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Posted

I know this is probably a stupid question, because the answer is almost in the name of the topic, but...

Are clan chiefs in Orlanthi lands (and especially Sartar) always members of the Orlanth cult (or Vinga)? And by that I mean rune levels (at least priests).

I think the answer is yes, but a little piece of me wonders whether exceptions are possible and it's an Orlanthi 'all' when we say all leaders are followers of Orlanth. Might we see Ernaldan chiefs or even Tribal queens? Obviously we have Ernaldan Queens in Esrolia, but what about at the clan level?  And what about in Sartar?

If we do have Ernaldan clan chiefs in Sartar (or other Orlanthi lands), do they have to also initiate to Orlanth (or Vinga) on taking up the leadership?  Could we find an Ernaldan (or even something exotic like a Babeester Gor) chief?

If so, just how common are these exceptions? The 15% that isn't the Orlanthi 'all'? More common? Less common?

The most extensive source I can find is Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes, but I know its state is questionable. On p.212 it has that a chieftain "must be initiated into the clan secrets of Orlanth". Read literally that does not require rune level membership (and yes, I know it was written for HQ, not RQ). On p.215 it has details of traditional and lightbringer rings, both noting "Orlanth the Chief" as the chief's position but not saying anything about requirements.  To me it could be taken as meaning that an Ernaldan (or other Earth cult) priestess, initiated into Vinga, could be clan chief (as an example).

In summary, does a Sartar (or other Orlanthi lands) clan chief have to be a rune level of Orlanth?  If not, what sort of percentage is the exception? Is initiation in to Orlanth(/Vinga) required?

Posted (edited)

I suspect it is typical but not required. The chief of the Enhyli clan of the Colymar is said to always be an Elmal initiate, while many in the Torkani tribe are led by Argan Argar chiefs. In the HeroQuest publication The Coming Storm, the Red Cow's rivals within the Cinsina tribe, the Dolutha clan, are led by an Elmal chief, though I suspect this is probably no longer the case in the current material. In the same book the Emerald Sword of the Dinacoli tribe are led by a chief who is an initiate of the Seven Mothers.

Edited by hipsterinspace
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Posted

To continue the list the Malani tribe has a long tradition of Humakti kings. And there are definitely peace clans that have Ernaldan ruling queens.

As I understand it when you become king of a clan or tribe you initiate into the clan/tribe making mysteries of Orlanth Rex. So you need to follow a friendly or at least neutral cult but you do not need to be Orlanth/Vinga specifically. Even though that is the most common.

Posted

One exception is the Telmori, who follow Telmor not Orlanth and Ernalda.

One thing I think RQ;G rules are a bit unclear on is the mechanical integration of clans into the game rules. The setting is based on the vision of clans following the multi-diety Orlanthi religion you see in King of Dragon Pass and Hero Wars. The introductory section talks about clans as kinship groups, using real-world anthroplogy terms.  But the actual rune magic rules are mostly taken straight from earlier editions, where the RQ2 writeup of Orlanth doesn't mention clans at all. Cults of Prax does, but only in the context of Waha ('Orlanth adventurous cannot have any major seats of power on a waha tribal council').

I think this leaves some people thinking the Orlanthi practice separation of church and state, with parallel cult and clan hierarchies.

Wheras as I understand it, a clan is essentially a religious organisation. It encompasses:

- 1 to 3 small temples (normally just Orlanth and Ernalda, occasionally one other)

- 0 to 5 shrines (normally to Orlanth's brothers and Ernalda's kin)

- 0 to 3 organised relationships with larger organisations (tribe, city federation, kingdom)

A clan has a single wyter, as it is a single community.  Temple wyters are more common in a city, where strangers can pass each other on the street without acknowledgement or challenge.

These are coordinated by a self-selecting 7 member Ring, and normally led by a chieftain who is strictly first-amongst equals. It would be possible for an initiate or priest of any clan cult to be the chieftan. But if a suitable rune lord was available and willing to take the position, the position of any current chieftan of lower cult rank  would be very precarious, and they would likely just quit before they were pushed.

it is common for the single most influential ring member to be the senior priestess of ernalda; it is less common for them to be dominant enough to appoint whoever they want as war leader, and openly claim the title of chief.

i think it is possible, if unusual, for a clan to be led by a king, where he[1] invokes the powers of Orlanth Rex to rule by right, and select his own ring. But that is usually reserved for higher levels of organisation.

