Pike & Phalanx formations

[davecake]

On 4/17/2022 at 5:39 PM, Darius West said:

There is a reason that most ancient armies fielded massed spears and heavy armor.  They work so much better than the lighter shorter gear.

Part of the reason why the use of light weapons is often queried is because historical armies tended to feature a mixture of spears and light weapons - there appears to be no reason in the rules why your soldier would carry a mixture of a spear and a short blade (such as a xiphos or gladius), despite that being the standard for many ancient armies, including the most extraordinarily successful ones. So the historical argument tends to work against lighter shorter gear always being better. 

I’m tempted to make some sort of rule specifically to cover those cases. A specific rule that covers the cases of hoplites and legions might be that using a weapon of SR 1 or 2 other than against an opponent directly in front of you requires you to drop out of formation/break the shield wall just as dodging or parrying does? A shortsword then becomes a useful backup weapon, because if the shield wall is breaking but mostly intact, you can still stab the guy who killed the guy next to you without breaking the shield wall further. 

One issue is the rules more or less conflate very tight rigid phalanx formations with looser 1-2 person deep ‘Viking’ style shield walls without uniform weaponry (which seems a very common Orlanthi battle tactic), in which using larger 1-h seem less of an issue. The rule might still work, though, with the expected result that such shield walls fall apart easily when breached, turning into more of a standard melee - which actually seems pretty fair. 

[davecake]

These things are currently campaign relevant to me - I’m running an intermittent Sandheart game, and the PCs will often try to form a small (3-4 person wide) shield wall, so issues like this come up often. And I’d like my PCs to have reasons to act like historical troops a bit more when doing so. Of course, attempting to apply tactics used by large military formations in war time to small messy skirmishes is often a bit of a disaster, but that’s half the run - Yelmalion traditionalist and conservative thinking keeps leading them into using the wrong tactics for the job. 
it’s a bit of a running joke that I wanted the PCs in the Sandheart game to be generally less combat effective than average RQG beginning characters for a less heroic, more low level, game, but I didn’t  need to change the rules to accomplish this, just make them Yelmalions (thus saddling them with inappropriate tactics and depriving them of much good combat magic). 
 

A further Gloranthan weirdness is that several of the cults that use hoplite/phalanx tactics refuse to teach sword fighting in any way, which would be rather a problem for hoplites using short swords as a standard back up weapon. Rules wise, this gets  compounded by treating 1H and 2H use of even the same spear as two unrelated weapons. So hoplites etc are likely to be pretty terrible at using anything but their primary weapon. 
 

And then there is the further weirdness of the rules not believing any spear other than a short spear is used one handed*, thus making the 1h long spear that was the primary warriors weapon in the era and area it claims to be focussed on replicating non-existent. *sigh* like several others, I think a 1H long spear approximating the Greek doru is an obvious gap in the rules, and house rule it. 
 

 

* well, the rules do list a lance as a 1h spear, but then in the description says it is used 2H. And this was carried through to the weapons and equipment guide. Also, though it’s obviously a cavalry weapon, nothing in the rules seems to say it can’t be used on foot 🤨 but let’s just skip lightly over all that. There seems to be some confusion between the 2h kontos, which probably could also be used as a sarissa, and the later 1h couched lance. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by davecake

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

A further Gloranthan weirdness is that several of the cults that use hoplite/phalanx tactics refuse to teach sword fighting in any way, which would be rather a problem for hoplites using short swords as a standard back up weapon. Rules wise, this gets  compounded by treating 1H and 2H use of even the same spear as two unrelated weapons. So hoplites etc are likely to be pretty terrible at using anything but their primary weapon. 
 

And then there is the further weirdness of the rules not believing any spear other than a short spear is used one handed*, thus making the 1h long spear that was the primary warriors weapon in the era and area it claims to be focussed on replicating non-existent. *sigh* like several others, I think a 1H long spear approximating the Greek doru is an obvious gap in the rules, and house rule it. 

I thnk you've missed something here... Heavy Infantry get 25% in their primary and secondary weapons (and shield), and 15% for a tertiary.

So, a Yelmalion would have 2H long spear and shield as primary, possibly 1H long spear as secondary, and then a sword (short?) as tertiary. iFF adding 25% to each, then the primaries and secondary should be about 80-90%** (depending on Manipulation bonus - I think 15% should be fairly normal), and their tertiary around 65-70% (which I wouldn't say is "pretty terrible" for an emergency weapon).

And..... the length of the spear isn't clearly defined, so technically, do what you want with it! Is your 2m long spear short or long? Yes!

