Sense Chaos?

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Thanks for that

I'm wondering about things like game-world logic, and interested in gaming ideas to deal with this

If all Chaos is automatically detectable, then its going to be near-impossible to ever hide by posing as non-Chaotic

But it isn't automatically detectable.  From the skill description.

"The skill does not single out the source, but rather gives the Storm Bull cultist a sense of unease, or even pain, and the knowledge
that Chaos is close at hand.  The intensity of the feeling gives a rough estimate of the amount of Chaos present. It is effective within a 15-meter range."

That's a hole big enough to smuggle drugs and bombs through.  The only way a Storm Bully could be certain that somebody was secretly chaotic is to repeatedly meet that person.  He could do this out to the desert but in a city like New Pavis, he can never be sure.

So a person who once had a Chaos Gift ten years ago as a joke is probably going to annoy a Storm Bully as would a Telmori.  But at this level, they probably aren't even sure that it was just a person or an invisible chaotic spirit that blew in from the wastes.  A Krarshti Rune Lord or Vampire lying in wait to ambush the Storm Bully would send out a much stronger sense of unease and they would almost certainly have drawn weapons.

 

 

 

[Diadochoi]

A singular storm bull does not provide auto detection. Now have 60 of them in Pavis including a Storm Lord, plus visiting members of the Praxian tribes. How does the cult of Krasht of the Waiting Mouth still have a clandestine network there?

[Erol of Backford]

Actually Storm Bulls train like sniffer dogs at the airports. They have a few items that are tainted with chaos that are not harmful, simply tainted, not alive or causing disease, etc. a rock, a dried hoof of a non infected broo, a telimor pelt (or caged telimori?). Anyway they hide them in the training fields and practice under the supervision of the Khans. The other phenomenon is that they do a sort of sanctioned lazer tag with disruption once a week for an hour or so using disruption until their MP's run out. This sado-masochistic tenancy is why the Storm Bulls mostly have high power stats. YGWV 

[Diadochoi]

Runequest Bestiary. Ogres: "Ogres look very human, generally passing for human in all walks of civilization" (runes include chaos 60%)

How do they get away with this anywhere where Storm Bulls make up more than 1% of the population? How can Jarst Daro "The Mysterious Stranger" in the Garhound festival (Sun County) not instantly be detected as an Ogre at a major festival in a town of nearly 1000 people + visitors, including with one of the other contestants being a Storm Bull initiate?

Sense chaos is a nice skill in  a D&D type adventure to spot the ambush, it is a massive spoiler in most other situations.

[Erol of Backford]

43 minutes ago, Diadochoi said:

Jarst Daro

Make him illuminated...

[Nozbat]

We know the Sense Chaos as a skill (that operates, possibly passively, possibly actively) that in the presence of chaos creates a feeling of unease or pain in the Stormbull initiate and the initiate knows it is close at hand (ie within 15m). The intensity of the feeling gives an indication of the strength of the Chaos entity. 

The skill is therefore imprecise and not directive in identifying the source so in the case of Jarst Daro, he may have been detected but in a crowd, he could not specifically be identified. The 1000+ crowd is what is likely to have saved him. The Stormbull is likely to accuse everyone within 15m of being a chaotic entity and be removed by the Justices as a potential troublemaker, as he sits sharpening his axe and singing his death song while glaring at everyone with menace. If Jaro was the only person within 15m of the Stormbull he (or possibly the Stormbull) may have been in trouble.

Whatever way people operate the skill, it just needs to be consistent. Fudging individual cases for a storyline becomes problematic. A Stormbull can either sense chaos or they can't. A chaotic entity may be able to hide the chaotic taint by use of magic, illumination or a skill. How you choose to do is up to the individual game. 

 

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So at low % you get a lot of false negatives. 
And what about fumbles, are they false positives? (page 182 does not define this.)  
I can see a witch hunt coming.

When is one supposed to roll? If it is whenever an SB sniffs the air and asks whether they get a funny feeling, then a fumble cannot always be a false positive, because sometimes there really will be Chaos about.

I am more than a bit confused about the possible states of the sniffing SB. Is it just “you get a funny feeling” (Chaos+success & ???) vs. “you don’t get a funny feeling” (no Chaos+success & ???), or is it “you get a funny feeling” (Chaos+success & no Chaos+fumble), “you don’t get a funny feeling” (no Chaos+success & Chaos+fumble), and “you don’t know whether your Spidey-sense has been triggered or not — it’s really confusing” (Chaos+normal failure & no Chaos+normal failure)? Or …?

It is easy to imagine baby SBs with their newly acquired 5% SC (and 5% fumble, if we’re doing that) running around in a state of constant panic over whether all the people they’ve known all their lives are ogres or not. Maybe that is intended — maybe that is how they got to be so crazy and dangerous.

