Time required to learn spirit magic

[Shiningbrow]

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

An adventurer gains access to all common Rune spells available to the cult at initiation—there is no need to gain each spell individually!

Common Rune Magic box, RQG 74 / Mythology 141.

Note that there will be a few of cults that don't follow this format, including the upcoming Seven Mothers (all common a season after initiation) (then pretty much the same as Cults of Prax 41).

Yes, I know what the rules say. That's why I wrote, "Personally, I think that's a silly rule" - because it doesn't really make sense (to have separate times to learn "common" Rune Spells versus the special ones... and, let's face it, it's an arbitrary decision this list of 'common' spells.) Like I've asked for other things, is there a logical in-game world reason for this? Or, is it simply an "MGF" construct?

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

1) it through Cult Lore that you learn the basic mythic frame. As a Lay Member, you're going to the services, hearing the basic stories, watching the rituals of the priests, and these provide you with an understanding of the Common Rune Spells, or how to draw the god into you to achieve these basic capabilities.

I don't buy it. Not all at once. I would suggest that some time needs to be spent in order to sort of get used to the power of the god. BUT...

 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

2) when you are initiated you are filled with the essence of the god - you have a moment of one-ness, and that endows you with how the god interacts with the world and how you commune with it. As Rune spells are embracing the god, you're letting the god into you and the god guides you with these basic Rune spells.

..This actually would make it more logical and more sense that the cult special spells are learned virtually instantly - because those are the myths that get told. Can anyone quickly tell me the myth in which Orlanth Healed someone?? (I'm sure that in the world of Glorantha, there probably is, but I don't think there's one in any of the writings relating to either RQ or even HQ about this). And, it's incredibly coincidental that ALL the major gods have exactly the same spells (and at the exact same RP cost! - Almost...)

 

I'm not suggesting that every Rune spell should take a week to learn (although, I'm not against that idea either), but I do think that it's just another artefact of the game, and not an actual representation of the world... for the sake of making things easier on players (and GMs).

[Ned]

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yes, I know what the rules say. That's why I wrote, "Personally, I think that's a silly rule" - because it doesn't really make sense (to have separate times to learn "common" Rune Spells versus the special ones... and, let's face it, it's an arbitrary decision this list of 'common' spells.) Like I've asked for other things, is there a logical in-game world reason for this? Or, is it simply an "MGF" construct?

I justify it as 'interventions within time that all gods can make', lesser (and less difficult) forms of divine intervention, help you can ask of any god. Also, I've introduced slight differences to the common rune spells for each PC's cult (Ernalda, Argan Argar, White Hart Spirit Tradition) for flavour - especially as I wanted to have Specials and Crits for Rune Magic, and those effects vary between cults. I wanted a crit to add something permanent to a character that brought them closer to resembling their god (plus they seemed rare enough occurences to allow a nice cheerful boost to the players!).

I've given them cards to look through, as their ubiquity made them spring to mind less. Examples attached!

 

Edited January 6 by Ned
additions!

[PhilHibbs]

I think the one week time frame for learning a spirit spell is for creating a focus. You can learn a spell quicker than that but you'd be casting it without a focus which takes time. That's my understanding anyway, I haven't checked.

When my party broke their weapons out in the wilderness, Harmast summoned a cult spirit and learned Repair from it. I was quite generous allowing that, I should probably have said the spirit could cast it to repair all their stuff and then disappear.

[PhilHibbs]

As to learning all the common rune spells, I think that's a game design choice rather than a representation of any underlying truth. It would be annoying having to choose between common and special rune spells when learning them and keeping track of which ones you've learned, so it was decided to give the payers all the common spells to play with.

[g33k]

On 1/5/2024 at 3:01 AM, Shiningbrow said:

... It also presumes, by a certain interpretation, that all Common Rune Spells are the same from each god/spirit... I would say they most definitely aren't. (at the very least, hence why the Runes used are different). I think it's simply a quick mechanic that someone thought of to make things easier for the game, and not really representative of the world.

Except that this ISN'T the presumption of the RAW.

Some deities do not have the full suite of "Common" Rune magic (they are common but not universal ).  The "visuals" and "lived experience" of each deity's Rune Magic vary from  one to another; the game-mechanics are the same, but the "spells" differ.

But I'm sure you're absolutely correct that this is a game-mechanical ease-of-use issue.  It'd honestly be poor design -- as a playable game -- for dozens of cults to all have minor but meaningful differences for each of a dozen "common" Rune Spells.  That way lies insanity... or perhaps unplayability.
 

