is it possible to create or change a god ? (apotheosis excluded)

[soltakss]

On 11/10/2022 at 1:44 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

but... is there a possibility that an experience is impossible to live?

is the myth (aka what was done before time) frozen, and everything you can do during your heroquest was done during the myth ?

or is it possible to change the myth, to transform the "before time" ? when I say change the myth, I don't say "change what the cult teach, but really what happened ages ago"

In my opinion, you can create a new myth that stands together with the old myth, so both myths are there in God Time.

HeroQuestors can perform either myth, and Initiates can experience either myth in their Holy Day ceremonies.

They way that could happen is that a new version of the cult can be created. As it gains more and more worshippers it can outstrip the original cult and more worshippers experience the new myth than the old myth.

Eventually, the old myth could be forgotten, or only known by a handful of heretics, ready to be rediscovered by HeroQuestors in the future.

However, I don't think that changes the original myth, and definitely does not change history.

 

 

[soltakss]

On 11/11/2022 at 9:04 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

but if I choose Hill of Gold that is because this the quest where I have no question thanks to @soltakss site years ago (I can't put the link on your site, it doesn't respond)

Thanks for the mention.

My Hill of Gold articles should be at http://www.soltakss.com/indexheroquesting.html#HoG.

I plan to redo them for the Jonstown Compendium, probably adding stuff and changing what I have there.

[Bill the barbarian]

16 minutes ago, soltakss said:

My Hill of Gold articles should be at http://www.soltakss.com/indexheroquesting.html#HoG.

 

I love it, looks just like it has always looked. Well, since the 90s anyway. Very sweetly ol' skool! And still chalk (man?) full of Glorantha Greatness!

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 hours ago, soltakss said:

In my opinion, you can create a new myth that stands together with the old myth, so both myths are there in God Time.

this kind of sentence, which was what I understood before,  is the source of my misunderstanding *. 🙂

Jeff's answer is a little bit different, and very much confortable to me

 

What I understand is you mundane people can have any myth you want, you even may fit your experience with the myth you know when you do your heroquest / ceremony / worship. however,  it is only personal or community experience. It is a "projection" from the mundane world. Not what the gods did

 

* note that my english is maybe the source of my misunderstanding  ^^ (but I understood the same from the french material

 

14 hours ago, soltakss said:

HeroQuestors can perform either myth, and Initiates can experience either myth in their Holy Day ceremonies.

They way that could happen is that a new version of the cult can be created. As it gains more and more worshippers it can outstrip the original cult and more worshippers experience the new myth than the old myth.

Eventually, the old myth could be forgotten, or only known by a handful of heretics, ready to be rediscovered by HeroQuestors in the future.

However, I don't think that changes the original myth, and definitely does not change history.

 

yep fully agree

13 hours ago, soltakss said:

Thanks for the mention.

thanks for the text 🙂

13 hours ago, soltakss said:

I plan to redo them for the Jonstown Compendium, probably adding stuff and changing what I have there.

you should, but if you can do two versions I would change your shrine into a little temple !

one with your heroquest rules and one with the official heroquest rules (oups when we will have it 😛 )

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

this kind of sentence, which was what I understood before,  is the source of my misunderstanding *. 🙂

Jeff's answer is a little bit different, and very much confortable to me

I think it is a case of interpretation.

Different people interpret things in different ways, and that is absolutely fine.

What6 I would say is to take whatever works for you at your gaming table and use that. Maybe it will be something I say, maybe something that Jeff says, maybe something that Nick or Drew say, then blend them together to get something that works for you.

For example, I am not a fan of the "Minor magic items are not important on HeroQuests" approach, For me, one thing that makes Adventurers interesting HeroQuestors is that they have access to many minor abilities that can be used on the HeroQuest in inventive ways. The new Chaosium HeroQuesting rules probably won't have this, so I would adapt them to include things that I could see as being useful.

