Heal Rating Question

[polemikus]

Hi all, 

 

I hope I didn't overlook the question (and answer) to the following: 

You can have Heal 1 - 3 (Spirit Magic). If you (e.g.) have Heal 2, can you 

- just spend 1 Magic Point to just give 1 HP back? 

- use 3 Magic Points to give 3 Hit Points? 

- Use 5 Magic Points to give 5 Hit Points? 

For me the spell (p. 262) reads as if you can heal as much HP per Round as you have a rating in Heal (i.e. a fixed 2 if you have Heal 2). But can you spend less?

And it says on p 256 (grey box) that you can boost the spell. Or is that only regarding resistance?  

The question ( Have Heal 3 - can I give the Lunar only 1 HP?) came up today.

 

Finally, if you CAN'T spend less - can you learn all Heal 1, Heal 2 and Heal 3? 

 

Thanks! 

[Nevun]

Heya.

 

All variable Spirit magic spells can be cast at any level up to what you have learned. So if you know Heal 3, you can cast Heal 1, Heal 2 or Heal 3 - costing 1MP, 2MP or 3MP respectively.

The page 256 reference to boosting spells is purely for the purpose of breaking through countermagic or other resistances.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Nevun

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, polemikus said:

I hope I didn't overlook the question (and answer) to the following: 

You can have Heal 1 - 3 (Spirit Magic). If you (e.g.) have Heal 2, can you 

- just spend 1 Magic Point to just give 1 HP back? 

- use 3 Magic Points to give 3 Hit Points? 

- Use 5 Magic Points to give 5 Hit Points? 

For me the spell (p. 262) reads as if you can heal as much HP per Round as you have a rating in Heal (i.e. a fixed 2 if you have Heal 2). But can you spend less?

And it says on p 256 (grey box) that you can boost the spell. Or is that only regarding resistance?  

The question ( Have Heal 3 - can I give the Lunar only 1 HP?) came up today.

{Blast, for some reason I couldn't "split" that quote}

As mentioned -- for any VAR spell, you can cast at any level UP TO that which you know. Learning variables gets costly -- at least I recall threads implying you had to pay the cost for each intervening level: to learn Heal 3, you have to pay the cost for Heal 1, Heal 2, and Heal 3.

As for boosting -- that is to get past blocking magic... But anyone resisting a Heal must be insane or dead...

[Bill the barbarian]

6 hours ago, polemikus said:

For me the spell (p. 262) reads as if you can heal as much HP per Round as you have a rating in Heal (i.e. a fixed 2 if you have Heal 2). But can you spend less?

 

Too ill to look this up but...

...the emphasis I have added above make it seem like this spell can be incredibly powerful (ie greater than 11 MP) and still be cast in one round RAW... if polemikus is quoting it correctly. Anyone able to confirm this?

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Too ill to look this up but...

...the emphasis I have added above make it seem like this spell can be incredibly powerful (ie greater than 11 MP) and still be cast in one round RAW... if polemikus is quoting it correctly. Anyone able to confirm this?

Bill - No, but I'm able to deny that: 

"HP per round" was the words you emphasized as far as I can see.   But what it says is that if you have Heal 2 you can heal 2 hit points per round, not 11.

You must be running a fever.  Sorry you're ill.

[Bill the barbarian]

No fever, you must have one. read it again...

:0

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

For me the spell (p. 262) reads as if you can heal as much HP per Round as you have a rating in Heal (i.e. a fixed 2 if you have Heal 2). But can you spend less?

 

the question is whether one can cast a heal in one round no matter how many SRs it would take to cast based on the number of MPs... 

 

[g33k]

19 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

the question is whether one can cast a heal in one round no matter how many SRs it would take to cast based on the number of MPs... 

 

I think the "as many HP in one round" is the general-case statement, presuming the normal 1 spell per round.

If for some reason you're MP-boosting hugely (to overcome a big ol' countermagic / etc) then the special-case rules apply, and (burning enough MPs) the "one round" stretches into the next.

It would be frankly silly either to either:
  (a) specify the the same MP-boosting rules in all spell-descriptions;

or to:
  (b) make an exception that isn't explicitly clear, rather than hidden in casual phrasing.

