Pike & Phalanx formations

[Ironwall]

13 hours ago, JRE said:

except trolkin cannot grow up.

Peter Pan is a trollkin confirmed

 

[Ironwall]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Secondly,  the priest can be standing 180m away, so it won't actually be clear what they're doing. All the phalanx might see is someone casting a spell.

 is that wind lord casting Thunderbolt or Summon large air elemental. Should our own magicians be casting dismiss large elemental ( having an Orlanthi cousin can come in handy) or focus on magical shielding to protect from divine lightning. The ability to identify the specific spell casting practices for other cults and spells is probably a rather important skills on the battlefield, although it is made easier for the cults with the spirit spell Farsee. 

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, Ironwall said:

 is that wind lord casting Thunderbolt or Summon large air elemental. Should our own magicians be casting dismiss large elemental ( having an Orlanthi cousin can come in handy) or focus on magical shielding to protect from divine lightning. The ability to identify the specific spell casting practices for other cults and spells is probably a rather important skills on the battlefield, although it is made easier for the cults with the spirit spell Farsee. 

I think we should move threads... this is a really good point about battlefield tactics and all, that will veer away from the OP.

[French Desperate WindChild]

For me it is more a question of experience (so psychology and tactics)

you are a poor young militia just hired ?

you will panic, do anything, or be surprised and waste time before doing a smart action. In all cases you are a loser or a hero

 

you are an experimented phalanx, with a great history of victories and defeats ?

you are trained to face this kind of thing. The first line knows to not move and to trust the other lines

you are well organized too, you have people in your rank able to dismiss/command/counter attack 

 

it is easy to provide a matrix (several ?) with all the spells needed (all elementals commands) or some elementals of your own cult ready to fight (conditional trigger, wyter, …)

at least if I were a war leader (battle lore > 50%) of course I would not let such threat without correct answer. Spend your money for weapons and armors but nothing against magical elemental (or any magical tactic) is ridiculous if you have the ambition to lead an organized unity

Edited April 30, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[David Scott]

21 hours ago, davecake said:

The Yelmalio cult ‘will not teach the sword for any price’, though do not technically forbid it. 

Upcoming Cults of Glorantha clarifies this further by saying: Instructions in sword technique will not be given for any price, but the cult does not prohibit lay members from learning Sword elsewhere (they do not wish to encourage training in the weapon which slew their god’s father). Likewise, Club or Mace is completely discouraged, due to the long-standing antipathy toward the Dark.

So lay members may use swords, but that's it.

[icebrand]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Firstly,  I don't think all elementals are as obviously visible as you suggest.

they are, each has its own distinctive appeareance. Both RQ2 and RQ bestiary describe them.

"An earth elemental moves directly through the earth, leaving a trail of overturned and ground dirt behind it. It cannot leave the soil and looks like a whirlpool or pulse in the earth itself."

 

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Secondly,  the priest can be standing 180m away, so it won't actually be clear what they're doing. All the phalanx might see is someone casting a spell.

Command cult spirit is very bare bones and doesnt explain how it actually works, does it mindlink you? because otherwise how do you control an elemental you can't see?. But ok, you summon the gnome and say "attack those guys" and the gnome goes.

 

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Earth elementals can travel deeper underground and come up underneath, completely undetected.

Earth elementals sink if unattended (uncontrolled). It moves the earth as it travels, and has no stealth ability whatsoever. Even if deep enough to be hidden from sight, you would surely hear something before?

 

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I wouldn't use the term "freely", but it will depend on how tight the formation is (in theory,  the shields should be covering their companion, so that's not much freedom move about). Also, their reach will be a factor,  as well as getting past those in front.

Ok, without breaking the phallanx we all stomp the ground. Base kick + Modifier + High Ground + "ITS ALL OVER GIVE ME A TO HIT BONUS I LITERALLY CANT MISS" (and here i scream like a maniac and blame you for making me play a yelmalion and break down in tears and throw the pizza box at you. SCREW THIS GOD)

 

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If the elemental is at ground level.

Giving the whole... 3? guys at least high ground modifier XD

 

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The summoner probably won't be involved in melee anyway..

Ok, if the enemy melee combatants magical support is 175m away from his mates, then that side SHOULD be losing no matter the game system? Like cool, you used 2 spells and want to win a battle with it? Like hell thats happening unless this is DND and the spells are 7-9th level (unless ofc the other side is a bunch of complete mooks)

 

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Surprise is +3... after the initial attack. So,  there's the first round gone.

The enemy can see and hear the initial attack (unless you have cast silence and invisibility on it, invisibility isnt a thing anymore is it?). Elementals always go last to give time to react because otherwise they are unfun and unfair to play against. Same as spirits, who need a whole round visibilizing before attacking.

