Tapping

[bronze]

Why the Tapping is deemed immoral? Tapping sapient creatures might be considered immoral, especially if they are humans. But why tapping spirits or inanimate objects has to be bad? Abuse of tapping could cause environmental detorioration and ecosystem collapse as the Vadeli did on their territories, for sure, but it dosen't explain why the very practice is condemned to be immoral, even abominable. Modern world generally does not condemn regulated exploitation of the natural world to be immoral, and the ancient world had no notions of animal rights or ecosystem preservation. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by bronze

[metcalph]

I think the philosophical problem with Tapping is the intermediate step.  You have the destruction of matter and the creation of energy but the place where the exchange is made is the Great Darkness.  So even though the magic may pass a Storm Bully's senses, people know too much about what is going on to be happy about it. 

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, bronze said:

Why the Tapping is deemed immoral?

Because it effectively "dissolves" the essence of the being. Don't think of it just in terms of exploitation but that it leads to annihilation, either warping and mutating it or effectively delivering the being to the Void. 

[John Biles]

1 hour ago, bronze said:

Why the Tapping is deemed immoral? Tapping sapient creatures might be considered immoral, especially if they are humans. But why tapping spirits or inanimate objects has to be bad? Abuse of tapping could cause environmental detorioration and ecosystem collapse as the Vadeli did on their territories, for sure, but it dosen't explain why the very practice is condemned to be immoral, even abominable. Modern world generally does not condemn regulated exploitation of the natural world to be immoral, and the ancient world had no notions of animal rights or ecosystem preservation. 

1.  Animist societies don't see spirits as simply disposable goods.

2.  As others have said, tapping utterly destroys something in a way too reminiscent of, say, Gorp at work.

3.  The modern world doesn't have talking trees, nor do rocks potentially have souls.  Large parts of the Earth were not destroyed in Godtime and lots of Earth societies believed that the world should not be approached in the way Robber Barons did. 

4.  Being associated with the Vadeli makes anything suspect.

5.  Some ancient peoples did have limits on exploitation of the natural wold, such as the kapu system in Hawaii, the landscape management of many Native Americans, and so on.

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, bronze said:

... Modern world generally does not condemn regulated exploitation of the natural world to be immoral, and the ancient world had no notions of animal rights or ecosystem preservation. 

Depends on what you mean by "regulated exploitation," and what the "regulations" are, doesn't it?
Superfund sites?  Air-pollution so bad it kills the elderly, sickens many?  etc.
And why is it OK to run right up to the very edge of what can be proven a problem, and then begin stepping over the like with loud cries of "the price of progress."

Not everyone is OK with that ethos.

The real-world ancient world didn't have a thousand miles of Generts Wastes, that they could all visit via Heroquest & IFWW-vision Initiations, and see it was once one of the greatest & greenest gardens of all time... until people FAFO'ed with Chaos, and discovered the world could actually be dissolved...

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by g33k

[Joerg]

Basically, Tapping is application of irreversible deterioration for a temporary gain. Irreversible deterioration is very hard to discern from chaotic corruption.

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, bronze said:

Why the Tapping is deemed immoral?

See the Q&A: 

• Steal Breath (page 400)
• Tap Body (page 400)

Jeff Richard says:

Using Tap [Steal Breath] against humans, is going to mark the caster as an outlaw by pretty much all other Malkioni. That means no allies, no cult support, nothing. If he is a Lhankor Mhy cultist, his temple is going to get plagued by angry wind spirits and maybe even get a visit from the local Orlanth Rex. The kin of his victims may complain – even if they are nonhumans like dark trolls, that is the sort of “evil magic” that might get you outlawed from your tribe or city.

It is the sort of spell that identifies you to everyone as an Evil Sorcerer – the sort of bad guy that adventurers get hired to kill.

Why would Malkioni look down on tapping?

Jeff Richard says:

Nearly all Malkioni accept the Law of Malkion as the keystone to the faith. Sadly, the ease with which this law can be misinterpreted has led to many different sects of Malkionism. The law is summarized below:

1.      The Invisible God is the God beyond the gods.

2.      Follow the righteous path of your caste. (This is usually defined as imposing different rules for each caste.)

3.      Love that which the Invisible God has created.

4.      Do not ruin that which you love. (This is usually defined as including a proscription against use of the Tap Technique.)

Edited October 24, 2023 by David Scott

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, bronze said:

Why the Tapping is deemed immoral?

"Do not ruin that which you love" is a commandment in Malkionism. The orthodox interpretation seems to be that you should love Creation (as it's made by the Invisible God and good), and therefore not harm it by tapping. But some sects have workarounds - the Boristi reasonably argue that you shouldn't love Chaos, and therefore feel free - no, duty-bound! - to tap it (this has side effects, as one would expect). The Galvosti didn't think you should love non-Malkioni, and so thought tapping them was fine. Brithini and Vadeli don't care, and tap to their hearts' content, because they're like that.

Rokari at the very least used to allow tapping of animals, because apparently you can't love animals (this seems very Rokari). Not sure if this has been changed in current canon?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Ironwall]

14 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Boristi reasonably argue that you shouldn't love Chaos, and therefore feel free - no, duty-bound! - to tap it (this has side effects, as one would expect)

What are the side effects? I've always wondered why tapping chaos would be considered immoral 

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Ironwall said:

What are the side effects? I've always wondered why tapping chaos would be considered immoral 

They gain various chaos features and mutations because of the tainted energies.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[John Biles]

Tapping Chaos is like getting rid of nuclear waste by eating it.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Ironwall said:

What are the side effects? I've always wondered why tapping chaos would be considered immoral 

It's (often) still Chaotic energy, even after Tapping.
If Tapping were a reliable Chaos-purification method, everyone would already have embraced it.

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Ironwall said:

What are the side effects? I've always wondered why tapping chaos would be considered immoral 

According to the Guide

Quote

Common rumor says that these cultists are likely to grow into something
awful as a result of their practice of Tapping Chaos things, hence their
popular nickname of “squids.” Many say there are better ways to deal
with Chaos than Tapping.

Guide p382

Personally I think that in acquiring the Runic Knowledge of Chaos (useful for Tap Chaos), the Boristi magicians lose their fear of it and so feel free to use other chaotic sorceries.  These would mimic the rune spells taught by the Lords of Terror while at the same time the Boristi remains chaos-free.  Little wonder everybody hates them.

[Ironwall]

Thanks for the explanations 

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, g33k said:

It's (often) still Chaotic energy, even after Tapping.
If Tapping were a reliable Chaos-purification method, everyone would already have embraced it.

It makes sense to me that magical power drained from something would still bear the "resonance" of the source. In some cases this may just be a bonus or a hindrance, but when it comes to Chaos, it's spiritual plutonium.