White Bull Society - looking for information

[Soccercalle]

My PCs will soon meet people associated with the White Bull society in late 1620. I wonder if there is any longer description of the society that is available. I own "King of Sartar" but the information is limited to some mentions.

I know that there is some more information in the no longer available book "Pavis - Gateway to Adventure" but I dont have access to that book. (I can buy it second hand for a shit-load of money and that is to expensive).

[Nick Brooke]

Notes on the White Bull that Jeff Richard posted to Facebook: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/white-bull-notes/

Somewhat related notes on Argrath's New Pavis: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/argraths-new-pavis/

Lots of these people have White Bull connections:

• Impala Tribe leaders: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notable-people-of-the-impala-tribe/
• High Llama Tribe leaders: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notable-people-of-the-high-llama-tribe/
• Sable Tribe leaders: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notable-people-of-the-high-llama-tribe/
• Bison Tribe leaders: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notable-people-of-the-bison-tribe/
• Morokanth Tribe leaders: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notable-people-of-the-morokanth/

Cheers, Nick

[Nick Brooke]

Argrath's life inc. more White Bull details: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/a-short-summary-of-argraths-life-to-1627/

Argrath in Pavis: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/pavis-and-prax-circa-1625-1626/

Argrath's Army (Facebook only): https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/permalink/1772622146247110/

Excellent discussion thread here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/permalink/2159076850934969/

Cheers, Nick

Edited November 3, 2022 by Nick Brooke

[Soccercalle]

Many thanks @Nick Brooke

[Nick Brooke]

My own take on the White Bull cult is more or less set out in Act 7 of Black Spear: it's an apocalyptic movement, led by an obscure spiritual entity that is definitely related to Storm Bull (somehow), whose Illuminated leader takes his fanatical horde of followers away from their traditional role defending Prax against Chaos to throw them into the meat-grinder of his senseless war against the Lunar Empire. Which eventually culminates, as we all know, with him betraying all the gods of Glorantha (the Storm Bull very much included) to Wakboth the Devil. But I'm sure everything is completely above-board and ticketty-boo, and there's absolutely no reason to question anybody's motives or doubt that this is an entirely good thing. (Nods, vigorously). Hail Harshax!

[mfbrandi]

13 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

it's an apocalyptic movement, … whose Illuminated leader takes his … followers away from their traditional role … to throw them into … his senseless war against the Lunar Empire. Which eventually culminates … with him betraying all the gods of Glorantha (the Storm Bull very much included)

Well, I mean, … you would, wouldn’t you? After all, the only good god is an invisible (intangible, inaudible, …, impotent) god, right?

DSIO

Hail Harshax!

[Nick Brooke]

Argrath and the White Bull. Just saying.

[Baron Wulfraed]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Argrath and the White Bull. Just saying.

Presume that image is from some cult of Mithras

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Presume that image is from some cult of Mithras

I view the White Bull more like this:

[svensson]

Aren't the Eleven Lights a Sartarite branch of the White Bull Society as magical adepts?

IIRC I read that in the campaign, but I don't have the book immediately handy.

[svensson]

And to the OP, you an get a D/L of classic RQ2 Pavis and the Big Rubble for $25 US at drivethru.

[mfbrandi]

Were Lionel Bart and company trying to tell us something about the multiple Argraths theory?

Spoiler

Tommy Argrath is a happy sailor, travelling the world, singing his favourite songs with his Wolf Pirate friends. When he visits Spain Pavis, he gets mistaken for a famous bullfighter shaman. Tommy Argrath finishes up in the bull-ring facing a VERY angry bull Lunar Empire and cheered on by the crowd. What will he do now?

So if you got a little bull
Thats a white little bull
It's quite possible
That it might be the bull
Thats the best
In
Spain Prax

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

Aren't the Eleven Lights a Sartarite branch of the White Bull Society as magical adepts?

Part of the Sartar Magical Union, not the White Bull Society.  

[Qizilbashwoman]

11 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Presume that image is from some cult of Mithras

yep. the hats are specifically mithraic, too.

[scott-martin]

22 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Argrath and the White Bull. Just saying.

What is that lady in the red dress doing to that cow daddy

Is she the butcher?

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Is she the butcher?

How Oedipal!

[Nick Brooke]

16 hours ago, scott-martin said:

What is that lady in the red dress doing to that cow daddy

That’s no lady, that’s Prince Argrath, wearing one of the Red Goddess’s outfits. Don’t ask him why, unless you can handle the truth.