The elemental has no stealth skills whatsoever, no intelligence whatsoever, and your caster is 180m away, so they cant really micromanage the gnome.

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Dropping the pike +5 to base SR, then add SR to the attack. although,  in tight formation,  I'd add more.

Dropping a weapon and unsheathing a new one is just +5 SR, not +10. By doing that you also break formation, now you have some guys with 1h weapon+shield, who can kill the gnome and quikcly fall to 2nd line, restoring the formation. Keep in mind that if a gnome is attacking them, then the enemy melee fighters cant attack (because theres a gnome instead, and as discussed previously the caster is 180m away and cant micro it, remember the elemental isnt intelligent and you are SO far away.

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And then remember that the elemental is engulfing your companions,  not standing off to the side waiting to be hit. So, combined with the formation reducing swing room (almost yo zero, thrust only) and trying not to hit your companions,  I think a reduction in attack % is warranted.

Well, i would give an attack bonus, because you have high ground, and something engulfing you is something you cant miss your swing at. Also phallanx doesnt have any chance to hit companions, and not only front like can attack, but backline and 3rd line too. 

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm not trying yo suggest that using elementals against a formation is the ultimate solution.  I'm merely trying to show that they can be used effectively against them. And that they can be worth the RP expenditure.

Im not trying to suggest that elementals are useless, but a formation should have some defense or they wouldnt be a thing. Also, in your example you have a guy with 5 RP to burn + a frontline capable of engaging the phallanx vs some guys that sit there doing nothing, have no magic support, and get ambushed and wiped out. 

Yeah, my yelmalions drop rocks over your orlanthi while they cross the canyon and kill you all! look, i didnt even use RP!!! wouldnt you let the orlanthi at least a check to see if they can react?

Usually ambushes require set up and skills. You just let the caster have the setup while the enemy does nothing, and then ignore the skills (both the gnome inexistent ones and the phallanx perception) and auto kill several characters without any possible counter.

Our MGF is different, your campaign sounds like game of thrones like, and theres nothing wrong with that, i just dont like it. I place the "gaming" part very highly and stuff needs to be fair or at least counterable to be fun for us.
 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

Im not trying to suggest that elementals are useless, but a formation should have some defense or they wouldnt be a thing.

I disagree with a few of your points, but I'll really just address this.

Two things - firstly is that this phalanx formation thing is brought over from real world warfare, which didn't have magic. So, it shouldn't really be assumed to work the same.

Secondly, as you've hinted at, the use of elementals (and, indeed, most Rune Magic) is going to be a major thing, but not a huge thing. The PCs have quite a few points to throw about, as do the other important NPCs. But typical combatants will only have a couple, and a large percentage will have none (being Lay Members). I'd even suggest that the use of elementals is fairly rare in most (mass) combat situations. And thus, the above point is addressed - why phalanxes can still work in a magical world - usually!

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

Even if deep enough to be hidden from sight, you would surely hear something before?

Over the din of a phalanx of marching troops, and the whooping and roar of Orlanthi (or other) combatants - I doubt it!

 

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

Ok, if the enemy melee combatants magical support is 175m away from his mates, then that side SHOULD be losing no matter the game system? Like cool, you used 2 spells and want to win a battle with it? Like hell thats happening unless this is DND and the spells are 7-9th level (unless ofc the other side is a bunch of complete mooks)

Firstly, the initial casting can be done from 180m away... that doesn't mean they'll stay that far back. they are allowed to move, you know. Besides which, even though it might seem to go against what I just wrote above, there is a LOT of magic in Glorantha, so the idea of "magical support" is a very different to most other games.

Secondly, no, I doubt that 2 spells are going to win a battle... unless there's a very potent sorcerer out there!

 

Yelmookians.... I'll take it! 😁

[Akhôrahil]

By the way, Create Fissure is an absolute beast of a spell against tight formations.

(And a superb spell in general, we have found out.)

Edited May 5, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[JRE]

Pike phalanxes are quite difficult to set up in the real world, as they require much more training and skill than either a hoplite block or a shield wall. in a combined  arms army it has been a recipe for success in field battles, and it only fails when the pikemen are not good enough or when they are not supported with cavalry and projectiles, though there are plentiful battles when they still managed to turn the battle.

Magic will change things, but I like to compare magic to some technological weapons in terms of effect in battlefield formation, as we do not really know how a thunderbolt, or an elemental, or a hell hound doom charge really work, but I can extrapolate. A thunderbolt should not be much more than one 3 pound cannon shot, for instance. Depending on how you use an elemental, it could alternate between grapeshot/organ guns (engulfing an area before destroyed/dismissed) and an obstacle like hidden ditches and traps/mines. I ignore the possibility of Control and sending it back to the enemy, as the troopers will just destroy it just to be on the safe side. It will be difficult to communicate that the elemental is now in your side. A hell hound doom charge may better resemble a rolling 12 pounder battery salvo, which may kill several files, and plays havoc in deep formations.