I’d be tempted to rein it in a bit — not that I necessarily like all of the suggestions to follow: it is all off the top of my head and probably complete crap:

• Except in the case of rune lords and spells, don’t treat it as an “active skill” — the GM keeps track of an SB’s SC% and rolls against it when a new chaos entity comes within 15 m (for the first time). If the roll is successful, the GM gives a “you feel a bit spooked; maybe take care” type tip-off, not a concrete “definitely Chaos about”.
• If the SB fails to detect the Chaos “threat” the first time, they will never detect it with that ability — for their Spidey-sense, it is stealth Chaos.
• Don’t worry about fumbles.
• At GM whim, when there is no Chaos about, make a luck roll for the SB — unrelated to their SC% — and if it goes badly, give the “you feel a bit spooked …” warning.

The above is tentative and incomplete (I have not even addressed what happens when a previously detected Chaos thing returns), not wisdom from on high. Surely what we don’t want is for PC SBs to repeatedly sniff at people till they get a positive result — true positive or false positive — and use that as an excuse to off them. If the player wants their SB to act paranoid and lash out at (probably) innocent civilians, they can just have them do it; no need for a bunch of SC rolls.

Or you know, maybe not. Maybe there is some brilliant, clear, and foolproof bit of design-cum-worldbuilding we are missing (although it is there for us to see).

Edited February 11 by mfbrandi

[Ian A. Thomson]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Combine these things and the mere presence of a storm bull in town does not provide automatic detection.

Yeh, I totally get that. That's not my pondering. What I am considering is that if people really hate Chaos, then any civilized settlement with Stormbulls around could organise something that enough Stormbulls would agree to (because it would be effective at uncovering any Chaos group residing there)

Being few Stormbulls around certainly limits that potential

Lunars not liking to have SBs around also does

None of this solves (as mentioned above) the other potentially scenario-breaking element that having a SB in the party presents

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

But do the PC's actually know if their Sense Chaos actually worked? If the GM rolls for this sort of thing the players don't know if they fail or there wasn't chaos... "you don't sense any chaos" of course that makes triangulation a bit more difficult?

That also limits it, and is good to consider

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

How many Storm Bulls are there in any one area? Do they walk around sensing chaos?

No, but again I'm postulating that any settlement that genuinely hates Chaos could eventually work something out with the local Stormbulls

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

If so maybe it should cost a magic point or something?

As an active thing that needs to be focused on AND it costs 1MP, now that IS an interesting idea. As it stands I think the skill is passive, but I am currently creating some in-house rulings, and I might make it active and add that cost. This doesn't solve my issue, but certainly helps. Added to some spells or abilities that some Chaotics have to avoid detection, that will probably do it

I'll post my full ideas here later

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Do PC's always sleep in there armor? Isn't there some sort of concentration Storm Bull thing they need to do which might be known by intelligent chaos who would move out of said range if the knew it was happening? Think on it I know I'll be killed if I am detected... do I walk around willy nilly or do I have triggers that are like "hey that guy looks like a Stor m Bull, I should go the  other way" or something like that.

'Sense Stormbull'? Could be a counter-ability. Again I\d have it as a special ability only available to Rune Levels, or a Chaos Gift option?

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I imagine only a fumble would generate a false positive? Unless a GM give a "you aren't sure" when just failing or almost fumbling?

I'm not so into the idea of False Positives with Sense Chaos. Mechanically it makes sense, but in relation to the gods themselves it basically turns Stormbull into a maniac murderer

 

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

While Storm Bull may be a "small cult", there are supposedly 60 Storm Bull initiates within Pavis and thousands amongst the tribes of Prax. 7% of the Bison tribe, 10% of the Rhino tribe worship Storm Bull. yes they are a "small cult", but there will be initiates present nearly everywhere and as Ian points out this causes issues. Many may be "largely occupied", but that still leaves enough to thwart anyone with the slightest trace of chaos doing anything ever nearly anywhere without being sensed.

If any Storm Bull initiate can sense any chaos lots of possible plots cannot work, this skill is the ultimate "spoiler". This includes in official Glorantha products over the years.

 

Some of those "possible plots" are not going to work in Orlanthi or Praxian societies where Storm Bull is present, except during periods of Lunar rule or other unusual circumstances. And that's fine. I can't think of any published RuneQuest scenario where this would change things (as Sense Chaos has always been around). Gaumata's Vision takes place in a Yelmalion community and the scenario even gives pointer on how to handle outsider Storm Bull cultists.

[Erol of Backford]

From RQ3 GoG, don't have new books yet, allows the user to sense the presence of chaos animate or inanimate, including visible spirits. The ability does not "single out" but rather gives the warrior a vague sense of unease... so almost anything could be chaos and note, invisible spirits don't show on the radar? Guessing if a soul sight or something like that was active any spirit would be visible.

So if you tie up suspected chaos and had a clean/pure/sterile area for a 45' radius and have several reasonably skilled SB's walk in and out of the 45' zone you may be able to triangulate but you better be sure the area is pure?

It really isn't such a hands down "know who's the ogre" sort of ability. it's hit and miss.