[Darius West]

On 11/4/2022 at 2:43 AM, Nick Brooke said:

My own take on the White Bull cult is more or less set out in Act 7 of Black Spear: it's an apocalyptic movement, led by an obscure spiritual entity that is definitely related to Storm Bull (somehow), whose Illuminated leader takes his fanatical horde of followers away from their traditional role defending Prax against Chaos to throw them into the meat-grinder of his senseless war against the Lunar Empire. Which eventually culminates, as we all know, with him betraying all the gods of Glorantha (the Storm Bull very much included) to Wakboth the Devil. But I'm sure everything is completely above-board and ticketty-boo, and there's absolutely no reason to question anybody's motives or doubt that this is an entirely good thing. (Nods, vigorously). Hail Harshax!

Well that's one perspective, but given that the Lunars invaded Prax and tried to enslave all the Founders of the tribes, and the Lunars unequivocally worship chaos, clearly the Stormbulls of Prax are destroying the chaos that threatens them the most by following Argrath.  To call Argrath's war senseless is to ignore the price conquered people pay.  They never want to be conquered again, and who can blame them?  As for Argrath betraying the gods to Wakboth, hmmm, I think Wakboth is still safely under the Block thanks, last anyone checked.  It was Kajabor who is Entropy that the gods banded against to turn him into Time, but Time is still Entropy, so what were the gods saving anyone from?  Time is cosmic horror all on its own.  Now, given the Lunars previously "killed" Orlanth and Ernalda at Whitewall, can we be certain that Argrath's involvement in that HQ was the total destruction you suggest?  Or will the world "get better" like it did after the Long Winter?  I'm betting the latter.  Argrath was saving the gods from the stagnant death they had elected to accept in order to be "Power Slaves" a la Iron Maiden imo.

[Nick Brooke]

Fanatics gonna rant, I suppose. Good luck persuading anybody sane.

[JRE]

I have always thought there are many organizations that cross tribal boundaries that allow Praxians of different tribes to work together. Each one has different aims and enemies, and I am sure the unified betrayal of the Pure Horse Tribe after their decimation by the troll army was engineered by one of those secret societies, probably one specialized in keeping Pentans out, repurposed against the PHT, in a similar way the White bollocks are repurposed by Argrath. They are secret when seen from outside the tribes, but the tribes know and tolerate them.

I would expect the number of White Bull members decreases with the attrition of war and having the best and brightest all the time in Dragon Pass. That may well be a cause for Chaos making a strong return in the Wastes, as the society is no longer doing its job... It may well be linked with the appearance of the Eye of Wakboth and the associated troubles, combined with the resurgent Pentan menace in the North East, and allowing other societies to become more important. 

Argrath, no matter what we may think of him, has shown a strong personal charisma, which means many people who are circunstantial allies become personally devoted to him. I assume that happens also to the core membership of the society that moves to Sartar and becomes part of the New Sartar Army. At this point I expect there will be a growing disconnect between the Society and the tribes, till something new takes its place in Prax.

[Jeff]

A few points:

The Lunar imperial presence in Prax was an existential threat to the Praxian way of life - much as the westward expansion of settlers into the Great Plains endangered the Plains Indians or the settlement of the Russian steppes endangered the steppe nomads. You can sugar-coat it as much as you want, but the Bison and Impala have largely been forced out of Prax into the much harsher Wastelands, and the High Llama have lost their good grazing in the River of Cradles. Even the Morokanth are under pressure. Only the Sable Riders have prospered although they are riven by religious and social strife. And this is after only a little over a dozen years. 

The Lunar presence is basically a repeat of the events of the Second Age, with the added elements of cult hostility. At the end of the day, Waha, Storm Bull, and Orlanth are all hostile towards the Seven Mothers and enemies of the Red Goddess. That's just baked into the cults. So things are a powder keg in Prax.

The White Bull Society is throwing a hand grenade into the powder keg. It is somewhat analogous to the Lakota Ghost Dance. It is a millenarian movement - associated with the Jaldon Goldentooth hero cult, and other cults in Prax. The White Bull is expected to unify the Praxian nations and liberate them from the yoke of the Lunar Empire, bring spirits and gods to fight on their behalf, and triumph over Chaos - and everyone expects the real battles to be in Dragon Pass or even Peloria (as they were in the First Age). The spirit is not obscure - pretty much all Praxians were familiar with it - but nobody expected that an outlander slave would be the one that finds it and allies with it. 

Which gets us to Argrath's role in all of this. He's tied to the White Bull, but is an outlander, and one somehow also linked with the dragons. Like Arkat before him, Argrath embraces contradictions and works with enemies to fight against Gbaji (now called the Red Goddess). You'd think the Lunars would grok him (as in so many ways his story is like that of the Red Goddess herself), but they do no more than the Nysaloreans did Arkat. You can call his war senseless, but to me it is no different than the Red Goddess' wars against the Carmanian Empire. Perhaps the Red Goddess sees the parallels - but her mortal followers sure as heck don't. At least yet. 

