Home Brew Rule for the Sleep spell

[Mossmac]

Spirit Magic

Sleep
3 Points
Ranged, Temporal
If the caster overcomes the target’s POW, the target falls into a deep sleep for the duration of the spell. The target only awakens if injured or if a hostile spell is targeted on them.

A standing target effected by the sleep spell will immediately collapse in a ‘faint’ dropping any hand held objects.
The character suffer 1d4-1 damage to a random location rolled on 1d8 +12.
Armour does not save from this damage although magical protection will.

Characters next to the target can attempt to ‘catch’ a fainting target by rolling DEX x 5 followed by a STR vs SIZ test to lay the target down without risk of injury and therefore not waking them.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Mossmac

[David Scott]

As it's a Chalana Arroy spell only, If standing, I describe the target slumping down slowly as if going to sleep, so they don't injure themselves (no extra rules needed). 

Edited April 1, 2023 by David Scott
better wording...

[soltakss]

8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

As it's a Chalana Arroy spell only, If standing, I always have the target slump down slowly as if going to sleep, so they don't injure themselves (no extra rules needed). 

Yes I agree.

Otherwise you are in Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics* territory - "I cannot hurt anyone, as a Chalana Arroy cultist, so I cast Sleep, as Sleep does not hurt the target. If, however, the target falls over and hurts themselves, that is not a result of the Sleep spell, so I am not responsible for it".

*

Spoiler

First Law: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

I cannot drop a heavy weight onto a human below me, as my action would allow a human being to come to harm.

Amended First Law: A robot may not injure a human being or allow a human being to come to harm.

I cannot drop a heavy weight onto a human below me, as my action would allow a human being to come to harm.

However, I know that my reflexes are fast enough that I can catch a falling weight to prevent it from harming the human.

So, I can drop the weight, knowing that I can catch it and not harm the human below.

But, once I have dropped the weight, it is no longer under my control, so I can remain inactive and not catch the weight, thus causing the human harm.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

IF the slept target is injured by falling down, does he then wake up in accord with the last sentence of the first paragraph?  

Given the 1d4-1 roll,  that gives a 75% chance that the target is injured and wakes up in the same melee round as the spell is cast. In that case the actual effect is to lose the actions intended for the MR and to lose 5 SR fir getting back up, maybe another 5 SR picking up a weapon again.  

To me this nerfs the spell.

Interestingly, as written protective magic like Shield will reduce that 75% chance, making it the opposite of protective.

So is it the intent of the house rule to nerf an annoying Chalana Arroy?

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Mossmac]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

As it's a Chalana Arroy spell only, If standing, I always have the target slump down slowly as if going to sleep, so they don't injure themselves (no extra rules needed). 

You realise you have written your own extra rule above here?! 😂

Which is cool, whatever your play group works with best. 😉

[HreshtIronBorne]

David Scott happens to be connected to the dev/writing team somehow beyond my comprehension.

 

The restriction on Sleep being available only to Chalana Arroy has been in the rules since RQ2/3. I am not sure whether it is cited in the RQG books or not. 

[g33k]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:35 AM, Mossmac said:

You realise you have written your own extra rule above here?! 😂

Which is cool, whatever your play group works with best. 😉

Since it is a CA-only spell, and CA's are prohibited from harming anyone... any understanding of the spell that presumes Sleep could routinely cause damage (and needs extra House Rules to avoid it) is clearly an erroneous understanding of the rules.

No "rules" here are necessary.

@David Scott provides a narrative understanding of how they play it, if someone presumes (or argues) that
   [Sleep spell] == [sudden unconsciousness, and a (likely-injurious) fall]

I mean, there's some risky corner-cases... if Sleep were cast upon someone who is (for example) climbing a sheer cliff, they'd clearly fall; that'd be a severe error on the part of the CA cultist, but it'd be an oddity not the usual case; and it'd be on them as an error and a violation of the oaths.

The "CA-only" nature of Sleep (and  previously Befuddle, as an in-world historical artifact that CA let out of their hands (and regretted, so they don't do it with Sleep)) is afaik missing from the RQG rules (I consider these omissions errors by the Chaosium dev-team).

 

However, if your group / your table feels they need (or prefer) this House Rule, there's no reason you can't implement it.

Edited April 2, 2023 by g33k

[Jason Farrell]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Since it is a CA-only spell, and CA's are prohibited from harming anyone... any understanding of the spell that presumes Sleep could routinely cause damage (and needs extra House Rules to avoid it) is clearly an erroneous understanding of the rules.

I mean, there's some risky corner-cases... if Sleep were cast upon someone who is (for example) climbing a sheer cliff, they'd cl

That's not a corner case, it's just a natural extension of the concern any Chalana Arroy cultist would have to have in casting this spell:  would the person, having fallen asleep, be put in physical risk by that act.

If the spell causes someone to slump harmlessly to the ground, then surely that's part of the magical effect?  Because if I'm standing upright and go instantly unconscious, I'm going to fall like a rock.  So would you.