 

**  5-15% (Weapon base) +  10-15% (culture) + 25% (Occupation) + 25% (personal) + 15% (Manipulation) ... (tertiary may only be a 10% personal)

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

, I think a 1H long spear approximating the Greek doru is an obvious gap in the rules, and house rule it. 

On page 308 of the RIG says that yelmalio troops use pike in one hand, if that helps!!

 

The Yelmalio cult 
teaches its initiates how 
to use a shield in con-
junction with the Pike skill. 
This is a special exception 
to the rule that a shield 
cannot be used with a two-
handed weapon

[Darius West]

On 4/19/2022 at 12:48 PM, davecake said:

I’m tempted to make some sort of rule specifically to cover those cases. A specific rule that covers the cases of hoplites and legions might be that using a weapon of SR 1 or 2 other than against an opponent directly in front of you requires you to drop out of formation/break the shield wall just as dodging or parrying does? A shortsword then becomes a useful backup weapon, because if the shield wall is breaking but mostly intact, you can still stab the guy who killed the guy next to you without breaking the shield wall further.

I agree with your synopsis here davecake.  

When facing a phalanx, a player is generally being stabbed at by multiple pikes, and this is one of the best ways to concentrate attacks ever devised, and consequently has reoccurred on battlefields for centuries, and were still in use as late as the 19th Century.  

As you correctly suggest, a phalangite can really only parry with their shield.  They definitely won't be allowed to dodge, as that would break formation.  You also correctly point out that the shortsword is an optimal secondary weapon for a phalangite, as if they are forced into close combat, they can use this short stabbing weapon in the same manner as an "extremely cut-down pike" without breaking formation.  The same could not be said for an axe or a slashing sword in the same role, as these weapons require far larger frontage than pikes or short swords.

On 4/19/2022 at 12:48 PM, davecake said:

One issue is the rules more or less conflate very tight rigid phalanx formations with looser 1-2 person deep ‘Viking’ style shield walls without uniform weaponry (which seems a very common Orlanthi battle tactic), in which using larger 1-h seem less of an issue. The rule might still work, though, with the expected result that such shield walls fall apart easily when breached, turning into more of a standard melee - which actually seems pretty fair. 

There are a number of methods for breaking a pike formation.  Of course there are also a number of different potential pike formations, the obvious ones being the line, the "forwards & backwards facing line", the circle (schiltron), the packed square and the hollow square.  The primary purpose of the pike formation was to defeat the charge of mounted forces, but they are very effective against infantry as well due to the fact that one cannot parry multiple pike attacks at once.  

The classic method for cavalry was to use their higher speed to flank the pike line.  More effective however was the skirmisher, who used mobility to stay out of range of the slow moving formation while hitting them with projectiles.  The roman method involved hitting their shields with pilums whose tips bent, rendering them off-balance, and then slipping under the pikes to close.  Fear could sometimes cause a formation to break.  

In the case of the Orlanthi, their tactics generally will not favor their victory against a pike formation.  Their weapons have inferior length and their frontage is too large.  Also, given that the tactics of the Orlanthi generally amount to a charge, they have problems.  The obvious answer is to have the Orlanthi hit either one or both flanks, preferably from the front and rear, and "unzip" the line.  This can be further supported by spells such as telekinesis or sylphs that can allow access to the 3rd Dimension.  A shield wall formation might be able to close with a phalanx, but it isn't a danger until it is up close, and it can be pushed away by pikes without much ability to counter-attack.  It is also possible that a "suicide commando" TK drop into proximity of the phalanx's banner/standard to capture it might also collapse the formation, but that is a risky proposition, as you can point pikes into the air pretty easily.  Of course the best method is always surprise attack; hit them when they aren't in formation.

[Shiningbrow]

27 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There are a number of methods for breaking a pike formation. 

<snip>

Or go down instead of up... an earth elemental opening up a pit under the front row would cause havoc.

Or a few thunderbolts.

[SDLeary]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

The classic method for cavalry was to use their higher speed to flank the pike line.  More effective however was the skirmisher, who used mobility to stay out of range of the slow moving formation while hitting them with projectiles.  The roman method involved hitting their shields with pilums whose tips bent, rendering them off-balance, and then slipping under the pikes to close.  Fear could sometimes cause a formation to break.  

Another method, and one which PCs could employ if faced by such, is terrain. Pike formations do NOT like rocky or soft terrain. 

SDLeary

[g33k]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

... Pike formations do NOT like rocky or soft terrain. 

Or forests!

