Akhôrahil Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 10 hours ago, General Confusion said: In a scenario like that I think the very first question is; why would the village elders believe the assertion of a strange Storm Bull cultist from a distant tribe? Storm Bulls don’t lie about things like that. He might be mistaken, but the risk balance between perhaps a 50/50 risk of “unfairly disqualify a contestant” and “ritually introducing Ogre blood into our clan and curse it with Chaos”, it should be a no-brainer. Kill him if you can find proof, or pack him off with excuses and gifts if you can’t. Edited February 12 by Akhôrahil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 4 hours ago, Diadochoi said: Garhound has 800 inhabitants, there will be local Storm Bulls as well. yes and it is an important point : 8 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said: My presumption is only that any such claim would be investigated due to the massive importance of the sacred validity of the contests, and I stand by that, at least as soon as it looks like he stands a chance of winning and the local storm bulls did not detect the ogre. So the question is : - when your own storm bulls, those you know, those who want, like you, to have a good festival, because it is fine for the community, did not see any issue with this Argan Argari, weird yes that is true, not like a young praxian uses to meet, that's true too. But this guy, with intelligence and charm... - and when a young praxian, someone you don't know, someone a little bit... dumb ? and someone who is a competitor (does'nt seem the best candidate right ?) accuse without evidence except "hey I have this divine sense, more powerfull than any of your own champions of the bull, and this sense tells to me that this competitor must be killed before I lose against him... Who will you believe ? And even when you know that this guy is chaotic, it is too late. You are facing the problem described when people discover the truth. It is too late, killing a competitor is a curse, having this competitor as winner is a curse. What to do is the key of the scenario after all 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 7 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said: I like how this implicitly enhances the options for hidden Chaos in cities controlled by the Lunars, even if that hidden Chaos is working selfishly and doesn't necessarily align itself to Lunar interests. Good story fodder for mixed-up shenanigans And even Lunars might be flexible. Being an Ogre is no crime, but murder is and they’re fantastically overrepresented when it comes to that, so a local administrator might well keep an extra eye on the Ogre, which might be what the PCs needed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian A. Thomson Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 (edited) 18 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: yes and it is an important point : and the local storm bulls did not detect the ogre. Not being within 15m of him 18 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: So the question is : How quickly can we get the local Stormbulls over here within 15m of this guy to see if they get any hits too Edited February 12 by Ian A. Thomson Quote ------------------------------------ Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert' Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynneadwraith Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said: Storm Bulls don’t lie about things like that. We know Storm Bulls don't lie about that. We know because Word of God tells us they don't in official documentation. How would your average Gloranthan know that Storm Bulls don't lie about that? They lie about other things. Sometimes they get things wrong, or get it right but there's no outward proof so it just looks like they've murdered someone and covered it up (which they also do, because they're violent brutes). They may know exactly who it is, but it's still incumbent on them to convince everyone else which becomes a social issue. On the one hand you have the general respect most Orlanthi and Praxians have for Storm Bulls. On the other hand, you have how catastrophically anti-social most Storm Bulls are. Treat it like all the best detective stories where the main character knows damn-well exactly who did it, but the evidence is all circumstantial and suspicious enough that it's a battle royale to convince everyone else of the truth. Go watch some Luther, or True Detective, or Sherlock for inspiration. All of those deal with the issue of brilliant anti-social detectives struggling to convince everyone else they're right (and are fantastic watches even without the homework). Edited February 12 by Ynneadwraith 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynneadwraith Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) Double post Edited February 12 by Ynneadwraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) There is also the thorny bit about obligations as a host when the person suspected is there under oaths of hospitality. There is no exception to hospitality even for chaotic entities. In fact, reneging on hospitality may be a chaotic act, depending on the culture. Edited February 12 by Joerg spelling Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynneadwraith Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, Joerg said: There is also the thorny bit about obligations as a host when the presonsuspected is there under oaths of hospitality. There is no exception to hospitality even for chaotic entities. In fact, reneging on hospitality may be a chaotic act, depending on the culture. Oh man, the detective story just writes itself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 22 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said: Not being within 15m of him How quickly can we get the local Stormbulls over here within 15m of this guy to see if they get any hits too in my opinion the people who want to be selected for the contest have to introduce themselves to the ring / important people. In a place like prax, of course storm khans count - or if not storm khan, the most important/influent initiates -. So the local Stormbulls, the main at least, checked them during this introduction. I think the point is how to interpret this ability. If you are convinced sense of