What does it mean to not have Devotion (Deity)

[PhilHibbs]

It's quite possible to come out of character creation without Devotion (Deity).

Pregens with it: Vasana, Yanioth, Sorala, Vostor (has it in the starter set, but not the core rule book), Aranda, Dazarim, Ionara, Mago, Makarios, Varakos.

Pregens without it: Harmast, Vishi Dunn, Nathem, Narres.

Pregens with neither Devotion nor Loyalty (Temple): Vishi Dunn (but he has Loyalty to his mentor).

Devotion and Loyalty (Temple) are pretty important. Rune Priests have to have one or the other at 50% (easy), and rune lords need one at 90%.

Does the pose a problem for Vishi Dunn becoming a priest of Waha? Does his loyalty to his mentor work here, and what happens if his mentor dies?

If you know about this at character creation, then you just take Devotion or Loyalty as an optional passion. Loyalty to a specific temple is a risky choice as you might not be anywhere near that temple. If the campaign moves from Sartar to Pavis, or vice versa, and you have Loyalty to the wrong temple then that could set back your career by years.

Devotion seems to me to be an essential choice at character creation, and if you're not lucky enough to come through family history with it, then definitely take it as a personal choice.

Hm. Issaries doesn't have that option at the Cult step. Interesting. Quite a few of the cults don't have Devotion as an option. Odayla and Yinkin don't have either! So if you don't get it in family background, you're starting off from nowhere (60% for new passions gained during play) on your journey to Rune Lord. (Yinkin has priests instead, my mistake)

Eurmal is fine. I have no problem with them having neither, although Narres has Loyalty to a temple.

Edited November 11, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Richard S.]

There's a very large difference between worshiping a god and fully dedicating yourself to it, and I'm not talking about the difference between laymen and priests. Devotion represents a personal, emotional connection that I've only seen in real life about a dozen or so times. You don't just follow the god's teachings and doctirine - you follow the god itself.

[PhilHibbs]

14 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

There's a very large difference between worshiping a god and fully dedicating yourself to it, and I'm not talking about the difference between laymen and priests.

Sure. Those that don't devote themselves to their god, and aren't fanatically loyal to a temple, can't become Rune Lords. But I would suggest that most adventurers who join cults with Rune Lords would have an eye on that level of promotion at some stage (even if it's something that the player doesn't think that they will actually get as far as doing in play).

14 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Devotion represents a personal, emotional connection that I've only seen in real life about a dozen or so times. 

I've met even fewer actual Rune Lords than you have in real life! (yes, I know you didn't say that, couldn't resist though)

Edited November 11, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Richard S.]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sure. Those that don't devote themselves to their god, and aren't fanatically loyal to a temple, can't become Rune Lords. But I would suggest that most adventurers who join cults with Rune Lords would have an eye on that level of promotion at some stage (even if it's something that the player doesn't think that they will actually get as far as doing in play).

First off, I want to mention that I completely forgot Devotion/Loyalty was now a requirement for Rune Lords. But even if they don't get the passion in character creation, if the player and GM can work together it's not hard to get new passions in play. Hell, if the character is explicitly trying for Rune Lord status, and showing sufficient effort, I might rule that enough to give them the Devotion.

EDIT: Also forgot it's a requirement for Rune Priests too, which decapitates the example I was going to try about how a non-Devoted priest would work. Whoops.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Richard S.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

EDIT: Also forgot it's a requirement for Rune Priests too, which decapitates the example I was going to try about how a non-Devoted priest would work. Whoops.

The priest requirement is trivial, since new passions start at 60% and you only need 50%. Which is a bit daft... 50% means you really have no passion at all, you're as likely to not care as you are to care. I'd make it 75% for priests, or even the same as Rune Lords.

Edited November 11, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[French Desperate WindChild]

my answer may be useless as my house rules impact probably it, so pick what you want if you see something interesting

my general principles :

- gods are sentient and "passionate"

- gods may interact with the world even without mundane trigger (dream, call , any communication, reprisals, ... ), in all cases a little bit and only with their worshippers or around them

- people may be initiate even without "call of the gods" : after all there is no requirement to be initiated to your parent's gods . So initiates may be "chosen" or not

 

then inititate may have devotion or not. Like irl, you may belong to a cult even without faith, even without belief. There is a difference in glorantha, everyone "knows" and "experiments" the god existence. Any initiate feels during initiation the god presence.

