail because it's the wrong species?

The dog is still a dog, it just has a different spirit. It has to act like a dog as it's dog shaped. If the spirit doesn't like its body being controlled, it will need to discorporate and escape.

 

[g33k]

I can also imagine a shaman going, "You want the dog?  Fine... have the dog!" <binds spirit to dog, can no longer discorporate (or anything else) without permission>

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Sure, but would that even work? Let's say you have a spirit in a dog and a sorcerer casts a Dominate Dog and overcomes the spirit's power. is the spirit cast out? Is the dog controlled and stull possessed, or does the spell fail because it's the wrong species?

The dog has two spirits in it... its own, and the new one. Is the new one covert or overt? Dominant or passive?

Actually,  that's a good question  - what happens to the original spirit when one binds a spirit to it?

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Actually,  that's a good question  - what happens to the original spirit when one binds a spirit to it?

The original spirit is still there, but cannot do anything. If magically viewed, The entrapped soul is visible as an ugly smudge within the aura of the possessor. or the aura of a being suffering covert possession appears cloudy where the two spirits overlap. See Possession, page 370. There's loads of info out there about real world and fictional possession, I'd start with Possession in Man, Myth and Magic Volume 15 (if you join for free, you can borrow the book for an hour, these volumes alone make it worth it).

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Sure, but would that even work? Let's say you have a spirit in a dog and a sorcerer casts a Dominate Dog and overcomes the spirit's power. is the spirit cast out? Is the dog controlled and stull possessed, or does the spell fail because it's the wrong species?

IMO the spell controls the flesh of the dog.  This doesn't throw out the spirit, but if the spell overcame the spirit's POW then the spell controls the dog, not the spirit.  In fact the spirit likely becomes passive, and the dog may even be able to reassert control of its body.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

IMO the spell controls the flesh of the dog.

I would say the spell controls the mind.

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I would say the spell controls the mind.

Same for me

i would allow a dominate human spell to obtain answers. Answers don’t come from flesh

from my perspective :

spell > spirit > body

so if a (non dog) spirit controls a dog body, a sorceror must cast a dominate (non dog) spirit to control the dog

The dominate dog would affect the original dog spirit who is not controlling any more the dog body. Obtaining answer from the dog spirit , yes. Obtaining acts, no. But encouraging the dog spirit to fight again against the possession, yes

 

 

 

[JRE]

I am on the Dominate / Control works side. The spirit reaction will depend on its instructions (if any) and character, as faced with a magician able to overcome it, it may well be safer to stay inside the dog than becoming a target for control or dominate.

If the possession is overt, then any answer to questions will be the spirit's, who is not compelled, so it may say whatever it wishes. In a covert case the replies will be the same as if it was not possesed. 

To do otherwise would make, in my opinion, shamanic cultures too powerful. Unleash a bunch of ghosts and you can annihilate the civilians in a settlement. This way at least the chieftain can try to keep them quiescent long enough to immobilize them while they look for a longer term solution, or just wait till they recover MP and use spirit block to help them kick the possessor out. 

[soltakss]

I would make it an opposed roll of some kind, to see whether the Control/Dominate/Command or possessing spirit takes precedence.

[Darius West]

On 4/17/2022 at 10:58 PM, Godlearner said:

I would say the spell controls the mind.

That doesn't work imo.  Consider, a demoralize spell works regardless of species, because it is spirit magic and works against spirit.  Why then does a Dominate spell only work against a specific species if everyone's spirit is essentially the same?  It must be tied to the actual flesh, and that fits better with the logic of the more materialistic ideas of sorcery imo.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

23 minutes ago, Darius West said:

That doesn't work imo.  Consider, a demoralize spell works regardless of species, because it is spirit magic and works against spirit.  Why then does a Dominate spell only work against a specific species if everyone's spirit is essentially the same?  It must be tied to the actual flesh, and that fits better with the logic of the more materialistic ideas of sorcery imo.

but in that case...

what can you obtain with dominate human ?

you move the body but cannot obtain :

- any answer (a body can make sound, not answer)

- order anything to do (you don't give the target "any autonomy" to do things)

or I miss something ?

same if you dominate a human possessed by another human spirit   ? who are you dominating ?

 

[Darius West]

7 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but in that case...

what can you obtain with dominate human ?

you move the body but cannot obtain :

- any answer (a body can make sound, not answer)

- order anything to do (you don't give the target "any autonomy" to do things)

or I miss something ?

same if you dominate a human possessed by another human spirit   ? who are you dominating ?

 

While I said the spell controls the flesh, how is that possible?  I think, more specifically that it controls the nervous system, and to a large degree, the brain as the seat of that nervous system.  This is not the same as controlling the spirit, which is CHA and POW but more like controlling the INT, while not specifically saying so.

I think the implication is that the dominated individual has to follow the Sorcerer's direct and specific orders unless they go against one of their passions, in which case they can resist. 

The fact is that the write up for dominate species on 394-95 is a bit sparse and non-specific imo.  IDK if these spells received a treatment in the Red Book of Magic, but if they did, I would love to know what it says, as I don't own that book yet.

