"Parry" HR ... thoughts?

[g33k]

Hey folks, considering some HR's on magic (part ii).

As "Parry" is clearly a parallel spell to Bladesharp & Bludgeon (but strictly inferior as it only matches their %skill bonus (but has no +N damage-bonus!)) I thought I'd give it an added benefit of an effective +1 on the SIZ+STR total for testing Knockback on the Resistance Table.

Obviously, YGMV & MGF and my-table / my-game &c.  Also, it's clearly nothing game-breaking, nor does it seem like it'd conflict with setting/myth.

It just takes a frankly-subpar spell, and makes it a bit more versatile & therefore more attractive.

ALTERNATIVELY -- because "Knockback" is so much an edge-case (unless you're big & strong and already use it a lot against normals (e.g. trolls, minotaurs, etc)) I might skip the "Knockback" and make each point of Parry magic worth +10% to Shield skill, instead of the normal +5%.

Thoughts?

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

I thought I'd give it an added benefit of an effective +1 on the SIZ+STR total for testing Knockback on the Resistance Table.

seems to me "too much" (I may be wrong, just my first feeling) maybe +0.5 / spell or thing like that. human should have a knock back even with parry 10 against minotaur

again just a feeling

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Hey folks, considering some HR's on magic (part ii).

As "Parry" is clearly a parallel spell to Bladesharp & Bludgeon (but strictly inferior as it only matches their %skill bonus (but has no +N damage-bonus!))

(...)

ALTERNATIVELY -- because "Knockback" is so much an edge-case (unless you're big & strong and already use it a lot against normals (e.g. trolls, minotaurs, etc)) I might skip the "Knockback" and make each point of Parry magic worth +10% to Shield skill, instead of the normal +5%.

no +10 for me but... i agree with you : something to do with the dammage. I will follow the canon rules, but I would not see any issue if the parry spell gives +1 AP when (and only when) the parry is successful.

if you succeed your parry (with your spell bonus), then yes the shield blocks more

but if you failed your parry (failure, or crit vs normal,etc...), then if you have to use shield stats for any reason, don't add the parry spell bonus.

 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

no +10 for me but... i agree with you : something to do with the dammage. I will follow the canon rules, but I would not see any issue if the parry spell gives +1 AP when (and only when) the parry is successful.

I'd make the +1 unconditional.

[g33k]

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

seems to me "too much" (I may be wrong, just my first feeling) maybe +0.5 / spell or thing like that. human should have a knock back even with parry 10 against minotaur

again just a feeling

Spirit-Magic 10 is... kind of a big deal, actually!  Mechanically (e.g. for Countermagic, etc) Rune spells are considered twice as potent; what if you called it a 5-Rune-Point spell?  Compare Bladesharp-10:  Skill +50%, damage +10

A +1 on the STR+SIZ total is only a 5% increment on the Resistance-Table; using this HR with a Parry-10 spell, +50% Knockback is merely identical to Bladesharp-10's +50% Attack...

Last but not least:  that +10 (+50%) still leaves the the average human  14 points (70%)  behind the average minotaur!

Edited April 21, 2022 by g33k

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Spirit-Magic 10 is... kind of a big deal, actually!  Mechanically (e.g. for Countermagic, etc) Rune spells are considered twice as potent; what if you called it a 5-Rune-Point spell?  Compare Bladesharp-10:  Skill +50%, damage +10
 

well if a "dps" is able to have a "bladesharp 10", I m pretty sure a "tank" is able to have a "parry 10". But I agree with you  xxx-10 is a kind of big deal !

but I saw so many times bladesharp 10 that I have changed my referential 😛

 

 

2 hours ago, g33k said:

A +1 on the STR+SIZ total is only a 5% increment on the Resistance-Table; using this HR with a Parry-10 spell, +50% Knockback is merely identical to Bladesharp-10's +50% Attack...

Last but not least:  that +10 (+50%) still leaves the the average human  14 points (70%)  behind the average minotaur!

you're just demonstrating that feeling may give wrong analysis sometimes !

so you convince me for the 1/1 ratio  (I m pretty sure that you would not do anything without my agreement, would you ? 😛 )

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:49 AM, g33k said:

Hey folks, considering some HR's on magic (part ii).

As "Parry" is clearly a parallel spell to Bladesharp & Bludgeon (but strictly inferior as it only matches their %skill bonus (but has no +N damage-bonus!)) I thought I'd give it an added benefit of an effective +1 on the SIZ+STR total for testing Knockback on the Resistance Table.

I give +1 to weapon HP per point, to make it symmetrical with Bladesharp. This way, Bladesharp 10 vs Parry 10 is a wash, which I like.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I give +1 to weapon HP per point, to make it symmetrical with Bladesharp. This way, Bladesharp 10 vs Parry 10 is a wash, which I like.

