What Counts as Undead?

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Am I confusing some other cult which is confusingly OK with ZZ?

Maybe Storm Bull?  Does their "detect Chaos" ping on Gark-zombies & similar undead, but not ping on ZZ-zombies...?
I'm sure I recall someone being "surprisingly OK" with ZZ's undead ...

IMG zombies don't ping anybody's Sense Chaos, regardless of their origin. RQG Bestiary has revenants, skeletons and zombies under monsters, not under Chaos Creatures. Stprm Bullies probably are fine with ZZ zombies if they serve as sword fodder against Chaos foes. It isn't clear whether they would mind being turned into a zombie or skeleton if that allowed them to take down more Chaos posthummously. Neither do we know how they will react to cave trolls among the ZZ goons.

Spoiler

Whitefang's trollkin in the Rainbow Mounds seem not to have inherited their cave troll mother's Chaos taint. But then, Whitefang doesn't field any zombies,, either. Dead trollkin might make better snacks than zombies, but a host of trollkin zombies might be an unpleasant surprise.

Interestingly ghouls are under Chaos Creatures, despite having no rating in Chaos and neither a chance at receiving a chaos feature short of a gift of Thed spell.

 

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Or is this all just my own confusion from reading someone's Glorantha Varying, years ago; and thinking it sounded typically-weird & thus very-Gloranthan?

I think that grouping Gark with the Chaos gods is similar to grouping Malia there. Gark might have chaotic worshipers or sponsors, but there may very well be non-chaotic ways of joining Gark and continuing an active  physical existence beyond the last breath.

Gark zombies presumably retain something of the spirit of the previous owner of the body, but that doesn't give them POW. But then ghoul spirits possessing a dead body lack a POW stat, too, while they have POW before possessing a corpse.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Maybe Storm Bull?  Does their "detect Chaos" ping on Gark-zombies & similar undead, but not ping on ZZ-zombies...?
 

Storm Bull is an associate of Zorak Zoran.  Looking at the Create Zombie spell in the Red Book of Magic p38, it has the runes darkness and death and the statement "Zombies do not have the spirit of the original owner bound to them; instead, they are mindless magical constructs, like animated skeletons." which is also how they are portrayed in the Bestiary.  

The description of Shun Mun in the Guide p572 - a city owned by Gark - describes the corpses as being animated p572 rather than as RW zombies.  However since Gark has the runes of Chaos, Harmony and Unlife, his priests (as opposed to his metabolically challenged rank-and-file) would register as chaotic.  

I've seen a statement, not in this thread, that Nontraya is nonchaotic.  Nontraya is described as chaotic in the Guide p706.  

Edited November 18, 2023 by metcalph

[Joerg]

The Guide assigns the Chaos rune to only a few cults, with Gark being absent from the listing in the Chaos pantheon on p.153.

In the Lunar pantheon, there are Sedenya (the Red Goddess) and Nysalor (p.151f). The list of the Chaos pantheon on p. 153(which is stated to be incomplete) includes Bagog, Cacodemon, Gbaji, Ikadz, Krarsht, Mallia, Ompalam, Pocharngo, Seseine, Thed and Vivamort.

Gark is listed in the Chaos appendix (p.702),  but no runes are given, and again on p.706, both in its own paragraph and named as a Chaos god under the heading of "Other Chaos Gods", again without any runes given. The entire final part of the appendix is presented as a Boristi in-world document, and lacks information about Vithelan chaos deities or the god-like giant chaos horrors like Cwim or the Mother of Monsters.

The Prosopaedia does give the Chaos rune to Gark and most of the usual suspects. I collected the complete list of deities with runes as an index to Prosopaedia in the Download section in pdf-format. Quite a few deities don't have runes assigned - the Chaos list lacks Kajabor and Jraktal the Tap, for instance.

Quite a few deities have different runes than in other publications (such as RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, Cult Compendium, HeroQuest, or the Guide).

 

Previous pubications have been rather loose with their associations with the chaos pantheon. Nontraya and Brangbane are discussed in the section about Unlife in the Guide under the heading "Other Chaos Gods", a section that ends with Zorak Zoran as one source of undead. The Guide remains silent about Gloomshark or the source of the Kralori zombie rowers. Does the imperial navy trade with Huan-to or Zorak Zorani from up north, or do they have other sources for these rowers?

RQ3 had a spirit magic ritual to create zombies, apparently for shamans. In the story of Vadel's encounter with a powerful Pamaltelan shaman in Revealed Mythologies, several of the Vadeli explorers are turned into zombies by the encounter, their souls or spirits ripped out but the bodies remaining ambulant.

