Pike & Phalanx formations

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

worked pretty good on Kallyr

I meant... 3 pts for Teleporting in, however many points used in staying alive while at the back there (probably including needing to Shield up, probably at least one Heal Wound, if not a 3pt Heal Body, amongst others), and then probably another 3pts for Teleporting out....

Versus - you could use those 6+ points on a Thunderbolt to take down a few in one go with minimal risk to self.

[JRE]

For bigger groups, specially with access to sorcery such as some Lunars, Protective circle is a big obstacle to this magic use. Wyters / Regimental spirits may also play havoc with your stealthy teleports, depending on their range.

What will work with a patrol will not work with a regiment. You need to think differently.

It is possible that the orlanthi think teleport because it is the technique they have, but maybe Kallyr assassins were dropped invisibly from a high altitude moon boat, and glided down with the help of a sylph. They appear as if teleporting when the Sartar's Royal Guard wyter dispels the invisibility.... Or maybe they are loyal Lunar Orlanthi showing their loyalty to the Empire by taking on a suicide mission.

In a way magic is a game of paper, scissors, stone, spock, lizard, so expectations and research can make characters much more involved in the action, specially by challenging those expectations. But of course the players should always have a chance, so the challenge must fit also with the characters.

[JRE]

In Glorantha a famous regiment will usually beat a recently formed one, just by the weight of tradition and magic, so you should not extrapolate too much from real world pairings. The wyter is a key part of this, and IMG an additional protection against rampaging heroes / PCs. Soul sight and Dismiss / Dispel Magic is a powerful defensive combo, and a 100 POW Wyter may be enough to keep any sane shaman far away. The reason why some Lunar regiments are successors from centuries old Dara Happan ones is because it works. 

[soltakss]

In my Glorantha, almost everyone has a variant of the Horns of the Bull/Wings of the Eagle, where the head makes an attack and the wings/horns sweep around. It is almost a secret technique that everyone knows about.

[coffeemancer]

I have had an idea.

I am going to let Yelmalions use their speciel phalanx magic.... on anyone.

IE: a group of 4 warriors worshipping other gods can form a phalanx if they are led by a yelmalion.

This, I think, will make Yelmalio more attractive for the players and mechanically I dont think it will unbalance anything as phalanxes are only useful in certain scenarios/situations

[JRE]

It probably is semantics, but I believe that to have a working pike phalanx, rather than a shield wall, you need a lot of people, as you need a minimum frontage and depth, specially if you want to be able to adopt a hedhehog formation to protect all sides. I would expect a minimum of 64 (8x8), which is probably out of most games. Lunars might well settle on 7x7, but prime numbers are unwieldy compared to base 2. 

Alexander's silver shields, his elite phalangites, fought in rough terrain and sieges in a similar way to what later would become the thureophoroi, a relatively loose formation with long thrusting spear and javelin, though probably keeping their tell-tale silver shields rather than the later oval thureos shield. It is supposed that is also the equipment when acting as royal guards, as it makes no sense to use pikes for that.

Ancients were not fools, so pikes would be used only when appropiate, and in other cases they would adapt. Of course a sign of elite status is the number of different situations you can cope with. 

[Monty Lovering]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

It probably is semantics, but I believe that to have a working pike phalanx, rather than a shield wall, you need a lot of people, as you need a minimum frontage and depth, specially if you want to be able to adopt a hedhehog formation to protect all sides. I would expect a minimum of 64 (8x8), which is probably out of most games. Lunars might well settle on 7x7, but prime numbers are unwieldy compared to base 2. 

Alexander's silver shields, his elite phalangites, fought in rough terrain and sieges in a similar way to what later would become the thureophoroi, a relatively loose formation with long thrusting spear and javelin, though probably keeping their tell-tale silver shields rather than the later oval thureos shield. It is supposed that is also the equipment when acting as royal guards, as it makes no sense to use pikes for that.