Initiation into a clan is normally by a hazardous adulthood ordeal which culminates in successful candidates ending up in Orlanth and Ernalda's Hall on the God plane. Men and women get there by different routes, but it is the same hall. Adoption into the clan involves a test equivalent to the standard cult initiation rules. Becoming a member by marriage requires a hardly-ever-dangerous ritual.

Within the context of the clan, all locally-worshipped deities are associated, even if they are not elsewhere. So initiation into a clan provides access to the magic of all temples and shrines (subject to the usual gender role restrictions). Most people attend most ceremonies. Clan initiates who make their worship roles find themselves in orlanth and ernalda's hall, in a pre-time  Age corresponding to the day and season. There, they may meet, and learn from any deity residing or visiting there. Visiting dieties may say 'if you want to know more, come see me at my own home'. This would be the cue for an clan-supported apprenticeship in a city-based cult hospital, library or regiment.

In this way, someone can be initiated to an Orlanthi clan and worship Chalana Arroy or Yelmalio[2].

[1] including vingan versions of 'he'.

[2] though they would probably accept other people using his Sartarite name,  'Elmal'.

 

Posted
9 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I know this is probably a stupid question, because the answer is almost in the name of the topic, but...

Are clan chiefs in Orlanthi lands (and especially Sartar) always members of the Orlanth cult (or Vinga)?

They need to be members of Orlanth Rex, or Vinga Rex.

9 hours ago, DrGoth said:

And by that I mean rune levels (at least priests).

No, they do not need to be Rune Levels, they could just be Lay Members, in theory. Look at the section in the Cult Compendium p323 (Also Cults of Terror)

Quote

“He is just, too,” I added, for I wished to alay Ketil’s mind at ease as best I could. “And pious.”
Orlanth ordered his worshippers have five virtues. Oddi had all.
But Ketil grimaced. “Yes, he is just, and he pays his tithes.”
Poor Ketil, Oddi had shown no interest in more than cursory membership in Orlanth. 

So, Oddi the Keen was a Storm Bull cultist, a Storm Khan, but he joined Orlanth, presumably, when he became King of the Bilini, but was clearly not a Rune Level. Now, this is Bilini, which is a long way away from Sartar, but I think the principle still stands.

 

 

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Posted
Keep in mind what a clan is - its an extended kinship group normally with a thousand or so people. The chieftain is the leader/protector of the clan. The title literally means “most important” or “big man.” The violent ethic of the Orlanthi lifestyle makes the chieftain a de facto warrior. He must also be just, to balance the many needs of his people; and strong, to represent them to the outside world. There is no gender requirement, but even if female, the chieftain is referred to as a “he”. He has the responsibility of being spokesperson and decision-maker for all members, especially in times of emergency. His success as community leader depends upon the support of the council and the folk, both of whom have separate methods of removing him from office, should the need arise. The clan chieftain serves as the speaker to the clan’s magical guardian or “wyter” and the recipient of the immense benefits and power that the community spirit may give.

Because of the importance of the Orlanth cult among the Orlanthi, the clan leader needs to have been an initiate of Orlanth for at least a year. Orlanth, not Orlanth Rex (they might be a lay member of Orlanth Rex as well or even a temporary initiate, but that is a tribal matter). 

If there is more than one candidate among the kin, then they have to prove their skills against each other in the Chief Tests.

 

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Because of the importance of the Orlanth cult among the Orlanthi, the clan leader needs to have been an initiate of Orlanth for at least a year.

 

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

There is no gender requirement

to clarify something I m not sure, If I am an ernaldan woman priestess and want to become the clan leader, I must be an initiate of Orlanth one year before I try (and of course succeed I m the best)

However does that means I need to join a specific subcult of Orlanth (Vinga or Rex because my aunt can offer me some opportunities blablabla) or anything is fine (Thunderous, Adventurous but not Vinga, Odayla, Yinkin etc..)

Posted
9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Because of the importance of the Orlanth cult among the Orlanthi, the clan leader needs to have been an initiate of Orlanth for at least a year.

Does this also apply to the Enhyli, who in the GM Adventures book are stated to have Elmal chiefs, or the Torkani who worship Argan Argar as their primary men’s god, or are they the exception that proves the rule?

Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

to clarify something I m not sure, If I am an ernaldan woman priestess and want to become the clan leader, I must be an initiate of Orlanth one year before I try (and of course succeed I m the best)

However does that means I need to join a specific subcult of Orlanth (Vinga or Rex because my aunt can offer me some opportunities blablabla) or anything is fine (Thunderous, Adventurous but not Vinga, Odayla, Yinkin etc..)

I'm particularly interested in this one. I'm guessing that Jeff's statement "makes the chieftain a de facto warrior" can be interpreted broadly as being able to be effective one on one in a fight. Some Ernaldans at least will be able to do that, especially with a little bit of Orlanth/Vinga magic to add to the mix.  Earth Elementals are pretty scary. Earthpower and Absorbtion definitely help in a fight. BG gives Earth Shield.  So a little bit of things like Lighning or Thuderbolt and you have a pretty effective set.  

I'd like to think someone is an Ernaldan priestess and Vinga initiate could be successful as a chief.

Edited by DrGoth
Posted

I'd imagine that 90% of the time, if a senior Ernalda priestess wants formal control of a clan, she casts 'bless champion' on the fittest and dumbest available young man.

Plenty of cults can fight, so a test of orlanthi prowess is going to involve some things other's can't do. You can create a classic pentathlon of something like:

- drinking a horn of ale

- ploughing a field 

- climbing a mountain 

- firing off a visible signal

- boasting of your prowess to the assembled wives of the clan

It's not _specifially_ set up so that only those with fly and lightning spells, under the influence of bless champion, are going to stand a chance. But doing things any other way is going to require either exotic magic, or cheating.

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Posted

I am also unsure of what is in a chief test.  Jeff"s post above is the first I heard of a chief test: I had thought it was just politics since the Ring members will have typically known each other all their lives.  I take it from Jeff's " if" that the Ring is probably the nominating committee and a test is only needed if they are divided and propose two nominees.

But if I am going to make up a test,

[1] It is not going to include a duel.  The purpose is not for Ring members to kill each other off.

[2] it should be a plain test of the Orlanthi virtues, done seriatim.

[3] I currently have no opinion about who judges.. One Ring member, as the Lawspeaker for justice?  The whole ring?  All the clan's adults?

Posted (edited)

According to the Glorantha Sourcebook p. 112, Orlanth's virtues are Couage, Wisdom, Generosity, Justice, Honor, and Piety.

I am not sure how you test some of these with an unambiguous result.  Some like Honor don't seem susceptible to a test situation.  For example Honor is what you do when no one is saying "it's a test."  I see a similar problem for Generosity: It's what you do when people are not saying " give this and you will get to be clan chief."

These things are lived and for years The candidate's fellow clanspeople will have been observing how well they are lived.  

 

 

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing. Capitalization.
Posted
3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I am also unsure of what is in a chief test.  Jeff"s post above is the first I heard of a chief test: I had thought it was just politics since the Ring members will have typically known each other all their lives. 

It's been around for a while.  The Cornw-Test of Leika Ballista involved a trip to the Caves of Chaos in Snakepipe Hollow.

 

Posted
Just now, metcalph said:

It's been around for a while.  The Cornw-Test of Leika Ballista involved a trip to the Caves of Chaos in Snakepipe Hollow.

 

Hmm. I thought that was her crown test for being king of tbe Colymar.  Not clan chief.  Sort of an in world heroquest.

Leika's test looked more like a Waha or Storm Bull " go kill Chaos", a prerequisite for clan chief in Prax.   Nothing wrong with that but at first glance  it is a test of only one Orlanthi virtue, Courage.

 

 

Posted
14 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Hmm. I thought that was her crown test for being king of tbe Colymar.  Not clan chief.  Sort of an in world heroquest.

Leika's test looked more like a Waha or Storm Bull " go kill Chaos", a prerequisite for clan chief in Prax.   Nothing wrong with that but at first glance  it is a test of only one Orlanthi virtue, Courage.

 

 

I don't see it (either clan or tribal) as version of the pentathalon.  This Glorantha.  There will be a mystic/mythological component of it.  I wouldn't be surprised if part of it is around "gaining Orlanth's blessing". Now doing that might require something physical - see Leika's crown test. But it's not just going to go to the guy with the biggest skill numbers.