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

you should, but if you can do two versions I would change your shrine into a little temple !

one with your heroquest rules and one with the official heroquest rules (oups when we will have it 😛 )

Oh, don't worry, when the new HeroQuesting rules come out I'll be all over them and will write something that compares and contrasts with my own HeroQuesting ideas.

[JRE]

In the main version of Hill of Gold we know, Yelmalio is ambushed by Orlanth and loses his weapons and armor. Then he fights Zorak Zoran and loses. I would play that if you follow the script (which means fight Zorak Zoran barehanded) you will always lose.

If you "cheat" in any way, such as beat Orlanth so You are armed and armoured, have a companion bring you replacement armor and weapons, use that badass Sunspear you traded (damn illuminates), maybe even uproot a tree and grab a door and use them as pike and shield, then you play the fight. You may still lose, but you may win. But you need to be willing to do something different to win, not just fight in the prescribed way.

If you do not give it all in the fight, I would have Zorak Zoran kill you instead, as you are not worthy of his respect to leave you alive.

[Ali the Helering]

I would always approach this from a RW point of view.

Siddharta Gautama propounded the eternal and unchangeable truths.  Except for those revealed by Mahayana.

The god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is eternal and unchangeable.  Except for the different understandings of the various followers of Jesus of Nazareth, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah, the people of Samaria, the Druze, Reform and Liberal Judaism, you name it.... even Free Presbyterians. 

Of course the deity is eternal and unchangeable, and always has been as WE worship them.  Others are simply wrong.

[French Desperate WindChild]

Just now, Ali the Helering said:

I would always approach this from a RW point of view.

Siddharta Gautama propounded the eternal and unchangeable truths.  Except for those revealed by Mahayana.

The god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is eternal and unchangeable.  Except for the different understandings of the various followers of Jesus of Nazareth, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah, the people of Samaria, the Druze, Reform and Liberal Judaism, you name it.... even Free Presbyterians. 

Of course the deity is eternal and unchangeable, and always has been as WE worship them.  Others are simply wrong.

i dont consider real word for this question

 

with glorantha we have a chance... there are some people we can ask in our world and who are able to say what is the glorantha truth 🙂 (or to say "that is not cover by the background, do what you want, official books will never answer")

 

 

In this post I m not the npc or the pc, I m myself, the one behind his computer

but I agree , when I play a gloranthan worshipper, of course "Others are simply wrong." .

 

 

 

[Ali the Helering]

24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i dont consider real word for this question

Never forget that Greg's work didn't appear out of thin air.  He was a serious student of mythology and anthropology.

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Never forget that Greg's work didn't appear out of thin air.  He was a serious student of mythology and anthropology.

for sure,  and that's a part of the profundity of the background

but I think you don't understand my point

 

the question is only " What are the world rules in glorantha from a irl perspective = not a gloranthan perspective"

it is not "how did real people build this faboulous world" or more challenger  "why did they change this and not that"

i mean the game world is called Glorantha, not Earth, the gods are called Orlanth, Yelm, not irl names

 

 I always think about glorantha as a creation with its own "laws",

of course a part of these laws are based or influenced by irl "laws". But a part are "forks" or even pure "creation" and who I am to say "this must be because irl I know it is like this" (well i don't know a lot irl ...)

 

for example, I have no issue if bison has 5d6 in glorantha and should have 6d8 because irl "it is 6d8"

I have no issue to see a duck or a baboon speaking human languages even if if I know that irl, morphology doesn't allow any structured words

 

so yes i take the illustration "it works in glorantha like it works irl", but not the demonstration "it works in glorantha because it works irl".

I "suffer" to read and write english for glorantha lore, not for earth !  😛

 

 

 

 

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for sure,  and that's a part of the profundity of the background

but I think you don't understand my point

I think I do, but I still think that when it comes to understanding how to pattern religion it is best to use the RW as a model.  Now, I appreciate that I say this as a follower of a religion, but as someone who studies the social anthropology of religion I would say it even if I didn't.

[davecake]

On 11/11/2022 at 11:34 PM, Jeff said:

The only other example that comes close is the use of the Pseudo-Cosmic egg by the Second Council to create a new god - Osentalka the Perfect One. 