Ancients were not fools, so pikes would be used only when appropiate, and in other cases they would adapt. Of course a sign of elite status is the number of different situations you can cope with. 

This is why I have a different set of rules for:

a/ a single rank where the shield of one member don’t benefit the person on their left, and parry and dodge are allowed, but the line is coherent enough an opponent cannot pass through without allowing attacks of opportunity. This is typically only used in situations where the ends of the line are protected by walls, as in three people advancing up a corridor with shields overlapping. It requires 60% skill in participants and a Battle roll to maintain, and allows strikes from the second rank with long thrusting weapons.

b/ at least one rank where the shield of one member benefits the person on their left. No parry or dodge. Some benefits of a phalanx but more mobile. Can be smaller than a phalanx, even 2x2.

c/ phalanxes. 

[Godlearner]

Running a small battle in my campaign where a fishing village militia, supported by adventurers, defended against some coastal raiders. The raiders had better armor and their skills were about 20% better and, on the average, they were 3 points bigger in SIZ. The adventurers made their Battle skills and had the militia line up in a double line with the front rank forming a shield wall. The raiders charged and attempted to break that up by slamming into the front rank. 

It turned into a slaughter. It is now round 4 with over half the raiders unconscious or dead. The shield wall lasted only a round, but in that round, the set spears took a heavy toll, while the braced militia managed not to give way.  

[davecake]

On 4/19/2022 at 7:16 PM, Shiningbrow said:

thnk you've missed something here... Heavy Infantry get 25% in their primary and secondary weapons (and shield), and 15% for a tertiary.

So, a Yelmalion would have 2H long spear and shield as primary, possibly 1H long spear as secondary, and then a sword (short?) as tertiary

My issue is that if the cult refuses to train the sword in any way, which should include drilling etc, and it seldom sees use, it should not even get that 15%. The idea that a military unit would refuse training with any of its weapons is ridiculous. 
 

[davecake]

On 4/28/2022 at 2:52 PM, coffeemancer said:

I am going to let Yelmalions use their speciel phalanx magic.... on anyone.

IE: a group of 4 warriors worshipping other gods can form a phalanx if they are led by a yelmalion.

The whole idea of a phalanx is a tight formation all using the same fighting technique. And it’s a special skill, not magical at all. 
Plus they don’t officially have any such magic, and it’s unlikely they’ll ever have any. And if they get it from a wyter - then restricting its use to its community is what wyters do, basically. 
 

[davecake]

On 4/19/2022 at 7:17 PM, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

On page 308 of the RIG says that yelmalio troops use pike in one hand, if that helps!!

That is a misinterpretation. The next sentence clarifies, and the longer explanation in past and future Yelmalio cult writeups makes it clear - they use a large shield (passively in a shield wall, rather active parrying) with a pike wielded 2h, with the aid of a strap. 

[davecake]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:44 PM, Darius West said:

In the case of the Orlanthi, their tactics generally will not favor their victory against a pike formation. 

I don’t think this is that always true. The advantage Orlanthi have is mobility and maneuverability (multiple forms of magic, fairly light troops) and generally they are good at skirmish tactics (javelin as a cultural weapon), which they will use against Yelmalio pike formations, or will try very hard to attack them from the flank if they do enter close combat. The pike formation will absolutely crush average Orlanthi troops that end up facing a pike formation front on, but an Orlanthi commander should be trying very hard not to that. 
More generally pike formations are very good heavy infantry, probably superior to almost all Orlanthi heavy infantry, but the Orlanthi have plenty of light infantry and it really comes down to how tactics, terrain and circumstance - are the Orlanthi able to wear down the phalanx with skirmishes and flank attacks before it engages the main front. 
Of course, the Templars have a few other troop types that they use to prevent flanking,  and I think understand combined arms tactics pretty well, but not many of them. 
(though if they, say, are fighting with a bunch of eg Yelmalio worshipping Impala tribesmen, it’s a different story). 
Of course the Templars can also use other formations, but that has other issues, and mostly doesn’t change things much, because it’s the skirmishing that’s more important than the flanking. The pike formation is very hard to beat by normal close combat, but it’s going to advance slowly (because tight formation) with skirmishes tearing at them. If they last with enough intact to engage the enemy shield wall etc, they should win. 
Though when they do meet, the Orlanthi are still going to try to use their mobility advantage (eg Leap over those front rank pikes! An ambush from behind! ) and some individual heroics to try to break that formation, and if they succeed the Templars are in big trouble - can’t use their pikes, probably just their short swords (or whatever), and they can’t even use their shields without ruining the formation. 