Posted
19 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I don't see it (either clan or tribal) as version of the pentathalon.  This Glorantha.  There will be a mystic/mythological component of it.  I wouldn't be surprised if part of it is around "gaining Orlanth's blessing". Now doing that might require something physical - see Leika's crown test. But it's not just going to go to the guy with the biggest skill numbers.

I sort of agree... but I presume there should be some sort of RQ mechanism to depict/define such people.

Certainly, I'd suggest not only skills, but probably also Passions and maybe Runes (with associated personality traits). Reputation should also count. Depending on the position and the need for a certain cult member, Rune Points to the relevant god (in this case, probably Orlanth... although maybe Elmal or Humakt).

And, if you're talking a pentathlon or similar, the numbers on a wide range of skills. (Orate actually probably being more useful than a weapon skill... along with (Homeland) Lore)

Posted
4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I sort of agree... but I presume there should be some sort of RQ mechanism to depict/define such people.

Certainly, I'd suggest not only skills, but probably also Passions and maybe Runes (with associated personality traits). Reputation should also count. Depending on the position and the need for a certain cult member, Rune Points to the relevant god (in this case, probably Orlanth... although maybe Elmal or Humakt).

And, if you're talking a pentathlon or similar, the numbers on a wide range of skills. (Orate actually probably being more useful than a weapon skill... along with (Homeland) Lore)

Sure, physical abilities are a big part of it.  But social and mystical/religious has to count.  There are a number of ways of to implement that in game - choose whichever works for you and your group.

Posted
2 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

Sure, physical abilities are a big part of it.  But social and mystical/religious has to count.  There are a number of ways of to implement that in game - choose whichever works for you and your group.

Sorry - I'm not disagreeing with that part!

I was only focussing on how to have some other aspects of it as an RQ mechanism....

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Posted
On 5/2/2023 at 11:04 AM, DrGoth said:

I don't see it (either clan or tribal) as version of the pentathalon.  This Glorantha.  There will be a mystic/mythological component of it. 

Note that the modern pentathlon pretty much is that kind of mythic reenactment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_pentathlon :

Quote

As the events of the ancient pentathlon were modeled after the skills of the ideal soldier to defend a fortification of that time, Coubertin created the contest to simulate the experience of a 19th-century cavalry soldier behind enemy lines: he must ride an unfamiliar horse, fight enemies with pistol and sword, swim, and run to return to his own soldiers.

Within a clan, I wouldn't see it so much as a formal contest as 'Everyone knows A is the best candidate. So B has better do something impressive if they want to be selected ahead of them'.

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Posted
2 hours ago, radmonger said:

Within a clan, I wouldn't see it so much as a formal contest as 'Everyone knows A is the best candidate. So B has better do something impressive if they want to be selected ahead of them'.

Hmmm.... I'd like to think (for a real contest), that A is good at some things, B at other things, and C at still other things... so not so easy to think there is one simple best candidate. (in the end, I still think Orate would be the most important of skills... enough to talk oneself into the position).

Posted (edited)

If I had to play this kind of test, I would say:

 

The process I see:

1) those who want to be "candidate" have to find people to support them

priests and/or priestess, other nobles, elders, powerful magician, big group of warriors, strong spirit in the tula, neighbours,  master brewer....

 

2) be elected

I see, but I may be wrong, that Orlanthi clan chief is acclaimed by the crowd (well the free people). A kind of local democracy (if you have the status) with of coursewhat you can imagine behind it at this time (influence, oaths and loyalties, bribery of any sort, beer - thanks to the master brewer, etc...)

On 5/1/2023 at 9:08 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Orlanth's virtues are Couage, Wisdom, Generosity, Justice, Honor, and Piety

And you are right, that means, for me, that any candidate may have to demonstrate (or to convince)  these virtues the crowd. Of course the crowd probably knowa lot of things about you (you not become clan chief after 2 weeks). So the point is more to evaluate the orate skill of the candidate (with all the preparation he may have done, months of bards praising his exploit, choice of arguments, strategy of communication.. well politics) Because the rest is done (or at least told)

 

3) validate the clan choice by... "the world"

then we enter in the "magical" part of my process. Probably any clan has some history with a local "other world" entity:  a nymph, a sentient animal, a spirit, or just some historical opponent (another clan, the trolls, the elves, ...)