chaos is overpowered, there is no issue. Never the ogre can pass. And the scenario (and any scenario with chaos in pavis or any city with storm bullies) makes a mistake. but if, like me, you are convinced sense of chaos is as any skill, is fallible, there are room to put chaos anywhere you want. There is just to find a reason. In garrhound contest, it is because the local did not notice anything. In Pavis it is because, although any security system you can use, there are breaches the chaos followers can detect. Somewhere use divination ? nice but...did people understand what the god said ? we know that divination is not 100% reliable, not because the god, but because the guy -who hears the god- understanding is not 100% reliable Even in the block, because there is so luch chaos just "under" that the sense cannot detect anything important, as it is always in fire. if you want chaos somewhere, you have chaos somewhere. Of course, you don't have very visible broos in the block, but you can have smart and well prepared ogre - if the GM wants for the game of course- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radmonger Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 5 hours ago, Diadochoi said: Garhound has 800 inhabitants, there will be local Storm Bulls as well. That's not clear. I'd assume to be able to use Sense Chaos, you would need to be an active initiate, typically worshiping weekly at at least a shrine. I suppose you can retire from Storm Bull and become a farmer, perhaps even with the Bull's blessing in the unlikely event of having survived 5 whole years. But I think then you are then an Orlanthi farmer with some legacy one-use Rune Spells. MGF suggests your cult skill might be one-use too... There clearly isn't a Storm Bull temple in Garhound, is there a shrine? Storm Bull is an associate of Orlanth. So there certainly could be, If the clan was rich enough to support ~80 adults who did nothing but drink beer and get in trouble with the Lunars. For a PC, you normally say 'yes, there is a shrine here' anywhere there could be. But in this case, of the many villages available, this is the one that has an ogre trying to infiltrate it. So the logic of the situation suggests no, there isn't one. There certainly is an argument that there should be, because chaos is a more significant threat than starvation, trolls, or nomads. This would have been raised on the village ring, likely frequently enough that they are bored of hearing it. The other option is the clan pays for a proper professional from the Pavis temple, who visits monthly and gives any new residents a sniff. The scenario background notes merely forgot to mention that his visit was overdue by a few days, and his corpse would later be discovered in a ditch. Edited February 12 by radmonger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 39 minutes ago, Joerg said: There is also the thorny bit about obligations as a host when the person suspected is there under oaths of hospitality. There is no exception to hospitality even for chaotic entities. In fact, reneging on hospitality may be a chaotic act, depending on the culture. "We hereby rescind your guest-right. You have until sunrise to run and hide, then we will start to hunt you down." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynneadwraith Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) Another thought. Does a Storm Bull sense where chaos is, or do they also sense where chaos was? If it's the latter as well as the former, does the Storm Bull have the skill and experience to be able to tell between the two? Considering what happened during the Greater Darkness, it could well be that a Storm Bull's sense is pinging 24/7 (if it's a passive ability), or they're simply swamped by signals from all sorts of directions and need to learn to sift through all that mess to get any usable information (if it's an active ability). Perhaps that's why they're so insufferable all the time... Even if they're an experienced Storm Bull, could they tell the difference between something like a canny Ogre 15m away and an adulterer standing right next to them? Could they tell the difference between a Krarsht cultist in a crowd, and the spot Krarsht herself once stood in the Greater Darkness? Edited February 12 by Ynneadwraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malin Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Another tangential thought: When it comes to roleplaying design it is so easy to run into the conflict of "rules as written for pcs to make a playable campaign" vs "the normal world around them" vs "what is needed for a dramatic and cool story." I will forever be grateful to RQ for stating Maximum Game Fun! Which for me lets me focus on the last part with the blessing of the writers of the rules. So many things start turning weird once you take the "ttrpg rules as written are the actual rules for the world" to its full extent. I've seen (and been a part of) many discussions here where that assumption is what causes confusion and conflict. When you extrapolate what can actually be done within the rules for a (heroic?) player character, so much of the worldbuilding falls apart around it. I prefer to look at what is written about the world first, and the rules later. But, I feel when it comes to adventures, and using the Garhound one as an example, what we have here are people arguing that the rules would make the central premise impossible instead of seeing that the rules are what makes the central premise exciting? Take our lovely Argan Argar ogre and the hapless Stormbull rival. They are both placed there for a reason, and for player characters to make choices. Do they believe the Stormbull? Or do they think he just wants to get rid of a rival? How do you find proof of something that's just one person's gut feeling? Are there other Stormbulls here? Probably not many, otherwise I doubt the ogre would have tried this. Is a PC a Stormbull? Do they also sense chaos or do they fail? What does that mean? And if they agree, would they be accused of just supporting a fellow cultist? Stormbull's sense chaos is, above all, a PLAYER tool. Something to pull people into mysteries and problems. Not something the world of Glorantha has used to set up a city-wide chaos scan net. If that had been the case, it would have been described as such in the world, just