[Shiningbrow]

50 minutes ago, davecake said:

My issue is that if the cult refuses to train the sword in any way, which should include drilling etc, and it seldom sees use, it should not even get that 15%. The idea that a military unit would refuse training with any of its weapons is ridiculous. 
 

Ok, I see your point.

Perhaps... being a mercenary cult, and hopefully fairly logical, they don't teach the sword specifically as a tertiary weapon, but do have trainers who can teach a variety of tertiary weapons. After all, there is the tertiary skill bonus for infantry, so it's got to be done by someone. (or, perhaps, if not the cult, it can be supposed that it was just picked up in the intervening years of travelling around and fighting, rather than being specifically trained by a cult member??)

[davecake]

On 4/21/2022 at 4:40 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

did imagine some attack with earth/air/darkness elementals  (water maybe too but you need at least a river), easy to break a formation. But that is the same, after 2-3 experiences like that, any tactitian would imagine something to block it. Don't know what by the way, other elementals ? or priests with command spell ?

Elementals are expensive magic, and and very vulnerable to plain old combat and surprisingly fragile in combat unless you spend a lot more magic to defend them. They are just a big pile of hit points, but armour less, and fully vulnerable to mundane weapons. And remember that their attacks are always last in the round - and elementals often last less than that in a real fight. So the tactic to use against elementals is just kill them very quickly! 

Earth are the most useful - you can use them to create earthworks. Air are mostly useful for moving people around the battlefield, though they are very vulnerable to missile fire. Darkness and Fire and Moon all have the same problem - not really useful for anything but direct attack, but very very vulnerable if they do. Though Fire can be used to mess with enemy defenses by lighting fires. 

[davecake]

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps... being a mercenary cult, and hopefully fairly logical, they don't teach the sword specifically as a tertiary weapon, but do have trainers who can teach a variety of tertiary weapons.

The Yelmalio cult ‘will not teach the sword for any price’, though do not technically forbid it. 
I am amused by the idea of the Sun Dome Templars ostentatiously saying ‘we do not teach the sword for any price, for it is a vile weapon that slew the divine father Yelm’, then saying ‘and unrelatedly, weapons training on Windsday will be provided by independent contractors, the Deathsword Killers…. ‘

[Shiningbrow]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

Elementals are expensive magic, and and very vulnerable to plain old combat and surprisingly fragile in combat unless you spend a lot more magic to defend them. They are just a big pile of hit points, but armour less, and fully vulnerable to mundane weapons. And remember that their attacks are always last in the round - and elementals often last less than that in a real fight. So the tactic to use against elementals is just kill them very quickly! 

Earth are the most useful - you can use them to create earthworks. Air are mostly useful for moving people around the battlefield, though they are very vulnerable to missile fire. Darkness and Fire and Moon all have the same problem - not really useful for anything but direct attack, but very very vulnerable if they do. Though Fire can be used to mess with enemy defenses by lighting fires. 

If someone put an elemental in the middle or behind a pike formation, I wouldn't be allowing the troops in that formation to be able to do anything about it for at least a couple of rounds - first from surprise, then dropping the pike to take out the sword/axe etc, and then on the third have a chance to attack back. So, 2 full rounds can wreak a bit of havoc. And then it can move to others.  Other than the obvious, they can also move up to be out of range of melee weapons, giving the enemy time to advance into the breach, which should then refocus the pikers attention so that the elementals can come back down again. (guiding the elemental could be an issue... What's the ruling on how far away the spell caster can command? How are commands issued?)