And some would say that the God Learners were trying to do something as dramatic with the creation of Zistor, but they failed. 

[davecake]

Changing the events of the God Time is very hard. Reinterpreting the events of the Godtime is much easier. The EWF, in creating Orlanth Dragonfriend, didn’t say that Orlanth didn’t kill Sh’harkazeel the great Dragon, they said that it was an act of Utuma and the dragon wanted it to happen, and Orlanth didn’t sever its head and carry it around as a sign of victory over an enemy, but to show that he was granted dragon power in gratitude. 
If a Yelmalian quested to defeat Zorak Zoran, and said that he had defeated ZZ as Yelmalio should have, he’d just be falling for spiritual hubris and heresy. But if he really wanted his fire powers back, and said that during the Hill of Gold he had lost to ZZ (because fighting Chaos was more important etc), but he had managed to sneak a glimpse of where ZZ hid the fire, and given it out to his followers, and you could challenge one of them to retrieve it back later - well, that might work, but would invite further consequences. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by davecake

[mfbrandi]

57 minutes ago, davecake said:

Reinterpreting the events of the Godtime is much easier … if he really wanted his fire powers back, and … had managed to sneak a glimpse of where ZZ hid the fire

Or this is the “true” story of Y & ZZ on the Hill of Gold …

Spoiler

Zorak Zoran had been burned by cosmic fire when Aether was still enwombed in Darkness (Three Curious Spirits) and had been burning from the inside ever since. That is the true source of Zorak Zoran’s Fire powers. Moving in Darkness circles, ZZ learned to contain his inner Fire — though being crazy uncle ZZ, the control is neither perfect nor constant.

When ZZ ambushed Yelmalio, he did not steal Y’s Fire, he showed Yelmalio how to internalise it — doubtless, some violence seems to be involved, but I wouldn’t overplay that — this strengthened Yelmalio: without it, he would not have survived. Yelmalio is cool to the touch but six times hot as the Sun inside. Yelmalio’s discipline never slips and his flame never bursts out, so he keeps the strength ZZ taught him, and that he never lost his Fire is a deep cult secret. (Most heroquesters will run through the Hill of Gold without understanding what has happened — the above is not common knowledge in the cult.)

If a Yelmalian heroquester succeeds in discovering where Zorak Zoran “hid” their god’s Fire, they will — if they have any sense — let the myth play out as expected. Then the chances of their third eye opening will go right up, and they will certainly bump up a grade or several in the mysteries of the “cold” sun. (HQers who make the discovery but cannot accept it join ZZ’s infamous charcoal zombie phalanx?)

Yelmalio and Zorak Zoran are a perfect interdependent yin–yang pair: the disciplined ostensibly cold Light god and the wild hot Darkness spirit are both on fire. And who can get between Y and Z? They are secret sharers, and they can never tell anyone.

It is clear that ZZ had to act as he did, but as to why he had to — nothing I could say would be as much fun as making up your own answer.

[Darius West]

On 11/11/2022 at 12:44 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

there is something i don't know about the impact of heroquesting in the world

Hi FDWC,

               In terms of making new gods, remember that this is extremely unlikely and undesirable.  Why?  Because it breaks the Great Compromise.  This means that the Gods themselves can interact within Time and end the new god.  

The Red Moon Goddess was an exception because she is a cyclical entity who existed Before Time.

Arkat is also an exception, but mainly because he is the shadow of Nysalor, and was created to be the unreconciled opposite of Nysalor; a form of mystic test for a deity who reconciles opposites.

Zistor's rapid destruction is a good example of what making a new god generally ends up in.

Firshala in the Elder Wilds however represents a "big spirit" who with worship could become an increasingly powerful entity.  I find the idea of a 4th Age Firshalan Empire emerging in Balazar to be humorous.

[John Biles]

We know that in the Great Compromise, part of it was that all pasts were now true (in the mystical world; the physical world only has one past).

That's how you can discover new myths, ie, myths *you did not know about*.