[10baseT]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:13 AM, Karlak One-eye said:

There are rules for getting into close (it’s not automatic for intelligent opponents for example) but it provides an in game sensible reason for using weapons that may not be optimal for melee but might keep you alive rolling in the dirt. 

I like this close combat idea. How do you rule it for RQG? (I'd like to implement doing this as well.)

[HreshtIronBorne]

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

In the case of the Orlanthi, their tactics generally will not favor their victory against a pike formation.

My favorite trick when playing an Orlanthi PC against enemy formations is the Teleport spell. Some coordinated Teleportation can do wonders to shatter a shield wall. Along with all the other spells an Orlanthi clan can bring to bear. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

My favorite trick when playing an Orlanthi PC against enemy formations is the Teleport spell. Some coordinated Teleportation can do wonders to shatter a shield wall. Along with all the other spells an Orlanthi clan can bring to bear. 

it works for sure but it may depend on your ennemies (and sometimes... gm 😛 )

if you are facing a smart/professional formation, there will be probably some unities dedicated to counter attack it :

you may have a formation with a phalanx facing the ennemy line and behind them some supports (priests, shaman, skirmishers, even healers..) with two missions :

heal /buff the phalanx and   demoralize / disrupt / destroy any orlanthi fool enough to use the well known 3 rune points spell [become a sandwich], unique use  for orlanth initiates, and sometimes even for wind lords 🙂

 

I did imagine some attack with earth/air/darkness elementals  (water maybe too but you need at least a river), easy to break a formation. But that is the same, after 2-3 experiences like that, any tactitian would imagine something to block it. Don't know what by the way, other elementals ? or priests with command spell ?

 

[Ali the Helering]

On 4/20/2022 at 12:13 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Or go down instead of up... an earth elemental opening up a pit under the front row would cause havoc.

Or a few thunderbolts.

Or a durulz rolling under the pikes and chopping off the legs of the Yelmalions.  An unexpected tactic, but very effective at disruption.🦵😒

[Karlak One-eye]

On 4/20/2022 at 7:21 PM, 10baseT said:

I like this close combat idea. How do you rule it for RQG? (I'd like to implement doing this as well.)

Hi 10base. We tend to be flexible rather than using tight rules. I’ll try to dig out the DQ rules and then cover how we adapt them.

In essence if a player or NPC can explain how they plan to get in close then we can rule the right roll to use or even no roll at all. 

In conventional combat typically it required a successful parry or dodge then a will power check to get past the long weapon and close/grapple. Entering an existing close combat is automatic. 

Further stuff tomorrow inshallah. 

[Karlak One-eye]

D@mn. Forgot. Sorry folks. 

[Karlak One-eye]

Here is a set of extracts from DQ adjusted for RQ environment by our House rules. It's not straightforward but the principles are as follows:

• Close combat exists as a thing where no shields and only certain weapons can be used while rolling around on the ground
• Entering close is automatic by surprise or from the rear, if attempted at the charge from the front  it is doable but the opponent gets a dodge or some sort of courage check. entering from existing melee combat is harder against skilled opponents, and needs some sort of courage check from the attacker as wel las the defender getting a say.
• natural beasties become more dangerous, especially ambush predators. for things lie bears we allow an attack with a normal weapon as the enter close but after that you are doing a Conan and trying to kill a grizzly with a hatchet!
• a multiple pile on (say 3-4 trollkin) onto one opponent allows a good chance of restraining and capturing an opponent. Which is a great alternative to the traditional short spear impale in the back alternative for all your Yelmalio characters.

As you might guess we have principle and narrative rather than crunchy rules (you have no idea how hard it has been for me as a wargamer to adjust to that!) but with 45 years RPG experience we are pretty good at winging it and making situational decisions to keep the story going.

Extract:

[20.6] An engaged figure may attempt to Close and Grapple.

If the figure who wishes to Close and Grapple is within the Melee Zone (i.e. a frontal adjacent hex) of the defender, the attacker must make a courage check (passions are good for this). If the defender wishes to Repulse, he rolls D10 and compares the result to his Rank with any prepared weapon. If the result is less than or equal to his Rank, the attacker may not enter the defender’s hex and must cease all action for that Pulse. If the result is above the Rank, the attacker may enter the defender’s hex and execute a Grapple attack immediately.