(yes, I get there might be an issue with being able to summon it anywhere you want).

However, for those RPs, yes, they're a bit expensive unless you have someone dedicated to Commanding the elementals and moving them about to keep them safe while the rest of the troops attack.

[davecake]

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If someone put an elemental in the middle or behind a pike formation,

If it’s not at the front, it’s not where it needs to be - you are using really good magic in order to inflict casualties where they are not useful. Not useless, but not usually how you win battle. And if it’s attacking the front, the rear ranks just stab it. 

Also, if the elemental is summoned in the middle of a group, then there is no chance to cast defensive magic on it. 
I mean it’s not a worthless tactic - if it’s in the middle of pitched battle, it will be damaging for sure. But it’s not a super powerful tactic that turns the tide of battle either. Very little Rune magic is, really. And it’s a very desperate way to use your elementals, which used in less direct ways are very useful. 

 

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

wouldn't be allowing the troops in that formation to be able to do anything about it for at least a couple of rounds - first from surprise, then dropping the pike to take out the sword/axe etc, and then on the third have a chance to attack back.

 Well, sure, any tactic looks good if you selectively interpret the rules with a bias to making it look good! 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by davecake

[davecake]

33 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, 2 full rounds can wreak a bit of havoc. And then it can move to others.

Seriously, if it’s been in the middle of a military unit, without any defensive magic, probably already dead. 

 

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Other than the obvious, they can also move up to be out of range of melee weapons,

Elementals, with 0 armour points, are far more vulnerable to ranged weapons than any other troops. As well as making big obvious targets. Elementals that just move out of close combat are in big trouble if they can be targeted by ranged weapons. 

 

38 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, for those RPs, yes, they're a bit expensive unless you have someone dedicated to Commanding the elementals and moving them about to keep them safe while the rest of the troops attack.

Keeping them safe means a combination of casting a whole lot more defensive magic, and keeping them a long way away from combat. Seriously, elementals don’t last long in the middle of battle. 
I had a whole bunch of elementals when I ran the Cradle, and some had a few notable wins, but they are very fragile. 

[Shiningbrow]

37 minutes ago, davecake said:

Seriously, if it’s been in the middle of a military unit, without any defensive magic, probably already dead. 

Elementals, with 0 armour points, are far more vulnerable to ranged weapons than any other troops. As well as making big obvious targets. Elementals that just move out of close combat are in big trouble if they can be targeted by ranged weapons. 

Keeping them safe means a combination of casting a whole lot more defensive magic, and keeping them a long way away from combat. Seriously, elementals don’t last long in the middle of battle. 
I had a whole bunch of elementals when I ran the Cradle, and some had a few notable wins, but they are very fragile. 

Like any tactic, it requires good strategy to get the most out of it. Otherwise, it can be worse than simply wasted. Also, it looks like we have very different ideas of value here.

Elementals are certainly glass cannons.

Normally, for theist cults, a large elemental costs 3 RPs to summon, and 1 RP to Command. However, they can also be summoned and bound in advance, so those 3 RPs can be used elsewhere. They also can't be Dismissed without the appropriate spell, which your enemies shouldn't have. So, yes, they are quite vulnerable to melee attacks, but as discussed above, in tight pike formation, that requires letting go of the primary to draw the shorter weapon - which takes time, exposes the formation, and in such a formation, the swinging should have heavy penalties... all while the elemental can move freely between the troops, burning, terrifying and freezing away...