 

As always, YGMV

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by g33k
typo

[Scotty]

10 hours ago, polemikus said:

Hi all, 

I hope I didn't overlook the question (and answer) to the following: 

You can have Heal 1 - 3 (Spirit Magic). If you (e.g.) have Heal 2, can you 

- just spend 1 Magic Point to just give 1 HP back? 

Yes. If you have Heal 2 you can Cast Heal 1

Quote

An adventurer can know a powerful variable spell and cast a weaker version of that spell.

Spells, Terminology, Variable/Nonvariable Spell, page 248

 

10 hours ago, polemikus said:

- use 3 Magic Points to give 3 Hit Points?

No. If you have Heal 2, you can only restore 2 Hit Points, you need Heal 3

10 hours ago, polemikus said:

- Use 5 Magic Points to give 5 Hit Points? 

No. If you have Heal 2, you can only restore 2 Hit Points, you need Heal 5

10 hours ago, polemikus said:

For me the spell (p. 262) reads as if you can heal as much HP per Round as you have a rating in Heal (i.e. a fixed 2 if you have Heal 2). But can you spend less?

Yes see above.

10 hours ago, polemikus said:

And it says on p 256 (grey box) that you can boost the spell. Or is that only regarding resistance?

Yes. There are few reasons to boost Heal (if any).

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

the question is whether one can cast a heal in one round no matter how many SRs it would take to cast based on the number of MPs... 

Once you’re tracking SRs, you can do what you have time for. With Dex SR 2, you can cast two Heal 2 in a round (2+1+5+2+1 = 11 SR).

If you have Dex SR 3, you can stil cast Heal 2 + Heal 1 in a round, as per the original question.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Yes. There are few reasons to boost Heal (if any).

Punching through friendly Countermagic (typically in the form of Shield) on a KO’d ally is the obvious use. Since this is expensive, we like to say that this situation is one of the main uses for First Aid (the other is saving MPs more generally).

Edited July 12, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

The spell which uses a variable amount of MP to heal is Heal Wound. As a rune spell it goes off on SR1, with one MP going off on that SR, and up to eleven more allowing the spell to take effect the same melee round.

As a delayed action (waiting for a comrade to take a lethal wound), less MP could be added to prevent death at the end of the melee round.

Spirit magic Heal can use MP up to the amount of points learned, healing the same amount. Then add 5 SR for another casting, DEX SR, and 1 SR for every MP beyond the first. Provided you succeed in your POWx5 rolls, with DEX SR2 and Heal 3 and focus ready you could get 3 points on SR 4, and 2 points from your second casting on SR 12. (Maybe on a different hit location.)

Edited July 12, 2022 by Joerg

[Bill the barbarian]

Wow thanks all for mansplaining (for lack of a better term) a game I have played for 4 decades.

Thanks!*

Not one of ya brought my main point to the fore though.... if  polemikus is correct and his statement stands, that is as worthy of mention and few posts as any other complaint that has made multipage complaint threads out of odd choices of wordings. 

13 hours ago, polemikus said:

For me the spell (p. 262) reads as if you can heal as much HP per Round as you have a rating in Heal

Per round is per round, if that is not in the book then I will hold my peace, otherwise...

*my ill health might be the cause of my frustration with people correcting me from something other than what I said. Lacking full mobility and wanting to vomit and not being able to does that! My tolerance is low, so my sarcasm is intended!

Edited July 12, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Akhôrahil]

I can’t see where it says that, though:

”This spell repairs damage done to hit points. The part of
the body being healed must be touched. Each point of Heal
repairs 1 hit point in a designated location. The effect is
immediate. If the location is not fully restored, Heal can be
used again in subsequent melee rounds.
Heal cannot raise an adventurer from the dead. However,
2 points of Heal will cauterize any wound or severed limb,
and 6 points of Heal will restore a severed limb to the body
if both parts are available.”

Where’s the ”per round” thing people are talking about? Is it ”subsequent melee rounds”? This is surely just poor phrasing - if the spell could only be cast once per round (unlike essentially every other Spirit Magic spell and standard rules for spellcasting), surely it would say so?