DQ weapon ranks don’t translate across to RQ that easily but they do represent combat competence and trying to close from the front of an effective opponent is quite hard so we have tried other methods to reflect combat competence and have settled on using a parry roll to “bounce” an attempt to close. Remembering that if the attacker is an animal or unintelligent opponent then closing is automatic

An attempt to enter close combat from a rear hex or against a surprised or FI opponent succeeds automatically

If the figure who wishes to Close and Grapple is not within the Melee Zone (i.e. a frontal adjacent hex) of the defender and is therefore charging, the defender may attempt to repulse the Close attempt by making a courage check (rolling under twice their willpower stat). If the roll fails the attacker may immediately enter and Grapple.  For RQ we use an appropriate substitute for Willpower – like a passion check or dodge/defence or maybe Strength or Pow. DQ stats are close to the same range as RQ so twice a stat is still often challenging

 Note: Any figure who enters Close Combat must immediately drop any prepared shield and any prepared weapon not rated for Close Combat. As must the defending character.

[20.7] A figure engaged in Close Combat may attempt to Grapple, Pass or Withdraw.

A Grapple is an attack in Close Combat against any figure who occupies the same hex as the attacker. It is assumed any figures engaged in Close Combat are rolling around on the ground, struggling with each other. Grappling may only be attempted with a weapon rated for Close Combat or with unarmed combat.

The figure who wishes to pass while in Close Combat may take any Pass action he wishes (at the GM’s discretion).

The figure who wishes to Withdraw while in Close Combat must first attempt to “break contact.” The figure rolls D10, and adds his Str and that of any other friendly figures in the hex, and subtracts the total combined Str of any hostile figures in the hex. If the modified result is 10 or above, the figure may withdraw into any adjacent hex and is assumed to be prone. In addition, an unmodified roll of 10 always allows Withdrawal.

Restrain: A figure may attempt to restrain another figure by executing a Grapple. A successful attack results in the hostile figure being restrained (pinned). The Base Chance equals ((attacker’s Strength+ modified Dex) ‑ (target’s Strength+ modified Dex)) ´3. No damage is done to the target. A restrained figure is treated as incapacitated, and remains restrained until the hold is broken by an attack from outside the hex which inflicts at least one points of effective damage to the restraining figure. Several figures may combine their PS and AG to attempt to restrain a hostile figure.

Hope this helps

[10baseT]

4 hours ago, Karlak One-eye said:

natural beasties become more dangerous, especially ambush predators. for things lie bears we allow an attack with a normal weapon as the enter close but after that you are doing a Conan and trying to kill a grizzly with a hatchet!

I like this, thank you. I also was wanting something for these ambush predators and I think you hit the nail on the head.

On the wargames, lol, I do the same. (I actually use ASL's Residual Fire rules in concept in CoC/DG, but that's another game.)

Cheers, Gil

[Darius West]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:03 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

My favorite trick when playing an Orlanthi PC against enemy formations is the Teleport spell. Some coordinated Teleportation can do wonders to shatter a shield wall. Along with all the other spells an Orlanthi clan can bring to bear. 

I am aware of the trick, and  suggest you always try to take out the commanders in the first hit (The ol' cut the head off the snake trick).  For your average Sartarite who only has 3RP that is a high risk strategy tho.  

IMO, in Gloranthan warfare where RP are scarce for most people, you want to minimize the magic you use for maneuver so you can use it for keeping yourself alive with Heal Self (to keep your limbs from falling off at embarrassing moments), Shield and similar magic.  That means mundane maneuvers like various forms of "unzipping the line" will be preferred.  Skirmishing would be good too. 

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am aware of the trick, and  suggest you always try to take out the commanders in the first hit (The ol' cut the head off the snake trick).  For your average Sartarite who only has 3RP that is a high risk strategy tho.  

IMO, in Gloranthan warfare where RP are scarce for most people, you want to minimize the magic you use for maneuver so you can use it for keeping yourself alive with Heal Self (to keep your limbs from falling off at embarrassing moments), Shield and similar magic.  That means mundane maneuvers like various forms of "unzipping the line" will be preferred.  Skirmishing would be good too. 

In larger battles, though, you likely have specialized units aimed at behind-enemy-lines operations... Teleport, Fly, Invisibility, etc.

Their RP-usage isn't competing with Shield and other "survive combat" magics, as they are more about surprise & the "surgical strike" and less "sustained combat."

And the same can (at least sometimes) be true even in small-scale "adventurers" combat, where you may be looking to get behind the high-armor / high-HP / high-weapon-skill front line to the high-MP / high-POW / bound-spirits sorts of magic-centric threats... e.g. forgoing Shield for Teleport & the chance to sink a Fireblade into the back of a Broo Shaman of Malia?  I suspect many would take that bargain!