If a large elemental, such as a dehori, lune or urzani, can be dropped into a tight formation, then they can affect up to 10 troops at a time (or, for the urzani - fire elemental - affect a good 5-10 pikes (double or triple if there are a few lines overlapping) at a time - enough for a good opening to be made as they burn the weapons as the enemy charges). Most large elementals are doing 3D6 damage or similar direct to hit points. Again, to up to 10 at a time (depending on GM fiat... at the very least, 5 should be acceptable). Please tell me of any other Rune spells that can do 3D6 direct to 5-10 targets in 1 go for only (maximum) of 4 RP. And, then can do the same again to another group of targets for the same damage - for free!

Even Talosi can be used like this... they don't need to kill. They just need to make the formation less cohesive to open up the lines and create a breach.

 

Just ideas...

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Elementals are expensive magic, and and very vulnerable to plain old combat and surprisingly fragile in combat unless you spend a lot more magic to defend them. They are just a big pile of hit points, but armour less, and fully vulnerable to mundane weapons. And remember that their attacks are always last in the round - and elementals often last less than that in a real fight. So the tactic to use against elementals is just kill them very quickly! 

Earth are the most useful - you can use them to create earthworks. Air are mostly useful for moving people around the battlefield, though they are very vulnerable to missile fire. Darkness and Fire and Moon all have the same problem - not really useful for anything but direct attack, but very very vulnerable if they do. Though Fire can be used to mess with enemy defenses by lighting fires. 

I agree with you, for me, it may be usefull (expensive, it depends how many rp you save by "breaking" the phalanx : ROI) but only with people who are not prepared to face this kind of attack, and I m prettyt sure that any military / mercenary unit is trained to face it, as you describe in your posts

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, 2 full rounds can wreak a bit of havoc.

not so sure

1) your warriors have to cover the distance. They are not yet in melee (or they are dying)

2) your warriors must start as the right times. It is not possible (my point of view) that they are able to move just at the right time to "touch" the phalanx exactly when it is disturbed, they should "see" the elemental to move

 

so first round: "readiness, see, move"

second round , ok one attack allowed

 

[JRE]

IMG the third weapon of Yelmalions will be a projectile weapon, either javelin or bow. A military campaign is much more than a field battle. Ideally, for a mercenary, it is everything except a field battle. If you are foraging, patrolling or occupying a town / city, pikes are useless, and Templars, as in my phalangite example above, will use spears and possibly javelins. For foraging and patrolling a ranged weapon is a must. Javelins can be carried and used with a shield, while bows have some mythical significance and are very useful when foraging for food.

Following other traditional users of phalanx tactics, only proven, reliable men (and a few women) will be in the phalanx. Others will be working as auxiliaries, in loose order with long spears, covering rough terrain, chasing skirmishers, and supporting the flanks of the phalanx, while waiting for their opportunity to join the ranks. All ancient armies have skirmishers, often teenagers, that act as scouts and covering the advance, retreating behind their big brothers when anything menacing comes. More or less like trolkin, in fact, except trolkin cannot grow up.

I would expect any tactic we can think of has already been tried in Glorantha. If RW pikemen could advance through cannon fire and arrive diminished but in good order, an elemental you can actually stab and dismiss will be a minor obstacle at most, specially for a Wyter reinforced phalanx. And in case there are earth elementals lurking underground, that is what the youngster skirmish line is for, as I do not expect you can give complex orders to a buried earth elemental. 

This is a small section of a (typical frontage would be 6-8 sections like this) Macedonian phalanx, twice as deep as hoplites would be. Jumping or even flying will not be a good idea. As you can see you have to go through five pikes just to get to contact...

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

not so sure

1) your warriors have to cover the distance. They are not yet in melee (or they are dying)

2) your warriors must start as the right times. It is not possible (my point of view) that they are able to move just at the right time to "touch" the phalanx exactly when it is disturbed, they should "see" the elemental to move

 

so first round: "readiness, see, move"

second round , ok one attack allowed

No - it'd be the other way around. The warriors would charge, and the magician would time the magic to coincide with that. If the elemental doesn't create the break, then you stop short of being impaled. (logically, I'd expect at least the front row to dive under the pikes.