So the devotion doesn't mean you believe, the devotion means how much you are able to welcome (during ceremony, quest...) or to act for your god interests even against your own interests (that may explain the Issaries aspect).

And of course more devoted you are, more your god appreciate you and can act for you.

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

If your character is in a cult with Rune Lords, you almost certainly want them to become one.  And if you neglect to start them with a decent Devotion, you are basically screwed.  We ended up fudging this for some of the characters. 

Same for CHA.  If you are on a Rune Lord path, better start at 14ish or higher.

Would be nice to have advice like this somewhere.  Without descending into egregious munchkinnery ...

 

[Andrew M]

Given that most people in Glorantha are not so dedicated to their gods that they give up POW to the god(mist are laymembers) and that during the great sacred ceremonies of their god people experience contact with their God and his world I would expect pretty much all initiates to have Devotion(God) maybe less laymembers but many of them.

The Gods in Glorantha are real and you have a personnal connection to them, further in most cultures the gods are the role models of society so a devotion to them is something that makes sense in every day life. 

This is seperate to the game mechanic priority to have such a devotion. I have a game starting on Monday and I noticed yesterday one of the pc's lacked a devotion(Yinkin) so I have put one on his character sheet so we remember to discuss it at the start of the campaign

[Akhôrahil]

If anything, the loyalty to a temple should probably be more emphasized, as every Priest or Rune Lord will at least initially get the position in a temple. Just imagine the interview:

”Right, so you’re going to perform your duties in loyalty to the temple?”

”I serve only my god!”

”Er…”

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If anything, the loyalty to a temple should probably be more emphasized, as every Priest or Rune Lord will at least initially get the position in a temple. Just imagine the interview:

”Right, so you’re going to perform your duties in loyalty to the temple?”

”I serve only my god!”

”Er…”

That might be the case if the other senior rune levels also are highly temple-oriented rather than devoted. You could just as easily construct the narrative the other way around.

"Right, so you're going to perform your duties in devoted service to our god?"

"No, I'm going be worldly and political!"

"Er..."

[Akhôrahil]

”In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals that the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.”

—Jerry Pournelle, ’The Iron Law of Bureaucracy’

 

But yeah, it probably depends on where you draw the line for Devotion. Is it something most Initiates have, or is it a case of ”wow, that guy is really devoted!”

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

”In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals that the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.”

—Jerry Pournelle, ’The Iron Law of Bureaucracy’

On the one hand, that's true. On the other hand, it might not apply in a magical world. On the gripping hand, Glorantha to some extent "really is how ancient peoples thought the world worked", and if the mundane ancient world was riddled with self-serving bureaucracy, then maybe the magical world should be too. But maybe for different reasons.

Edited November 11, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

On the one hand, that's true. On the other hand, it might not apply in a magical world. On the gripping hand, Glorantha to some extent "really is how ancient peoples thought the world worked", and if the mundane ancient world was riddled with self-serving bureaucracy, then maybe the magical world should be too. But maybe for different reasons.

Spirits of Reprisal and the like probably ensure that a certain standard is maintained, at least. You probably don't get the pornocracy (unless the god is into that).

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

That might be the case if the other senior rune levels also are highly temple-oriented rather than devoted. You could just as easily construct the narrative the other way around.

"Right, so you're going to perform your duties in devoted service to our god?"

"No, I'm going be worldly and political!"

"Er..."

there are so many reasons to see this situation, "true devotion", "senior priest's bloodline conflict", "senior priest competion", "senior priest's wife/husband love"

that's why I like to imagine npc even in the top cult hierarchy as sometimes "holy and devoted" and sometimes "devoted to their own ambition (or other passion)".

 

[soltakss]

An Initiate of a deity should be able to have Devotion (Deity). As a GM I'd give it to them as a freebie.

[JRE]

As there is no clear way to stop being an initiate, you may have devotion once, but life may have made you lose it (Orlanth's death may have caused that in many orlanthi, as who says it cannot happen again). So an initiate may still go through the motions and even keep their magic, while being unsatisfied with the god and the hierarchy.

I have always liked that the rules, even if not specific except in some fiction, allow career priests to be powerful without being devoted or fanatical about the god. It fits with the transactional view of Rune magic, and allows outsider heroes such as the PCs be devoted and still have plenty of troubles with the cult hierarchy, which is MGF for me.