Edited April 24, 2022 by g33k
exempli gratia

[Monty Lovering]

On 4/19/2022 at 1:17 PM, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

On page 308 of the RIG says that yelmalio troops use pike in one hand, if that helps!!

 

The Yelmalio cult 
teaches its initiates how 
to use a shield in con-
junction with the Pike skill. 
This is a special exception 
to the rule that a shield 
cannot be used with a two-
handed weapon

It means they have the shield slung around their neck on a strap. Sounds weird but totally a historical thing. 

Chap on the left is kindly demonstrating this as well as illustrating a pikeman without a formation has problems if they don’t chuck it down and draw a secondary weapon. 

[Monty Lovering]

On 4/19/2022 at 5:25 AM, davecake said:

These things are currently campaign relevant to me - I’m running an intermittent Sandheart game, and the PCs will often try to form a small (3-4 person wide) shield wall, so issues like this come up often. And I’d like my PCs to have reasons to act like historical troops a bit more when doing so. Of course, attempting to apply tactics used by large military formations in war time to small messy skirmishes is often a bit of a disaster, but that’s half the run - Yelmalion traditionalist and conservative thinking keeps leading them into using the wrong tactics for the job. 
it’s a bit of a running joke that I wanted the PCs in the Sandheart game to be generally less combat effective than average RQG beginning characters for a less heroic, more low level, game, but I didn’t  need to change the rules to accomplish this, just make them Yelmalions (thus saddling them with inappropriate tactics and depriving them of much good combat magic). 
 

A further Gloranthan weirdness is that several of the cults that use hoplite/phalanx tactics refuse to teach sword fighting in any way, which would be rather a problem for hoplites using short swords as a standard back up weapon. Rules wise, this gets  compounded by treating 1H and 2H use of even the same spear as two unrelated weapons. So hoplites etc are likely to be pretty terrible at using anything but their primary weapon. 
 

And then there is the further weirdness of the rules not believing any spear other than a short spear is used one handed*, thus making the 1h long spear that was the primary warriors weapon in the era and area it claims to be focussed on replicating non-existent. *sigh* like several others, I think a 1H long spear approximating the Greek doru is an obvious gap in the rules, and house rule it. 
 

 

* well, the rules do list a lance as a 1h spear, but then in the description says it is used 2H. And this was carried through to the weapons and equipment guide. Also, though it’s obviously a cavalry weapon, nothing in the rules seems to say it can’t be used on foot 🤨 but let’s just skip lightly over all that. There seems to be some confusion between the 2h kontos, which probably could also be used as a sari sea, and the later 1h couched lance. 

I have three sets of rules; coherent line, shield wall, phalanx. The first two are kind of phalanx-lite. And they all use a set of rules for ranked attacks to reflect how many jabby-pointy things are going to be in your face. Did the research and everything.

Haven’t used them more than once (ranked attack rules to allow two PCs with spears in a corridor behind a swordsman to attack person in room attacking swordsman) but it was fun making them. 

I also decided that my Glorantha has stirrups and couched lances, and that judging by 18th and 19th Century cavalry training, lancers learn to use spears one handed in melee as well as the charge, so lance % = 1H spear %, but obviously not the other way round. Sucks if you’re infantry but ain’t it always so.  

 

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, g33k said:

In larger battles, though, you likely have specialized units aimed at behind-enemy-lines operations... Teleport, Fly, Invisibility, etc.

BUMP

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

21 hours ago, g33k said:

In larger battles, though, you likely have specialized units aimed at behind-enemy-lines operations... Teleport, Fly, Invisibility, etc.

Their RP-usage isn't competing with Shield and other "survive combat" magics, as they are more about surprise & the "surgical strike" and less "sustained combat."

for me that's for some "suicide" mission. Infiltrate, kill the target, then do what you can to survive, but the success is the target's death, not your survival. At least, you may be worshipped and honored after your life, that a huge bounty !

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me that's for some "suicide" mission. Infiltrate, kill the target, then do what you can to survive, but the success is the target's death, not your survival. At least, you may be worshipped and honored after your life, that a huge bounty !

Depends on how many RPs you have. 

But, given the probable expenditures involved,  I'd say that's fairly inefficient.  Thunderbolt is probably giving a much better bang for buck.

[coffeemancer]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Depends on how many RPs you have. 

But, given the probable expenditures involved,  I'd say that's fairly inefficient.  Thunderbolt is probably giving a much better bang for buck.

worked pretty good on Kallyr

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

worked pretty good on Kallyr

Although the Lunars did loose the battle.