But, again, tactics and strategy - all depending on what you're facing.

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but only with people who are not prepared to face this kind of attack, and I m prettyt sure that any military / mercenary unit is trained to face it, as you describe in your posts

Who knows what to expect?? Which makes things more fun...

[icebrand]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

If someone put an elemental in the middle or behind a pike formation, I wouldn't be allowing the troops in that formation to be able to do anything about it for at least a couple of rounds - first from surprise, then dropping the pike to take out the sword/axe etc, and then on the third have a chance to attack back. So, 2 full rounds can wreak a bit of havoc. And then it can move to others.  

Surprise within 3 meters: +3 SR.

How is the phallanx surprised anyway?

Elementals are highly visible and theres a priest summoning it? Also its a whole other action to control it.

The back ranks can freely attack the elemental, and the affected people can also kick to death freely, since you cant be standing there capitalizing action economy (because, you know, you just summoned an elemental there).

Of course you can always break formation like you said.

Surprise is +3 SR (again, this is with a pre-casted elemental w/invisibility, so how often does this come into play?)

Dropping the pike and getting your sidearm is +5 SR not 2 combat rounds. You can also shield bash at no SR penalty.

Edited April 29, 2022 by icebrand

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, icebrand said:

Elementals are highly visible and theres a priest summoning it?

Firstly,  I don't think all elementals are as obviously visible as you suggest.  After all, they are merely spirits inhabiting its natural element. A fire elemental being a fire looks like a fire... darkness is darkness. (of course,  an elemental acting outside its natural environment would be obvious ). Earth elementals can travel deeper underground and come up underneath, completely undetected.

Secondly,  the priest can be standing 180m away, so it won't actually be clear what they're doing. All the phalanx might see is someone casting a spell.

10 hours ago, icebrand said:

The back ranks can freely attack the elemental,

I wouldn't use the term "freely", but it will depend on how tight the formation is (in theory,  the shields should be covering their companion, so that's not much freedom move about). Also, their reach will be a factor,  as well as getting past those in front.

 

10 hours ago, icebrand said:

and the affected people can also kick to death freely,

If the elemental is at ground level.

 

10 hours ago, icebrand said:

since you cant be standing there capitalizing action economy (because, you know, you just summoned an elemental there).

The summoner probably won't be involved in melee anyway...

 

10 hours ago, icebrand said:

Surprise is +3 SR (again, this is with a pre-casted elemental w/invisibility, so how often does this come into play?)

Dropping the pike and getting your sidearm is +5 SR not 2 combat rounds. You can also shield bash at no SR penalty.

Surprise is +3... after the initial attack. So,  there's the first round gone.

Dropping the pike +5 to base SR, then add SR to the attack. although,  in tight formation,  I'd add more.

And then remember that the elemental is engulfing your companions,  not standing off to the side waiting to be hit. So, combined with the formation reducing swing room (almost yo zero, thrust only) and trying not to hit your companions,  I think a reduction in attack % is warranted.

Shield bash - again,  you're largely hitting your mates.

 

I'm not trying yo suggest that using elementals against a formation is the ultimate solution.  I'm merely trying to show that they can be used effectively against them. And that they can be worth the RP expenditure.

 

(Wow!!! After typing that 2nd last sentence,  my auto-fill offered both the Harrek and Gunda as my next words )

[SDLeary]

12 hours ago, icebrand said:

The back ranks can freely attack the elemental,

Not so much. You don't want to lower your pike into the back of your comrade in front of you; also if pikes in the rear ranks are lowered, you diminish the protection they provide from missile fire (and remember only front ranks might have medium to heavy armor). Which means dropping the pike, using a secondary weapon, closing (breaking formation) and attacking the elemental. 

Depending, it has the possibility to disrupt the formation. At the very least, those in front will wonder what's going on, and slow down a bit, or look back and possibly panic.

SDLeary