Then the near chief would pass the test.

  • Maybe seduce the nymph or bargain something to renew the alliance (like the sun county heroquest),
  • same with the animal, or maybe hunt the animal, (as it is a magical test, it will be replaced / born again in the next sacred time for example.. or it could be the test, is the beast back after the sacred time ? if not the clan seems to be cursed)
  • some heroic deed against opponent (raid the cattles alone, steal some sandals, cut wood, etc...)

 

 

I dislike for any social position to consider a test as "check a skill / a passion", for me, it is more use a skill / a passion to do something.

We are in glorantha forum not rq but : 

the test then is not how much you have (don't care 90% if you have 85 you could obtain the job) but more do you succeed to do XXX

so typically for a rune priest, rune lord, chief, what you want, of course you must have good stats but if there is an open position and you are the "best" but you don't fit exactly the 90% in this skill requirement, you get the job.

However if you want the magical benefit (gain of pow, etc...) you must have the position and fit the rules requirement (I m not a bandit, don't hurt me chaosium 😛 )

 

After all, you are not a shaman because you have x% you are a shaman because you have a fetch and succeed against the bad man

 

 

Edited by French Desperate WindChild
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Posted
On 5/1/2023 at 8:15 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Hmm. I thought that was her crown test for being king of tbe Colymar.  Not clan chief.  Sort of an in world heroquest.

For me, broadly the same rites are used to become Clan Chieftain as Tribal King.

Each tribe or clan would have its own version of the crown test, in my opinion.

Remember the sorry tale of the contender for Clan Chieftain who had to swim across a river, climb to a cave, wrestle the bear within, climb down and make love to the previous clan chieftain's daughter, after swimming the river and climbing to the cave, he went in and all everyone heard was snarling, growling and the sounds of a great struggle, then he emerged from the cave, climbed down and asked "So where is this woman I need to wrestle?"

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Posted
1 hour ago, soltakss said:

For me, broadly the same rites are used to become Clan Chieftain as Tribal King.

Each tribe or clan would have its own version of the crown test, in my opinion.

Remember the sorry tale of the contender for Clan Chieftain who had to swim across a river, climb to a cave, wrestle the bear within, climb down and make love to the previous clan chieftain's daughter, after swimming the river and climbing to the cave, he went in and all everyone heard was snarling, growling and the sounds of a great struggle, then he emerged from the cave, climbed down and asked "So where is this woman I need to wrestle?"

They are not broadly the same rites - a chief is not a mini-king and the Chief Tests are not the Crown Test. 

So the "Chief Test" are basically proof that the candidate meets the requirements of being a candidate - remember that the assembled members of the community ultimately choose who among the candidate will lead them.

The "Crown Test" is a ritual duel, display of magic, or feat of adventure (like a raid or quest). The more impressive the Crown Test is, the more obvious it is that the gods support that person to be tribal leader.

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Posted
22 hours ago, Jeff said:

So the "Chief Test" are basically proof that the candidate meets the requirements of being a candidate - remember that the assembled members of the community ultimately choose who among the candidate will lead them.

With suitable 'guidance' from the Ernaldan chief priestess, some subtle and not so subtle lobbying. Private conversations around the back of the stead. Possibly the occasional out right bribery. Some completely unrelated but isn't this a great time for it for score settling even though we clan and kin. And anything else you think could make it fun if this was the subject of a session in your game.

I can't believe that Orlanthi clan chief choosing is an absolutely fair, open and unbiased event.

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Posted
1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

With suitable 'guidance' from the Ernaldan chief priestess, some subtle and not so subtle lobbying. Private conversations around the back of the stead. Possibly the occasional out right bribery. Some completely unrelated but isn't this a great time for it for score settling even though we clan and kin. And anything else you think could make it fun if this was the subject of a session in your game.

I can't believe that Orlanthi clan chief choosing is an absolutely fair, open and unbiased event.

Those who want to settle scores remember past events in which they believe the candidate did not display Justice, Honor, or Generosity.  If there are a majority of such people that casts doubt on the candidate's Wisdom in running for clan chief.

So it is all relevant.

Bias?  Yes there is bias on politics.  As soon as you grant that this is not just going to be a comparison of stats on character sheets, you should recognize that it's politics.  That is why I mentioned the question of who judges whatever the chief contest may be.

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