EDIT: Compare with general rule - ”If the caster is unsuccessful, no magic points are expended, and they may try again in the next melee round”. I for one don’t read this as forbidding repeated casting in a round after failure - it’s just dubious writing.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Spirit magic Heal can use MP up to the amount of points learned, healing the same amount. Then add 5 SR for another casting, DEX SR, and 1 SR for every MP beyond the first. Provided you succeed in your POWx5 rolls, with DEX SR2 and Heal 3 and focus ready you could get 3 points on SR 4, and 2 points from your second casting on SR 12. (Maybe on a different hit location.)

Revisiting this: what happens if the first POWx5  roll for Heal 3 fails? Does it fail on SR4, even though no MP were used up in the attempt?

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Revisiting this: what happens if the first POWx5  roll for Heal 3 fails? Does it fail on SR4, even though no MP were used up in the attempt?

Surely yes? Backtracking SRs doesn’t seem doable.

Another situation: what happens if you’re hit with a Slow between declaring and executing an action? Do you recalculate SR? I’m leaning towards ”yes”.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Surely yes? Backtracking SRs doesn’t seem doable.

And ease of GMing doesn't allow for a more variable temporal outcome, even though narratively/dramatically a spell that wouldn't quite go off might cause a caster to try a little harder and longer.

Narratively in-world, when and how does the attempt to gather your consumable magic potential falter?

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

And ease of GMing doesn't allow for a more variable temporal outcome, even though narratively/dramatically a spell that wouldn't quite go off might cause a caster to try a little harder and longer.

Narratively in-world, when and how does the attempt to gather your consumable magic potential falter?

It seems reasonable to me that you could screw it up at any point in the casting process, and also that you might realize that you’re doing it. Since getting hit can interrupt your spellcasting at any SR until it’s cast, failure at any point seems explicit. Diegetically, perhaps you can feel yourself starting to lose control though, and only at the moment of casting can you tell if you managed to get it back? That would fit with the depiction in the rules, too.

I’m less sure how to treat casting failure due to being hit. Abort the casting at that SR, and allow the PC to change intent if desired?

And I’m not completely clear on what you do when you fail with a Spirit Magic spell. Fail to open up a connection to the spirits? Fail your concentration? Fail to handle the magical energies? That you retain the MPs perhaps suggests the first?

Edited July 12, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I can’t see where it says that, though:

”This spell repairs damage done to hit points. The part of
the body being healed must be touched. Each point of Heal
repairs 1 hit point in a designated location. The effect is
immediate. If the location is not fully restored, Heal can be
used again in subsequent melee rounds.
Heal cannot raise an adventurer from the dead. However,
2 points of Heal will cauterize any wound or severed limb,
and 6 points of Heal will restore a severed limb to the body
if both parts are available.”

Where’s the ”per round” thing people are talking about? Is it ”subsequent melee rounds”? This is surely just poor phrasing - if the spell could only be cast once per round (unlike essentially every other Spirit Magic spell and standard rules for spellcasting), surely it would say so?

EDIT: Compare with general rule - ”If the caster is unsuccessful, no magic points are expended, and they may try again in the next melee round”. I for one don’t read this as forbidding repeated casting in a round after failure - it’s just dubious writing.

Just passing through - I’d say that the spell description is pretty clear here. It specifically calls out that you may attempt another casting next round if there’s still healing to be done.
 

It doesn’t say you may attempt another casting this round if you have sufficient SR’s. 

Looks intentional to me - One casting per round for Heal.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Looks intentional to me - One casting per round for Heal.

Per caster? Per target? Per limb?

Also, what possible design goal could this accomplish? If you want to limit healing (as RQ2 in fact does), then it should probably be per recipient, and per amount of healing. Not per caster per limb.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Maybe missing something here - but Just looks like one casting of heal per round, and I would assume per caster, no reason in the text I can see  to assume otherwise. The spell description says that in the RAW. Seems clear to me but maybe not the RAI? 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Akhôrahil]

I don’t think it’s even RAW - it seems to be written as a general explanation that you can cast multiple heals, but as so often in the RQG rules, the wording just serves to confuse matters.