like other weird stuff like dragonnewt roads. I feel that by trying to over-analyze the rules as written we risk losing the world it was written for. 4 1 Quote ☀️Sun County Apologist☀️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynneadwraith Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said: "We hereby rescind your guest-right. You have until sunrise to run and hide, then we will start to hunt you down." Rescinding guest rights?! Whatever next! Might as well invite Wakboth into your house right now, seeing as nothing is sacred anymore. People took guest rights very, very seriously. To the point pretty much all cultures had some variation of a myth of gods/spirits/angels coming to check up on people to make sure they were doing the right thing. Pretty much the only way for guest-rights to be rescinded was for the guest to renege on their obligations as a guest, rendering the arrangement moot. Edited February 12 by Ynneadwraith 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 54 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said: Does a Storm Bull sense where chaos is, or do they also sense where chaos was? The former, unless it manages to taint its surroundings so that they are chaotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 51 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said: Rescinding guest rights?! Whatever next! Might as well invite Wakboth into your house right now, seeing as nothing is sacred anymore. People took guest rights very, very seriously. To the point pretty much all cultures had some variation of a myth of gods/spirits/angels coming to check up on people to make sure they were doing the right thing. Pretty much the only way for guest-rights to be rescinded was for the guest to renege on their obligations as a guest, rendering the arrangement moot. I think telling someone it's time to go now and giving them a good head start before you try to murder them is fine, especially if they, you know, lied about being Chaotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 13 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said: The Garhound Contest/Melisande's Hand (Sun County), with an Ogre as one of the contestants I don't think the Rune spell 'False Form' is listed as being part of the ogre's repertoire in Sun County, but it would solve the problem if it was As much as I generally get what you are saying, I don't think Lunar tolerance/Sor Eel's presence would actually work in this case If the Stormbull manages to restrain themselves enough to rush over the the organisers (difficult but not impossible) and says 'That Daro guy is Chaos! I felt it earlier and just followed him around to make sure it wasn't someone else. Hell, yes I'm certain. He's got to be an ogre'" I simply cannot see the Garhound Contest organisers saying: "Well, because there are Lunars here, we will have to accept him as a valid suitor for Ernalda." The mythic implications of allowing this are too vast. They would have no choice but to act - at the least by rallying some more Stormbulls for confirmation So without the existence of the 'False Form' spell, this scenario is an example of the kind of scenario-challenge I am pondering But in this case, with the existence of the FF spell, it is a moot problem here anyway I don't think you appreciate how much having Sor-eel present changes things. Sor-eel is a leading member of one of the most powerful families in the Lunar Empire. He has no real superior beyond the Red Emperor and his court. His cousin is a demigoddess, and he is the Lunar ruler of Prax. This festival is permitted only by his forbearance. Sor-eel is there with Bor-eel and Radak the Iron Centurion and 50 members of his bodyguard. Which means if Sor-eel says Daro stays because the Lunar Way demands tolerance of Chaos, then he stays. And if the peasants organizing this festival want to disagree, they likely recall that not all that long ago Sor-eel had pretty much all members of Dorasar's family murdered. And those 50 armed, professional elite mercenaries with Sor-eel are likely more than a match for whatever is there in Garhound. And if you are thinking general rebellion, well a few hours away are several hundred more Lunar soldiers. And what Storm Bulls do you think are present here? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynneadwraith Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said: The former, unless it manages to taint its surroundings so that they are chaotic. I suppose my point is that the entirety of Glorantha is tainted as Chaotic, and has been since at least the Greater Darkness (if not before, depending on your views of Gloranthan cosmology). Time itself is likely a chaotic entity (that which nourishes itself with Chaos becomes chaotic -> Arachne Solara ate Wakboth and birthed Time). 56 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said: I think telling someone it's time to go now and giving them a good head start before you try to murder them is fine, especially if they, you know, lied about being Chaotic. You might think that, but I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that you don't live in a culture with strong guest-rights. Guest rights are an all-caps RULE. The very Devil himself could trick you into giving him guest-rights and you would have to uphold them. It doesn't matter if he's the embodiment of all evil. It doesn't matter that he tricked you. You extended guest-rights, and unless he breaks them you are bound to uphold them. (In fact, there are numerous myths from numerous cultures that use this as a fundamental conflict in their narratives). There are very specific rules for when guest-rights come into force, and very specific rules for when they are lifted. Unless one of those very specific rules is met, there is no weaselling out of your obligations (no matter how justifiable your weaselling might be). Edited February 12 by Ynneadwraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian A. Thomson Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 10 minutes ago, Jeff said: I don't think you appreciate how much having Sor-eel present changes things. This all makes sense, but if the Garhounders are faced with EITHER a harvest that means people (inc children) starve next year (if Daro wins) OR facing up to the Lunars to say that a Chaotic does not qualify as a potential husband of