Non-Gloranhan RQ3 offered a variety of other undead - mummies, draugr, and other mythical creatures using the "no POW, but MP" guideline.

[Scotty]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:29 PM, g33k said:

Am I confusing some other cult which is confusingly OK with ZZ?

Maybe Storm Bull?  Does their "detect Chaos" ping on Gark-zombies & similar undead, but not ping on ZZ-zombies...?
I'm sure I recall someone being "surprisingly OK" with ZZ's undead ...

Or is this all just my own confusion from reading someone's Glorantha Varying, years ago; and thinking it sounded typically-weird & thus very-Gloranthan?

When in doubt look it up.

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/17/2023 at 6:25 PM, Scotty said:

RQG is very straightforward on this: Once alive creatures (body and soul/spirit) that continue to act once dead (body, but no soul/spirit). They have no POW, but do have magic points. They are usually maintained in this state by some kind of magic.

I don't think it's that straightforward - unless ghouls aren't considered undead... Same with a revenant (aka, mummy). Both have a spirit/soul attached to the body - ghouls have "malign spirits" (Bestiary p98) and ZZ's revenants the original soul/spirit (Bestiary p. "This ritual binds the soul of a departed Zorak Zoran Death Lord back into their specially prepared body," p82 - my emphasis)

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:53 AM, Joerg said:

Dead trollkin might make better snacks than zombies, but a host of trollkin zombies might be an unpleasant surprise.

Judicious use of Repair spells gives you both.... 😄

And... sure, you could use trollkin. But I'd think the bigger and nastier ones would be better (and, given the increase in STR and CON, more effective.... and who knows, maybe even tastier!)

[g33k]

On 11/20/2023 at 6:58 AM, Scotty said:

When in doubt look it up.

Well, in the context of  "Honestly no idea why Gark zombies are Chaos and ZZ zombies aren't"  ... there's this:

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by g33k

[soltakss]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:29 PM, g33k said:

Maybe Storm Bull?  Does their "detect Chaos" ping on Gark-zombies & similar undead, but not ping on ZZ-zombies...?
I'm sure I recall someone being "surprisingly OK" with ZZ's undead ...

Storm Bull is a Death deity who is OK with Zorak Zoran, in fact they are associated. So, Storm Bull cultists have no beef with Zorak Zorani undead. 

Zorak Zorani Zombies are not Chaotic, so don't ping on Sense Chaos, but they are undead and ping on Sense Undead. Not all Undead is Chaotic.

 

On 11/17/2023 at 12:26 AM, g33k said:

IIRC, there *are* some forms of zombie (at least) that Humakti find abominations (not sure about skeletons).
I'm not recalling which those are, however... 😕

There are others (looking at ZZ's undead) that AFAIK do NOT bother Humakti.

Humakti hate all forms of Undead, including skeletons and Zorak Zorani Zombies.

They are fine with Ghosts, as they bind Ghosts themselves.

 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

...

Humakti ... are fine with Ghosts, as they bind Ghosts themselves.

So far as I know, Humakt's beef is only with the walking dead, the embodied-but-still-active dead.  Ghosts & other disembodied spirits are (theologically) just fine, normal, and unexceptional.

Of course, any specific "spiritual entity" may (just like any specific living entity) be problematic for a slew of other ... reasons.  Humakt got plenty of reasons.

Edited November 25, 2023 by g33k

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, g33k said:

So far as I know, Humakt's beef is only with the walking dead, the embodied-but-still-active dead.  Ghosts & other disembodied spirits are (theologically) just fine, normal, and unexceptional.

They aren't keen on Wraiths, as far as I can remember.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

They aren't keen on Wraiths, as far as I can remember.

But is that simply the fact that wraiths are always malevolent?
That every time a Humakti meets a wraith, the wraith attacks?

Humakt may see wraiths as something akin to a hungry lion:  dangerous, needs dealing-with; but it is what it is, and it isn't a problem to Humakt's theology; it's "just another ghost," albeit an unfortunately-hostile one.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 11/16/2023 at 12:51 PM, Jason Farrell said:

If you have a non-zero value for the Chaos Rune, you detect as chaotic.  Unless you're Illuminated.

slight correction: You MAY detect as Chaotic.

Because the Storm Bull skill of sensing Chaos is subject to failure, even to fumble.

[Jason Farrell]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

slight correction: You MAY detect as Chaotic.

Because the Storm Bull skill of sensing Chaos is subject to failure, even to fumble.

I'll stick with my wording . You always detect as chaotic.  Whether someone detects you as chaotic is a separate issue.  Just like it doesn't depend on whether someone notices your deception when you lie, you're still lying.