For instance: ”If the location is not fully restored, Heal can be used again in subsequent melee rounds.” But what if it is fully restored, does that mean that you’re no longer allowed to cast a Heal on other injured body parts? Surely not, that would be completely absurd. If the body part is fully restored, you should go back to basic rules, which allow casting multiple spells. But what kind of sense does it make if your ability to Heal an arm is dependent on whether you fully healed a leg? And further, by the most precise RAW reading, the text merely allows, rather than forbidding anything, in which case you need to go back to standard rules again. And finally, if you add an actual rules complication, it needs to serve some purpose, and what possible purpose could be served here? It doesn’t actually limit healing in any sensible way, it just adds meaningless complication.
 

I think the much more sensible interpretation is that the rule just says you can keep casting Heal on a limb until it’s fully healed (the way you cannot do with First Aid, for instance). Then it’s just been worded poorly, not taking into account that there are several ways to cast multiple spells in a round. If it wanted to forbid something, it should have said so.

(Also note how it doesn't at all work like suggested in the Starter Set rules, which seem to be some kind of "1.1" ruleset in many cases.)

Edited July 12, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

12 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

No fever, you must have one. read it again...

:0

the question is whether one can cast a heal in one round no matter how many SRs it would take to cast based on the number of MPs... 

 

I would have thought the boosting to over come defensive magic is a separate issue from the main body of the spell description, and should follow the spell boosting rules. Shouldn’t change the fact that if you boost the spell with magic points to over come defensive magic that that could take you into the next round on SR’s - You can’t enhance the healing ability  with boosting. That stays within the limit of the learnt variable spell - Heal 1 , Heal 2 etc 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I would have thought the boosting to over come defensive magic is a separate issue from the main body of the spell description, and should follow the spell boosting rules. Shouldn’t change the fact that if you boost the spell with magic points to over come defensive magic that that could take you into the next round on SR’s - You can’t enhance the healing ability  with boosting. That stays within the limit of the learnt variable spell - Heal 1 , Heal 2 etc 

Agree - this is standard spell timing. It's also theoretically possible to have something silly like a Heal 14 spell that can't be cast in one round, but I have yet to see that in practice (although it could certainly happen with a Heal Wound).

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I would have thought the boosting to over come defensive magic is a separate issue from the main body of the spell description, and should follow the spell boosting rules. Shouldn’t change the fact that if you boost the spell with magic points to over come defensive magic that that could take you into the next round on SR’s - You can’t enhance the healing ability  with boosting. That stays within the limit of the learnt variable spell - Heal 1 , Heal 2 etc 

Agreed Paid a bod yn dwp, as would I... but we were talking extreme outliers (at least I was, most everyone else just ignored that possibility at that point). Zounds!

I had originally asked if healthier folk could tell me if the OP was mistaken and look up the reference that stated one could heal as much damage as one had points worth of spell in ONE MELEE ROUND. I took exception to this and noted that exception and to date only g33k has partially addressed that question by answering if the OP was wrong and by stating that SR costs still applied normally (i.e. more than round could be take by a a slow caster using a powerful heal adding a little movement, and adding a few more boosting MPs to be sure...).

For instance
What if one just had to heal up 11 plus HPs of damage (probably not on an un-enhanced human, obviously) this round or... terrible things happen!

And then there is the almost never used boosting of a powerful heal with many boosted additional MPs to overcome the unconscious merchant’s bought-and-paid-for countermagic spell to add to more than 11 MPs, er 13 with RQ RiG I believe...

 

In all honesty that should finish off this sub-thread and put it to bed quite nicely!

*gak, have we come to having to spell out all possibilities or someone will whine "but if, it was tuesday and the snow was fresh.. ."

Edited July 12, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Scotty]

On 7/12/2022 at 10:05 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Punching through friendly Countermagic (typically in the form of Shield) on a KO’d ally is the obvious use. Since this is expensive, we like to say that this situation is one of the main uses for First Aid (the other is saving MPs more generally).

As it's a touch spell, assume that that Shield is not a problem, unless the situation calls for the ally to die. See MGF page 6.