I considered that, but honestly it doesn't feel like "a wash" to me:  the HPs in the shield only count when the parry succeeds.  It blocks the damage (which is a "wash," but only on those occasions) & keeps the shield intact.

As von Clausewitz teaches, though, defense doesn't win the fight.  I find Parry still strictly-inferior (to Bladesharp & Bludgeon), in that -- while it keeps you from falling -- it doesn't advance the fight towards your victory... it merely delays your defeat!

Another idea I didn't mention before:  a "shield" is just an uber-specialized parrying weapon -- shield-bash is a thing!  So one could add +1 to the bashing damage.

Both of those seem to me to be insufficient to really "match" the added utility of +damage on successful hits of a primary attacking weapon.  THAT advances a fight towards victory!


Hmm...  Maybe "all of this" :

• +HP's the shield can absorb
• +1 bashing damage
• +1 SIZ+STR on Knockback checks

Now that's beginning to look like a comparable degree of utility; and all thematic toward it being a "better shield," magically-enhanced for solidity and for momentum-y things...

Edited April 21, 2022 by g33k

[Stephen L]

9 hours ago, g33k said:

As von Clausewitz teaches, though, defense doesn't win the fight.  I find Parry still strictly-inferior (to Bladesharp & Bludgeon), in that -- while it keeps you from falling -- it doesn't advance the fight towards your victory... it merely delays your defeat!

I disagree.  I can't remember who (might be Wellington) said something along the lines of the "battle is one by he who makes fewest mistakes", but, in general in RQ, a successful parry blocks a huge amount of damage, and it's missing the parry that often ends the combat...

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

Hmm...  Maybe "all of this" :

• +HP's the shield can absorb
• +1 bashing damage
• +1 SIZ+STR on Knockback checks

too much for me : now you have a spell giving  damage like bladesharp AND more protection

back to the parry(10) versus bladesharp(10).

How many shield-bearer wil obtain a matrix or learn parry 10 if it add dmg ?

why even use another melee weapon if you can do D6 + 10 +bonus dmg ? focus on shield stat and, why not, with both hands

 

for me, if you want more damage on your shield, use a bladesharp-like (+1dmg +5% att) spell not a parry one, or go to heroquest and find captain america !

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Mugen]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

Hmm...  Maybe "all of this" :

• +HP's the shield can absorb
• +1 bashing damage
• +1 SIZ+STR on Knockback checks

The "+X to absorption" and "+X to Knockback" parts sound a lot like "reduce damage by X after a succesful parry" to me.

I'm against adding damage to the parrying weapon, it's just out of context for a defensive counterpart to Bladesharp.

[Mugen]

32 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

I disagree.  I can't remember who (might be Wellington) said something along the lines of the "battle is one by he who makes fewest mistakes", but, in general in RQ, a successful parry blocks a huge amount of damage, and it's missing the parry that often ends the combat...

Also, parry chances above 100% reduce your attacker's attack chances in first place, and a failed attack is the best outcome possible for a defender.

Plus, it counters Bladesharp' ability to increase attack chances over 100%.

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, Stephen L said:

I disagree.  I can't remember who (might be Wellington) said something along the lines of the "battle is one by he who makes fewest mistakes", but, in general in RQ, a successful parry blocks a huge amount of damage, and it's missing the parry that often ends the combat...

In RQ, defence is super important. This is why you load up on armor, and why Shield is such a fantastic spell. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

I would add that I would totally allow casting Parry on any weapon. There’s no obvious reason why it’s shields only by RAW.

[JustAnotherVingan]

28 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would add that I would totally allow casting Parry on any weapon. There’s no obvious reason why it’s shields only by RAW.

If anything it seems a bit odd that Humakt gives a spell that doesn't work on swords. The only doubt I'd have is should you be able to have parry and bladesharp active on 1 weapon at the same time.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would not use the parry (shield) spell to add parry to a sword but why not having another spell improving a sword parry, a very exotic one, some unknown hero cult or few shamans would know / teach it .

However, a parry is a parry, an attack is an attack. For the same reason than a magical damage (bladesharp) is not a fire damage (fireblade) I would not consider them compatible

but you may find another spell then, improving both attack and parry (+5/spell) = [weapon skill] but without any damage bonus.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

If anything it seems a bit odd that Humakt gives a spell that doesn't work on swords. The only doubt I'd have is should you be able to have parry and bladesharp active on 1 weapon at the same time.

Although by my reading, you can have that already - just use a bladed or spiked shield from W&E, it should be able to receive both Parry and Bladesharp simultaneously.

[soltakss]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:49 AM, g33k said:

As "Parry" is clearly a parallel spell to Bladesharp & Bludgeon (but strictly inferior as it only matches their %skill bonus (but has no +N damage-bonus!)) I thought I'd give it an added benefit of an effective +1 on the SIZ+STR total for testing Knockback on the Resistance Table.

It used to give +1AP/point to the shield, so that might be worth trying.