[g33k]

On 1/5/2024 at 7:16 AM, Shiningbrow said:

...This actually would make it more logical and more sense that the cult special spells are learned virtually instantly  ...

I'm not suggesting that every Rune spell should take a week to learn ...

IMG, initiates & even priests do not "learn" Rune-Magic.

You are channeling the god when you cast Rune Spells -- i.e. your god is casting the spell through you.
You do not "know" Rune-magic; you know how to channel your God (via own Runic affinities); it is that ability which is learned in your studies, and mystically-unlocked during the Initiation ritual.

(There's an exception at the Hero-level and above...  Some of them (not all) actually do originate Rune Spells from themselves, without backing of any deity).

Edited January 8 by g33k

[g33k]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

As to learning all the common rune spells, I think that's a game design choice rather than a representation of any underlying truth. It would be annoying having to choose between common and special rune spells when learning them and keeping track of which ones you've learned, so it was decided to give the payers all the common spells to play with.

Yes.  I'm pretty sure Jeff explicitly said so in one of his dev-notes series before RQG was released.
There's just too much sheer utility in those Common spells.  It would lead to all the Gods' Initiates being same-y, instead of reflecting their own God's specialties.

[Richard S.]

My personal take for common Rune magic:

• Command Cult Spirit, Divination, Sanctify, Summon Cult Spirit - these are all just variations on creating a connection between the god and initiate, which the initiate has already done.
• Dismiss Magic, Extension, Multispell, Soul Sight - these are just using raw divine power to manipulate the flow of magic. Maybe they're a holdover of when the god learners figured out how to sorcerously manipulate rune spells, or maybe they're what they were basing their study on.
• Spirit Block - The bit of Flesh Man inside all mortals allows for this one.
• Find Enemy, Heal Wound, Warding - These I think have the least justification for being auto-learned, besides for gameplay reasons. If I had to put them with the others I'd put FInd Enemy and Warding with the first group (Warding especially is just a specialized Sanctify), and Heal Wound in the second.

As for spirit magic learning, the original topic, I think that it usually takes a week since you're essentially trying to develop a new "magical muscle" on your spirit/CHA. Worship ceremonies bring the Hero Plane into proximity, thus making time and magic both behave a bit differently, so the process can be significantly sped up during them. You can also force spirits to "graft" their own magic onto you, bypassing the whole process of developing it yourself (RAW I don't think spirits lose spells that you force them to teach, but I'm considering it as a possibility, similar to HW integration).

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

You are channeling the god when you cast Rune Spells -- i.e. your god is casting the spell through you.
You do not "know" Rune-magic; you know how to channel your God (via own Runic affinities); it is that ability which is learned in your studies, and mystically-unlocked during the Initiation ritual.

This is exactly how I explain Rune spells to my players since 30 years.

[Shiningbrow]

On 1/6/2024 at 7:26 PM, Ned said:

I justify it as 'interventions within time that all gods can make', lesser (and less difficult) forms of divine intervention, help you can ask of any god. Also, I've introduced slight differences to the common rune spells for each PC's cult (Ernalda, Argan Argar, White Hart Spirit Tradition) for flavour - especially as I wanted to have Specials and Crits for Rune Magic, and those effects vary between cults. I wanted a crit to add something permanent to a character that brought them closer to resembling their god (plus they seemed rare enough occurences to allow a nice cheerful boost to the players!).

I've given them cards to look through, as their ubiquity made them spring to mind less. Examples attached!

 

I like what you've done! It sounds like a good idea... which players will just LOVE to exploit!!!

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the one week time frame for learning a spirit spell is for creating a focus. You can learn a spell quicker than that but you'd be casting it without a focus which takes time. That's my understanding anyway, I haven't checked.

When my party broke their weapons out in the wilderness, Harmast summoned a cult spirit and learned Repair from it. I was quite generous allowing that, I should probably have said the spirit could cast it to repair all their stuff and then disappear.

Well, actually, according to some people, yes, it does actually take 1 week to actually learn (presumably, during that time, the fetish/focus is also being made for it).

RBoM p107 "Certain spirit magic may be offered to initiates as partof the ceremonies on cult holy days. Otherwise, learning a new spell takes one week of work. Nothing else in the way of learning may be done during this week."

Yeah, either the spirit should have cast it, or Harmast needs to beat it in spirit combat to learn the spell... not just a given. Which begs the question - why spend a week learning a spell when you can just summon a (low POWered) spirit, and wrestle for it?

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

As to learning all the common rune spells, I think that's a game design choice rather than a representation of any underlying truth. It would be annoying having to choose between common and special rune spells when learning them and keeping track of which ones you've learned, so it was decided to give the payers all the common spells to play with.