So I would expect Glorantha soldiers to use more modern tactics than their bronze age counterparts, as they face more complex battlefield threats, but many of them can really be assimilated to the different flavors of artillery / long range menaces, from infantry guns to heavy mortars, with some classic tricks unusual in more modern times, like elephants, scythed chariots or flaming pigs. I would assume that most spirit magic balances out, as it is at an individual level, but will benefit those with more experience and cult support. I class it as part of the "equipment".Better armor, better weapons, better magic. 

A good phalanx is not an unwieldy brick like the undrilled hoplites. They are able to open corridors in seconds to let allies, but also enemy scythed chariots or elephants (dinosaur analogues?), go through, to be destroyed from the side deeper in the formation. I would expect also they can switch to shallower and more open formations fast, when subjected to artillery/heavy magic, as well as adopting extremely deep advance columns to close very fast with the enemy, and possibly charge trotting like the Swiss, rather than marching like the Macedonians, just to close the distance faster with the artillery / long distance attacks. 

The key part is whether they are familiar with the tactics in use, so they will have a countermeasure, and what combined arms are available. Pikes and cavalry work very well together, but it is not useful if you do not have any cavalry. No historical army consisted of only one type of troop (fantasy ones, however...), except some hunter-gatherer bands that can barely be considered as armies. Even apparently simple armies, such as steppe nomads, usually had 3-4 different kinds of riders, and I expect they exist also in Pent or Prax, from young riders looking for their first kill (a requirement for marriage among some Sarmatian tribes, and girls could take part too) acting as scouts / skirmishers, usually eager to fight but the first to run, to the bulk of horse archers that will avoid getting too close, but skilled with their bows and in keeping their distance, then better equipped veterans (in Glorantha including magic) that will engage in melee if the circumstances are right but their main weapon is still the bow, to well equipped noble/religious retinues that may use lances and that expect to turn the battle by charging and breaking the enemy at the right time.

In their land the Sun domers have to rely on their pikes, but also auxiliary spearmen and young skirmishers, and outside Prax specialist horse archers as well. When hiring out they will check who they are hiring with and if they have a right troop balance for them, as they only hire the Templars, so they will need some support. That is also in my opinion a differentiating factor, as the Templars are all initiates or above, which is more than the clan militias and warbands they usually fight against, where there is a core of initiates and a few rune levels, but most combatants are not initiates of a fighting deity. 

I would remember that until faced with overwhelming firepower, pikes did not only dominate ancient battlefields, they were the key component in European armies from the XVth to the XVIIth centuries, when battle conditions, in my opinion, resemble more a Gloranthan battle. 

[davecake]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:49 PM, Shiningbrow said:

If a large elemental, such as a dehori, lune or urzani, can be dropped into a tight formation, then they can affect up to 10 troops at a time

Then it can be attacked by more than 10 troops, maybe 15. Let’s say 10 of them hit. Even with a shortsword, that will be 10x (1D6+1 +1D4) (assuming damage bonus for elite troops), doing an average 70 points of damage. Which is more than double the hit points of the elemental, which has an average of 28.5 hit points, and a maximum of 36. 
Elementals are really super fragile. Unless you spent more magic, and time, to buff them of course. A Protection 6 helps a lot. But then you aren’t summoning on top of troops either. And they are still kind of fragile. 

 

On 4/29/2022 at 8:49 PM, Shiningbrow said:

all while the elemental can move freely between the troops, burning, terrifying and freezing away...

Fearshock and Madness are effective, as they take effect on the SR they contact the troops. But freezing, and Lunes magic point drain, are very minor, of minimal use in that sort of fight (though potentially nastier if used more tactically). The burning only takes effect at the end of a round - by which point the elemental may well be dead. 
Earth elementals can make pits, which have tactical value beyond the attack … but then, if they don’t do it as a direct attack they can do it a lot, so it may be best to keep them for that. Plus their value to attacks fortifications etc. 
And air elementals are the worst, because their attacks don’t scale… it has to divide its STR between its targets. So barely useful to direct attack multiple troops - but they do let you fly your own elite troops around, which is potentially very useful. 

Yes, elementals used this way are effective. Direct attacks by Lunes or shades will likely disrupt a formation quite badly. But they aren’t super powerful, turn the tide of battles, magic either. They are a potentially useful attack, but often those resources are better used differently. 

Though bigger spirits can be battle determining. She That Strikes From Afar, for example, can cast a lot of Madness spells (using the magic points of the many magicians linked to her), is worth heavily buffing with defensive magic (enough to mostly ignore arrows) , and also pretty much hits anyone that physically engages her, typically a 12 meters from, with Madness. But She (with her magical backup) has a WBRM counter of her own, so off course she is. 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by davecake