So the Praxians follow Argrath into Dragon Pass. They are rewarded with new grasslands, tribute, and unity that they have lacked since the First Age. Who knows how much of the drive into Peloria comes from Argrath, and how much of it comes from the Praxians' own expectations and demands. After all we had Bison Khans in Sylilla and Vanch even in the Third Age, and the Sables know full well that they have a branch on the Hungry Plateau.

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

Well that's one perspective, but … clearly the Stormbulls of Prax are destroying the chaos that threatens them the most by following Argrath.

So here is a fable from real life with the serial numbers lightly filed down (or perhaps it is a universal bed-time story):

Quote

The new big bad and the old big bad knock over the democratically elected government of a proud nation with a long history. These bad actors give power to the self-styled ‘king of kings’ in the fond belief that he will defend their interests. But autocrats will be autocrats: murders of dissenters, secret police, … — you know the drill. There are also reforms — votes for women, increased literacy, economic growth, food for children, crap like that — but some people don’t like the reforms and some don’t think they go far enough. Should the revolutionaries throw their lot in with a nut job whose grammar and prose style they sneer at and who longs for the good old days when men were men feared god and women knew their place? Anyway, they did, and the populace were gifted a fresh set of state-sponsored thugs to beat them down. So now everything is just fine.

The enemy of your enemy is seldom your friend, and if you think they are just a tool to be tossed aside when the job is done, you may find you have another think coming. Sometimes the cure is just as bad as the disease … sometimes it is much worse.

Me? I would be happy to throw the gods into the gobbling jaws of the Devil — especially if, contra current canon, it were Kajabor — but then I don’t see time as a cosmic horror, so clearly I have been staring into the void for too long, and chaos has taken my soul.

Nietzsche warned us to take care when fighting monsters, and I assumed that when Glorantha was populated with roid-raging superheroes head-butting their budgie mirrors to rid the world of cosmic evil that we were being offered a similar warning, but Gloranthaphiles do seem to like to take sides. Perhaps it is all done in fun, but sometimes I wonder.

[mfbrandi]

In trying to chase down something for the Good Shepherd thread (Mithras is doing the rounds at the moment), I stumbled across this, which fits nicely with the White Bull theme:

Quote

Not long ago Alison Griffith [“Mithras, Death, and Redemption in Statius, Thebaid I, 719-20”, Latomus 60, 2001, 108-123] has drawn our attention to the important role of the Moon, the representative of feminine principle, inside the Mysteries of Mithras. The bust of the goddess Luna is a conventional motif of the standard Mithraic tauroctony. In the majority of cases it is situated in the right corner of this cultic scene, usually in the form of a woman’s head adorned with the moon sickle. But according to some interpretations, Luna appears in the polysemous Mithraic symbolism once more, even in a more important role: as a white bull slain by Mithras. This identification could be explained either by the transformation of the old Indo-European myth about the killing of a lunar bull in the Mithraic circles or by the application of astrological rules according to which the Moon gathers the most of his strength when passing through the constellation of Taurus, where the Moon’s “exaltation” occurs. This fact gains further importance, when we realize that Mithras was often identified with the Sun. The sacrifice of the bull then could be seen, at least on one level, as a victory of the Sun over the Moon. On the other hand, it could be considered as an important act of creation and salvation. The whole scene would thus be loaded with an internal tension of great proportions: the power of Mithras to create earthly life and bring salvation depends on his ability to catch, overcome and slay his counterpart – the lunar bull, earthly representative of the feminine moon deity.

Although the astrology won’t work for Glorantha, this could plundered by the “IO is a weapon against the Lunars” crowd, clowns like me who like to see Gloranthan protagonists as fighting themselves, and the “Argrath is an agent/stooge of Lunar Utuma” mob. These may overlap, of course.

—————————————————————————————
More from Griffith on Mithras and the lunar bull here.

Edited November 10, 2022 by mfbrandi
added footnote/link

[Darius West]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:21 PM, Jeff said:

I view the White Bull more like this:

Do the Lunars have a prophecy about:

Sacred animals all.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 11/10/2022 at 9:54 AM, mfbrandi said:

...but then I don’t see time as a cosmic horror...

Chronophobia is actually about the most rational phobia when you seriously start to consider it.  I don't suffer from it, but I sorta think I should, if I were being totally honest.  I mean, time is literally an abstract concept with no absolute physics that is slowly destroying the universe and consuming everything that has meaning.  If someone said "Make me a C'thulhu deity that isn't actually a C'thulhu deity", Time would work too well.