Ernalda, surely they would make that statement, even if they were sure that they would be ignored. Surely Lunar disrespect of such a ruling by the Garhound judges (by demanding that Daro cannot be eliminated due to being Chaotic) would be a fairly major socio-political incident, not just another casual brush-off by Lunars interfering with Dorasing traditions I can see Sor-Eel saying something like 'Let the gods sort it out' though. Avoiding responsibility rather than making a personal ruling. Throwing it back into the hands of Orlanth and Ernalda But even then he'd still be overuling the ceremonial leaders I guess if I was the Garhound elders and knew Daro was Chaotic, then I wouldn't ask any permission for anything, but just have him quietly killed. (Suspecting the lack of empathy from the Lunars.) "Oh, he just never turned up this morning. Last seen heading out of town with a fine lady, and never came back." Quote ------------------------------------ Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert' Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 15 hours ago, Jason Farrell said: make it harder or easier to detect Chaos depending on the concentration of said Chaos 14 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said: also something I've been considering To put the other side of it — because I am a contrary soul — if Sense Chaos is about the “Chaos taint” (something intangible, not really a part of the world, a hole which is not really a hole, a glimpse into the Void) and not smelling broos or having a “litmus paper” that changes colour in the presence of dragonsnail slime, I would have it follow the Chaos arithmetic of zero: + = – = × = 1,000,000× = ÷1,000,000 = I am sure the SBs themselves go for this “no such thing as slightly Chaotic”/“any Chaos is all Chaos” way of thinking. Division by is undefined; this frightens some sorcerers, but the SBs just shrug it off — or have another beer in the hope that’ll stop their heads hurting. The physical and magical consequences of (or reactions to) Chaos — the scabs over the (non-)hole(s) in reality (like the Devil) — are easier to detect if they occur in bulk, but should the spooky absence which requires Storm Bull woo-woo to detect (pure Chaos if you like) be something we can make piles of for more reliable testing? I am not suggesting for a minute that the SBs are not good at finding physical and otherwise concrete manifestations of Chaos, but their Spidey-sense isn’t for that, is it? I also wonder whether False Form hides the Chaos taint itself, rather than simply the pointy teeth, Chaos features, and Cacodemon cult marks. SB Spidey-sense shouldn’t be overpowered, but it should be special, right? Whether nutso special or damn-that’s-cool special is a matter of taste. 1 Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 In truth, the big problem with the Garhound contest is that Argan Argar hates Chaos. It isn't the Storm Bull question - it is how the heck did an ogre become an initiate of a cult that hates Chaos! And that requires the initiate swear loyalty to their priest. Which to be honest, has always been my issue with that scenario. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radmonger Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said: Surely Lunar disrespect of such a ruling by the Garhound judges (by demanding that Daro cannot be eliminated due to being Chaotic) would be a fairly major socio-political incident, not just another casual brush-off by Lunars interfering with Dorasing traditions A sufficiently smart Lunar would say: if you want him killed, I can have him killed, no problem. But, to be clear, that violation of the guest rights you freely granted will be on you. This is me clearly warning you about that. Instead, let him compete, maybe he will lose. And if he does win, I will lock him in iron shackles, paid for by me. There, he will be regularly visited by my personal spiritual advisor. She tells me she may be able to cure his chaos taint before the harvest is due, as she has cured others. And if not, the granaries of Pavis will make good any shortfall. Edited February 12 by radmonger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said: You might think that, but I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that you don't live in a culture with strong guest-rights. Guest rights are an all-caps RULE. The very Devil himself could trick you into giving him guest-rights and you would have to uphold them. It doesn't matter if he's the embodiment of all evil. It doesn't matter that he tricked you. You extended guest-rights, and unless he breaks them you are bound to uphold them. Murdering a guest is obviously awful but ejecting one a bit early doesn't seem like it would be more than a -5% - -10% hit to Honor, which isn't ideal but also not terrible compared to the alternatives. Or if you want to avoid even that, keep him under close watch until the customary hospitality period runs out (presumably the period of the contest in this case - you want him ejected from competing at least, though), send him on his way, give him a proper head start, and then hunt him down and kill him, Wyman Manderly-style (don't do the pie or we're back to Chaos again). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 12 minutes ago, Jeff said: Argan Argar hates Chaos … how the heck did an ogre become an initiate of a cult that hates Chaos! But isn’t “passing” what makes ogres fun? If they couldn’t, what would be the point of them? And who among us can say in her heart that she is not an ogre? 😉 2 Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynneadwraith Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 8 minutes ago, Jeff said: In truth, the big problem with the Garhound contest is that Argan Argar hates Chaos. It isn't the Storm Bull question - it is how the heck did an ogre become an initiate of a cult that hates Chaos! And that requires the initiate swear loyalty to their priest. Which to be honest, has always been my issue with that scenario. That raises an interesting question... Can Argan Argar Sense Chaos? Is Sense Chaos an ability of Storm Bulls, or an ability of Storm Bull himself? Yes Argan Argar hates Chaos, but like all rules it butts headfirst into the issue of enforcability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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