True... but also, given how close much of RQG is to RQ2, and that this is only a very new (this edition) ruling, I don't think it's that much of a problem... and for newbies, there's a high likelihood they've come from that other game, in which choosing spells is run of the mill.

Besides, one could easily handwavium that those spells which are in the 'common' list were all learned within the first few weeks/months after initiation... and so, for most starting players, this is irrelevant. however, it would become relevant when a) doing a SSIS type adventure (with characters needing to do their first initiation), or b) joining a new cult.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Except that this ISN'T the presumption of the RAW.

Some deities do not have the full suite of "Common" Rune magic (they are common but not universal ).  The "visuals" and "lived experience" of each deity's Rune Magic vary from  one to another; the game-mechanics are the same, but the "spells" differ.

Well, true, but I was looking at it from a different angle - not the 'availability', as you've commented on, but on the actual existence and mechanism.  It's a bit God-Learnery, is what I was trying to get across. E.g., they all (ok, mostly) have an ability to Extend the duration of their Rune Spells (and only Rune Spells), which just coincidentally happens to be exactly 15 minutes (base) and Extends it for exactly the same amount of time for each RP spent on it - for each and every God...

(as I write this, it makes God Learnerism, the Monomyth, and Invisible God ideas make so much more sense!!! It explains these interesting quirks quite well)

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

IMG, initiates & even priests do not "learn" Rune-Magic.

You are channeling the god when you cast Rune Spells -- i.e. your god is casting the spell through you.
You do not "know" Rune-magic; you know how to channel your God (via own Runic affinities); it is that ability which is learned in your studies, and mystically-unlocked during the Initiation ritual.

Fair - but it would still take some time...

Or, are you envisaging that the god magically and mystically instantly gives this information to the new Initiate? And, why can't they also do this with the 'special' Rune Spells that explicitly do take a week to learn?

 

My argument isn't about it takes no time/1 week. It's about the inconsistency that doesn't seem to make sense in-world. It lacks logic.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Richard S. said:

My personal take for common Rune magic:

• Command Cult Spirit, Divination, Sanctify, Summon Cult Spirit - these are all just variations on creating a connection between the god and initiate, which the initiate has already done.
• Dismiss Magic, Extension, Multispell, Soul Sight - these are just using raw divine power to manipulate the flow of magic. Maybe they're a holdover of when the god learners figured out how to sorcerously manipulate rune spells, or maybe they're what they were basing their study on.
• Spirit Block - The bit of Flesh Man inside all mortals allows for this one.
• Find Enemy, Heal Wound, Warding - These I think have the least justification for being auto-learned, besides for gameplay reasons. If I had to put them with the others I'd put FInd Enemy and Warding with the first group (Warding especially is just a specialized Sanctify), and Heal Wound in the second.

As for spirit magic learning, the original topic, I think that it usually takes a week since you're essentially trying to develop a new "magical muscle" on your spirit/CHA. Worship ceremonies bring the Hero Plane into proximity, thus making time and magic both behave a bit differently, so the process can be significantly sped up during them. You can also force spirits to "graft" their own magic onto you, bypassing the whole process of developing it yourself (RAW I don't think spirits lose spells that you force them to teach, but I'm considering it as a possibility, similar to HW integration).

I really like your interpretations!!!

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It's a bit God-Learnery, is what I was trying to get across. E.g., they all (ok, mostly) have an ability to Extend the duration of their Rune Spells (and only Rune Spells), which just coincidentally happens to be exactly 15 minutes (base) and Extends it for exactly the same amount of time for each RP spent on it - for each and every God...

Different game systems have had different rules, for the same Glorantha, so I don't think you can reliably conclude that (although I'm aware that some people do conclude that, which is great, YGWV). I think one unpublished draft of some edition or other (maybe the old RQIV from the early nineties) had spells lasting for caster's POW in minutes.

[g33k]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Fair - but it would still take some time...

Or, are you envisaging that the god magically and mystically instantly gives this information to the new Initiate? And, why can't they also do this with the 'special' Rune Spells that explicitly do take a week to learn?

My argument isn't about it takes no time/1 week. It's about the inconsistency that doesn't seem to make sense in-world. It lacks logic.

IMG, you spend years learning about your God, before you Initiate.

Lay members who are especially ardent, inquisitive, generous with MP-sac at worship, etc... they get noticed by the priests, get invited to extra worship ceremonies, taught some of the inner mysteries.  In time, the priesthood judges them a likely candidate for Initiation, and begins to seriously-prepare them.