So I think the OP's rule makes perfect sense, and it also make it so (very logically, imo) a Chalana Arroy cultist would need to be careful in their application of the spell, in a similar way to how they are generally careful to avoid violence.  It doesn't make putting people to sleep pointless; there are many ways in which the spell could be safely applied.

[Bren]

Tossing Sleep at a swimmer would be another problem area.

[Shiningbrow]

Why not just presume that Chalana Arroy's magic and power are sufficient to be able to ensure a standing target merely slumps to the ground, and not falls to take damage?

I mean, we don't always presume real world physics for other situations, do we? So, this is idea perfectly consistent within the game world.

[Jason Farrell]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why not just presume that Chalana Arroy's magic and power are sufficient to be able to ensure a standing target merely slumps to the ground, and not falls to take damage?

I mean, we don't always presume real world physics for other situations, do we? So, this is idea perfectly consistent within the game world.

The inconsistent part is assuming her power is sufficient to avoid injury to a standing target, but not to do anything about someone climbing a rock face or swimming in a river.   Or how about someone standing on top of a harmful substance?  There are too many situations in which you'd have to rule that the priestess would have to exercise caution anyway, so they may as well need to for every situation.

[Shiningbrow]

13 minutes ago, Jason Farrell said:

The inconsistent part is assuming her power is sufficient to avoid injury to a standing target, but not to do anything about someone climbing a rock face or swimming in a river.   Or how about someone standing on top of a harmful substance?  There are too many situations in which you'd have to rule that the priestess would have to exercise caution anyway, so they may as well need to for every situation.

Not really. Slumping is a fairly natural occurrence, well within the body's motions.

The other situations are not.

It also goes with the idea that she could control the body's motions, but not be cognizant of the situation in which it occurs. So, the target would slump into the harmful substance, and slump off the cliff (perhaps to their death).

Edited April 2, 2023 by Shiningbrow

[hipsterinspace]

I would imagine the Sleep spell begins with the target being overcome with a powerful hypnagogic state where they would like more than anything to lie down and curl into a fetal position before drifting off to sleep. Chalana Arroy would not be the source of something that routinely harms people from negligence, to me that’s not MGF and would unnecessarily and additionally punish someone for choosing to accept the already very strict limitations of Chalana Arroy’s cult for their PC.

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, Bren said:

Tossing Sleep at a swimmer would be another problem area.

Which is why they wouldn't do it.

23 hours ago, Mossmac said:

A standing target effected by the sleep spell will immediately collapse in a ‘faint’ dropping any hand held objects.
The character suffer 1d4-1 damage to a random location rolled on 1d8 +12.
Armour does not save from this damage although magical protection will.

Characters next to the target can attempt to ‘catch’ a fainting target by rolling DEX x 5 followed by a STR vs SIZ test to lay the target down without risk of injury and therefore not waking them.

The problem with the house rule is that it often causes harm, or injury, to the target of the spell, so Chalana Arroy cultists would not cast the spell for fear of causing injury.

So, basically it makes the spell useless.

Edited April 2, 2023 by soltakss

[g33k]

On 4/1/2023 at 3:58 AM, Mossmac said:

... Characters next to the target can attempt to ‘catch’ a fainting target by rolling DEX x 5 followed by a STR vs SIZ test to lay the target down without risk of injury and therefore not waking them.

On 4/2/2023 at 3:07 AM, soltakss said:

... The problem with the house rule is that it often causes harm, or injury, to the target of the spell, so Chalana Arroy cultists would not cast the spell for fear of causing injury.

So, basically it makes the spell useless.

Yeah, that's TWO stat-rolls.  Even a very-good DEX of 15 still only gets a CHANCE to make the STR-v-SIZ roll 3/4 of the time... and then the STR-v-SIZ is about a 40% (statistically, across many targets:  STR=3d6=avg10.5 but SIZ=2d6+6=avg13).  So the total odds of "success" are worse than 1 in 3 for the CA cultist !

Plus they face the  circumstantial  limit:  they either need to (A) be standing right next to the (presumably-hostile) target, to make the stat-rolls; or they need (B) a 3rd party "on standby" to catch the (presumably-hostile) target; or (C) the target needs to already be safely-prone 

Remember -- according to the designers, a CA cultist cannot even take shield-training to make Parry rolls (in defense of self and others) in case of the Fumble-risk causing a "damage someone" result.  By that standard, Sleep should be equally-forbidden.

Edited April 4, 2023 by g33k

[g33k]

8 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I would imagine the Sleep spell begins with the target being overcome with a powerful hypnagogic state where they would like more than anything to lie down and curl into a fetal position before drifting off to sleep...

☝️This☝️
Like when you're drifting off to sleep, and think you maybe remember there was  something  you were going to do before sleeping -- but cannot quite remember what -- and decide  whatever-it-was  can wait 'til after you finish sleeping.