Personally I thing the 50% requirement for priests is a wink in this direction as well. Rune Lords have that 10 DI, which for me is reason enough to go for the 90% Devotion, as if you are expected to get frequent DI, devotion would be a given, rather than Loyalty (Temple).

[Akhôrahil]

39 minutes ago, JRE said:

I have always liked that the rules, even if not specific except in some fiction, allow career priests to be powerful without being devoted or fanatical about the god. It fits with the transactional view of Rune magic, and allows outsider heroes such as the PCs be devoted and still have plenty of troubles with the cult hierarchy, which is MGF for me.

Agree. I interpret Devotion as being merely about your emotional state - your god doesn’t care about your amount of Devotion, he/she cares about actions, your spiritual POWer, and your emulation of the god (represented, I would say, by your amount of Rune Points).

The requirement for Loyalty(Temple) or Devotion is likely worldly and practical - no-one’s going to make you a priest unless you’re either personally holy or in good standing with the temple. If you don’t have either but manage to blackmail your way into it or something, I don’t think your god is bothered (as long as you do the job).

Edited November 14, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:34 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Does the pose a problem for Vishi Dunn becoming a priest of Waha? Does his loyalty to his mentor work here, and what happens if his mentor dies?

I'd just like to point out that that would be a dick move by the GM. Unless the player goes out of their way to bring their mentor into play and deliberately gets them into a dangerous situation, this should never happen!

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'd just like to point out that that would be a dick move by the GM. Unless the player goes out of their way to bring their mentor into play and deliberately gets them into a dangerous situation, this should never happen!

I think it make sense to force the PC to pick up the passion, though - Loyalty(Temple) shouldn’t be overly hard to come by. Do a job for them.

Deliberately just offing the mentor to mess with the player seems harsh, but adding the mentor as a possible Target on the roll of Death in yearly events could be fair. They’re not immortal.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it make sense to force the PC to pick up the passion, though - Loyalty(Temple) shouldn’t be overly hard to come by. Do a job for them.

Well, this is one of the reasons that Devotion is in my opinion the far better choice. It's hard to pick up a passion for your temple when you're an outcast from your homeland.

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well, this is one of the reasons that Devotion is in my opinion the far better choice. It's hard to pick up a passion for your temple when you're an outcast from your homeland.

Isn’t it also going to be hard to become a priest in that situation?

[PhilHibbs]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Isn’t it also going to be hard to become a priest in that situation?

Vasana's Saga ignored the problem of no Devotion and no Loyalty (Temple). Maybe they assumed that Loyalty (Mentor) works instead. Or they just don't mention that he picked up a Devotion (Waha) passion at 60% at some point. But in that saga, Vishi just goes to Pavis, meets up with her, travels with Argrath's army, and initiates on the journey at a sacred site in northern Prax. We're planning something similar.

There is also the problem of giving enough POW to your fetch to have it be useful, whilst retaining the 18 POW requirement for priest. Vishi does NOT do this, he goes below the minimum. Scotty in the Q&A said that this means he's not a priest until he gets his POW back up. So I guess you don't need to qualify for priest to become a shaman of Waha. If you become a shaman, and you qualify for priest, they you're a priest of Waha. Otherwise you're just an initiate who is also a shaman.

Edited November 14, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Andrew M]

I have a character in my campaign who I expect to become a Shaman and a priest, my advice to them is going to be to become a Shaman first, then build up their POW before becominga priest. I see this character needing a LOT of POW gain rolls.

I have also madesure they have appropriate Devotion skills. In Sartar for an Orlanthi or Ernaldan I may allow loyalty Clan to replace loyalty temple as in many respects the tribal leadership structure is also a temple structure and similar for other cults were a social structure also defines the religous structure (Humakt and the Regiment, Waha and the Tribe, Kygor Lytor and the Clan)

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Andrew M said:

I have also madesure they have appropriate Devotion skills. In Sartar for an Orlanthi or Ernaldan I may allow loyalty Clan to replace loyalty temple as in many respects the tribal leadership structure is also a temple structure

I agree with this - I don’t typically run separate Loyalties for mere Orlanth & Ernalda Clan temples. That’s just clan business.

[Ali the Helering]

Sometimes in the ancient and early medieval RW a priesthood could be inherited, without personal devotion.  You simply went through the motions of ritual at the required times.