THIS is where you learn about channeling the Deity.  But it's a surface-learning, an intellectual teaching.

When you actually Initiate, it's a Much Bigger Deal.
It's fundamentally a mystic experience, not an intellectual one.
It's where you actually create a connection to your Deity (and your Deity connects to you).
You sac real (permanent) POW, not (auto-regenerating) MP's.

And you get access to the basic "lingua franca" of god-magic, the Common rune-spells... plus, one Rune Special that you got from your specific deity.

But if you hadn't prepped beforehand -- for years! -- the chances of your Initiation succeeding would be very, very low.

 

Edited January 9 by g33k

[radmonger]

if you wanted the rules to reflect that vision, you could drop the rule about common magic being able to be cast by the highest rune a character has.

Instead, it is actually cast using the rune, as the Red Book of Magic lists it under. And then have the rating of the  rune be the value of the highest 'worship [deity]' skill a character has.

This means that only an experienced priest-type could reliably cast them routinely, on an unboosted roll, as instant spells. For everyone else, they will be ritual spells that require time and preparation. Which means taking at least a full combat round with no other actions. As heal wound is a spell, many full adults can heal someone up after combat, taking several minutes and most of their MP. Doing that in combat for a squad, while dodging spear thrusts, is a job for specialists.

For campaigns that start at the adulthood ordeal initiation, only the one special rune magic they get as reward from that heroquest is castable. The next few years after initiation are largely spent learning a worship skill that both makes that spell reusable and common spells accessible. 

Edited January 9 by radmonger

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

IMG, you spend years learning about your God, before you Initiate.

Lay members who are especially ardent, inquisitive, generous with MP-sac at worship, etc... they get noticed by the priests, get invited to extra worship ceremonies, taught some of the inner mysteries.  In time, the priesthood judges them a likely candidate for Initiation, and begins to seriously-prepare them.

THIS is where you learn about channeling the Deity.  But it's a surface-learning, an intellectual teaching.

When you actually Initiate, it's a Much Bigger Deal.
It's fundamentally a mystic experience, not an intellectual one.
It's where you actually create a connection to your Deity (and your Deity connects to you).
You sac real (permanent) POW, not (auto-regenerating) MP's.

And you get access to the basic "lingua franca" of god-magic, the Common rune-spells... plus, one Rune Special that you got from your specific deity.

But if you hadn't prepped beforehand -- for years! -- the chances of your Initiation succeeding would be very, very low.

 

That would be nice... but that's not reflected in the write-ups. Because, as we already know, basically every adult is an initiate into one of the local cults... whether you're as devoted (ardent, inquisitive, generous) - or not!

 

Which makes me curious - this is in your Glorantha... do you set high standards for the PCs to actually follow all the cult precepts and ideas, ideologies, devotion, etc? Is Initiation actually a Big Deal for the PCs (sort of like it was back in RQ2 days)? (Have you changed the rates of full initiation in YG? So that the numbers are much lower)

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Which makes me curious - this is in your Glorantha... do you set high standards for the PCs to actually follow all the cult precepts and ideas, ideologies, devotion, etc? Is Initiation actually a Big Deal for the PCs (sort of like it was back in RQ2 days)? (Have you changed the rates of full initiation in YG? So that the numbers are much lower)

I don't set high standards - mostly in my experience the players set high standards for themselves. And if they don't, then I don't enforce them - if they want to be a less-devoted initiate then that's fine by me.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I follow the same way than @g33k for "rune magic"

you don't know how to create the effect of the rune spell, you know how to ask your god to create the effect of the runespell

but that does'nt mean you doesn't have to learn something. You have to learn how to request properly your god (aka you have to learn a prayer)

for me the difference between common spell and special runespells is that

- you need the common prayer, the first secret all initiates learn during their initiation to "open the gate". Of course this "common" prayer needs a specification : which effect (extension ? heal ? etc...) you need

- you need a special prayer (specific gesture, specific words) to ask your god a special (powerful, and specific to the god) rune spell effect
 

however

- that doesn't mean a mortal cannot learn how to create the effect of the rune spell. But in that case they don't learn how to ask a god, they learn how to use their own power. Aka they are now hero, and these rune spells are not really rune spells, they are heroic spells, creating the same effect (lower or not) than their divine equivalent.

- that doesn't mean the common "prayer" is common among all the gods, it is common among all the initiates of the god ( or god's cult). I don't consider a yelm initiate will  succeed to request Yelm to heal his friend using Orlanth's common prayer. No he has to use Yelm's gesture, Yelm's words. These gesture and words are adapted to focus on the runes and title of the god the initiate prey.