That state hits while the target is still upright.  Eyes droop, head nods, all they can see (or think about) is the chance to sleep.

 

And  👇this👇  too:

8 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

... Chalana Arroy would not be the source of something that routinely harms people from negligence, to me that’s not MGF and would unnecessarily and additionally punish someone for choosing to accept the already very strict limitations of Chalana Arroy’s cult for their PC.

 

[Bren]

8 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I would imagine the Sleep spell begins with the target being overcome with a powerful hypnagogic state where they would like more than anything to lie down and curl into a fetal position before drifting off to sleep.

I like the idea that the target says something like, "So sleepy..." as they lie down and curl up for sleep. If this was in a movie the scene would be funny and would easily let the audience know what just happened and that the victim was asleep, not dead. Neither are bad side effects in an RPG session.

As far as the fictional plausibility of people falling unconscious without being injured by the fall to the ground, we have just about every action movie or science fiction franchise ever as precedent. Nobody in a noir detective story breaks their nose or sprains their wrist when the fall down after being sapped or hit with a gun barrel* and nobody in Star Trek or Star Wars gets stunned and then breaks their arm while falling to the ground.

 

* Not to mention the infrequency of any actual brain damage from repeated closed head trauma for the likes of Sam Spade or Philip Marlowe.

[g33k]

6 minutes ago, Bren said:

... and nobody in Star Trek or Star Wars gets stunned and then breaks their arm while falling to the ground.

If we judge by Carrie Fisher, people are actually  graceful  as they go down from a Star Wars stun-bolt.

[Jason Farrell]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Not really. Slumping is a fairly natural occurrence, well within the body's motions.

The other situations are not.

It also goes with the idea that she could control the body's motions, but not be cognizant of the situation in which it occurs. So, the target would slump into the harmful substance, and slump off the cliff (perhaps to their death).

Slumping happens because when people lose consciousness, they often lose it gradually.  When my uncle passed out from lack of food years ago and shattered his jaw on the sidewalk pavement, it was because he went from conscious to unconscious instantaneously.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Jason Farrell

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Jason Farrell said:

When my uncle passed out from lack of food years ago and shattered his jaw on the sidewalk pavement, it was because he went from conscious to unconscious instantaneously.

Again, if that could happen with the Sleep spell, no Chalana Arroy Cultist would use it.

[Enthar]

As a side question, would not anyone with Chalana Arroy as an associated cult have access to Sleep- along with any other Spirit magic spells?

 

Page 73 RQG: Under Cult Spirit Magic.

"An initiate can start with spirit magic spells taught by an associated cult."

[Shiningbrow]

18 minutes ago, Enthar said:

As a side question, would not anyone with Chalana Arroy as an associated cult have access to Sleep- along with any other Spirit magic spells?

 

Page 73 RQG: Under Cult Spirit Magic.

"An initiate can start with spirit magic spells taught by an associated cult."

No.

It's still a cult secret.

The above quote refers to the idea in the general, not the specific. And, unfortunately, such secrets weren't part of the thinking for newcomers when it was published.

However, RBoM clarifies this on p107.

[Enthar]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

No.

It's still a cult secret.

The above quote refers to the idea in the general, not the specific. And, unfortunately, such secrets weren't part of the thinking for newcomers when it was published.

However, RBoM clarifies this on p107.

Appreciate the reference!  This was not at all clear in the base RQG book!

Is there a lot like this, which relies on decades of tribal knowledge to have any idea that it exists?  I suppose that is more a separate topic, but it is pretty intimidating to run into fairly key concepts like this 3-4 months into my campaign.

[Shiningbrow]

3 minutes ago, Enthar said:

Appreciate the reference!  This was not at all clear in the base RQG book!

Is there a lot like this, which relies on decades of tribal knowledge to have any idea that it exists?  I suppose that is more a separate topic, but it is pretty intimidating to run into fairly key concepts like this 3-4 months into my campaign.

Actually, even though I've been a fan of RQ for decades, and have all editions, some things are still new (to me).

RBoM lists 14 such spells, but also says that there are more (it's a "partial list"), which is probably to give GMs some ways to introduce their own spells.

However, only a couple of those 14 appear in the RQG spell list (Lantern & Sleep). So, you're fine with making everything else available, more or less.

Also remember, shamans can still find spirits and force them to teach even the cult secret spells.

[Mossmac]

On 4/2/2023 at 7:37 PM, soltakss said:

Which is why they wouldn't do it.

The problem with the house rule is that it often causes harm, or injury, to the target of the spell, so Chalana Arroy cultists would not cast the spell for fear of causing injury.

So, basically it makes the spell useless.

"Oh Blessed one, the pain is unbearable, I lie awake at night, I get no rest, I am going mad with the lack of peace!..."

"Rest oh child, lie back and let the blessings of the white healer bring calm to your spirit..."

 

but then that would be role play.....😉

Edited April 3, 2023 by Mossmac