I think the important thing about dominate is that it is a cruel spell.  You can't do anything but what you are told to do.  Worse still, the spell lasts for the length of the duration, even if the sorcerer dies.  Your body is likely to breathe, fall asleep, urinate, defacate etc without "permission", but according to natural rhythms, not the victim's control, which can be humiliating.  I assume that food and drink placed in the mouth can be consumed, but more as an animal reaction than with any conscious control.  The sorcerer can order the victim to perform these personal tasks, but must do so directly, and cannot use hand-wavium to just say it happens, as potentially a command like "do as you please" can utterly break the domination.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

because it is spirit magic and works against spirit. 

Disagree. Demoralize works on the mind even though it needs to overcome the POW. That is why it is species agnostic. There are spells that work on certain spirits and not others like Summon spirit of Disease and Healing, Command and Create Ghost. Previous versions had Dominate POW or INT spirits, and even the current RQG Bestiary lists different spirit types breaking them down to Plant, Animal (even breaking them down to species), etc. 

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I think the important thing about dominate is that it is a cruel spell.  You can't do anything but what you are told to do.  Worse still, the spell lasts for the length of the duration, even if the sorcerer dies.  Your body is likely to breathe, fall asleep, urinate, defacate etc without "permission", but according to natural rhythms, not the victim's control, which can be humiliating.  I assume that food and drink placed in the mouth can be consumed, but more as an animal reaction than with any conscious control.  The sorcerer can order the victim to perform these personal tasks, but must do so directly, and cannot use hand-wavium to just say it happens, as potentially a command like "do as you please" can utterly break the domination.

It is cruel as it subsumes the Will of the target, but the actual affects are in the realm of the GM. I would say "permission" is granted by default, unless something is specifically forbidden. Other game systems for example treat distasteful actions as another reason for a battle of wills which may give the subject a change to shake off the effect, even for a while.

This topic should have its own thread IMO.

[Darius West]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:17 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

you move the body but cannot obtain :

- any answer (a body can make sound, not answer)

- order anything to do (you don't give the target "any autonomy" to do things)

or I miss something ?

same if you dominate a human possessed by another human spirit   ? who are you dominating ?

 

The brain is part of the body.  So is the nervous system.  This is the materialist paradigm of sorcery.  Control the body, control the mind, because the mind is part of the body. Spirit is a delusion to sorcerers, as it is just a shell of residual POW that exists after someone dies.  A ghost is not a person to sorcerers, it is just an echo on the mythic energy background.  If we started worrying they were all somehow "people", not just spirit trash, then what would we tap?  Clearly all good Malkioni's souls go straight to Solace, and these "spirits" they leave behind are simply a product of their shedding of their sins.😉

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

The brain is part of the body.  So is the nervous system.  This is the materialist paradigm of sorcery.  Control the body, control the mind, because the mind is part of the body. Spirit is a delusion to sorcerers, as it is just a shell of residual POW that exists after someone dies.  A ghost is not a person to sorcerers, it is just an echo on the mythic energy background.  If we started worrying they were all somehow "people", not just spirit trash, then what would we tap?  Clearly all good Malkioni's souls go straight to Solace, and these "spirits" they leave behind are simply a product of their shedding of their sins.😉

Even if what you say is true, and I have serious doubts about a lot of what you said there, this does not cover the Theist or Animist's point of views. The body is the body, a meat suit if you will, while the spirit is the mind and is eternal. In this case controlling the body restricts movement and actions, but does not affect the mind. Then you overcome the spirit in POW vs POW roll you do not necessarily subjugate the mind, but rather remove its control of the body.

[Darius West]

22 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Even if what you say is true, and I have serious doubts about a lot of what you said there, this does not cover the Theist or Animist's point of views. The body is the body, a meat suit if you will, while the spirit is the mind and is eternal. In this case controlling the body restricts movement and actions, but does not affect the mind. Then you overcome the spirit in POW vs POW roll you do not necessarily subjugate the mind, but rather remove its control of the body.

That is something of an artefact of the system though.  Yes we roll POW vs POW, but it might also be called WILL vs WILL or Sorcery vs Target's Permanent Magic Rune Concentration or any number of other things.  Mind and body are one in a materialist paradigm.

[Godlearner]

37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Mind and body are one in a materialist paradigm.

That is like saying that material and spirit world are one which is not the case. They are interdependent but are clearly separate. 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

That is like saying that material and spirit world are one which is not the case.

But materialism doesn't acknowledge the existence of "spirit" - it's literally part of the definition.

Of course, that has nothing to do with Glorantha.

[Godlearner]

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Of course, that has nothing to do with Glorantha.

Sure, so to get back to the topic at hand a possessed Dog would not be subject to a Control Dog spell, even if its POW is overcomed. 

[Darius West]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:57 PM, Godlearner said:

That is like saying that material and spirit world are one which is not the case. They are interdependent but are clearly separate. 

It is perfectly possible to refuse to recognize spirits as being anything other than magical detritus.  

[Godlearner]

39 minutes ago, Darius West said:

It is perfectly possible to refuse to recognize spirits as being anything other than magical detritus.  

Sure, but it would have no effect on the mechanic of control spells.