So if you party of 8PC's has 2 SB's, a chaos sensing mouse and wand you may have a good chance of knowing somethings on the radar but this radar doesn't even give direction...

Sounds like sense chaos 2.0 via hero questing might permit a Sb to concentrate on a direction and know if there is chaos, maybe like sonar, even gives them a ringing in their ears of something?

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=03d9f2c5e1553dbc&q=how+did+World+War+II+sonar+sound&tbm=vid&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOno7Xj6KEAxVz48kDHRerCEcQ0pQJegQIEhAB&biw=1920&bih=928&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:33d3ba1b,vid:iZ0OJcRQf0Q,st:0

Also guessing shamans who happen to be SB initiates could see any spirit and could sense them... but the sense ability doesn't point to or single out the source... even when the ability is at a high percentage it still only warns someone... if you are in chaos nests so to speak, so many things would show you'd have chaos sensory overload?

Edited February 11 by Erol of Backford

[Ian A. Thomson]

5 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

Runequest Bestiary. Ogres: "Ogres look very human, generally passing for human in all walks of civilization" (runes include chaos 60%)

How do they get away with this anywhere where Storm Bulls make up more than 1% of the population? How can Jarst Daro "The Mysterious Stranger" in the Garhound festival (Sun County) not instantly be detected as an Ogre at a major festival in a town of nearly 1000 people + visitors, including with one of the other contestants being a Storm Bull initiate?

Sense chaos is a nice skill in  a D&D type adventure to spot the ambush, it is a massive spoiler in most other situations.

Yeh, this summarizes some of my interest very well

[radmonger]

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

How do they get away with this anywhere where Storm Bulls make up more than 1% of the population?

By avoiding the places where that 1% live. Pavis has a Storm Bull Temple, so does Nochet. I'd imagine Boldhome has one too. But Jonstown, per the Starter Set, does not.

So the vast majority of Storm Bulls will be in chaos-fighting warbands, or backwoods clans near chaos nests. Very few are acting as urban chaos surveillance squads.

Of course there will be individual Storm Bulls in most Orlanthi cities. But a properly organised cult can easily track, dupe, avoid or, if necessary, neutralize lone individuals.

 

 

 

[EricW]

17 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Should those cults have a counter ability of Stormbull? My thoughts as a house rule would be to give specific cults, like Krarsht, an ability to go undetected and make it an opposed roll with one acting against the other. 

Krjalk the traitor has hidden chaos abilities. The Conversion of Chaos spell grants a beneficial chaos feature without an obvious mutation, but does not automatically taint the user with detectable chaos, even if used more than once. The new version of the spell only lasts a day, but the old version is permanent, which I think was more fun. So the temptation is you get a beneficial chaos feature with no apparent drawbacks, but every time you are touched by chaos you have a cumulative risk of becoming an obvious chaos mutant. 

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

But a properly organised cult can easily track, dupe, avoid or, if necessary, neutralize lone individuals.

Reminds me of a very very early RQ2 run (circa 1980) where we went into Snakepipe Hollow to fight the GM's "Organized Chaos".  Everybody, GM included, chuckled at the oxymoron.

I guess that what you propose is possible, though I'd ascribe a chaos nest's survival more to blind luck than detailed organization and planning.

[Diadochoi]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Some of those "possible plots" are not going to work in Orlanthi or Praxian societies where Storm Bull is present, except during periods of Lunar rule or other unusual circumstances. And that's fine. I can't think of any published RuneQuest scenario where this would change things (as Sense Chaos has always been around). Gaumata's Vision takes place in a Yelmalion community and the scenario even gives pointer on how to handle outsider Storm Bull cultists.

No "published RuneQuest scenario where this would change things". If I extend this to setting rather than scenario and Glorantha rather than just RuneQuest, then off the top of my head:

• Runequest Bestiary: Ogre entry "Ogres look very human, generally passing for human in all walks of civilization" (runes include chaos 60%)". How is this possible?
• The Garhound Contest/Melisande's Hand (Sun County), with an Ogre as one of the contestants
• The Corn Dolls (Sandheart volume 2), with a hidden cult of Mallia
• The Coming Storm, with the whole Red Cow clan and Ogres issue
• Bad Day at Duck Rock, with hidden ogres and Thanatari
• The Lost Valley scenarios (The Smoking Ruin and other stories), which may play out very differently with Harawin Moonsister radiating her 35% chaos rune to any Storm Bull in the party
• How a cult of Cult of Krarsht (30 initiates, hidden temple building R-49) operates in Pavis, which has a Storm Bull Temple and 60 initiates living there
• How Judge Dahak is able to go occasionally to New Pavis (with its Storm Bull Temple) to "drink and gamble" despite being an ogre, sorcerer and chaos cultist
• Nochet (hidden Ogre)
• Applefest, Mircanda (hidden Ogre)
• Applefest 2, Hostilus and Nevi Fleethorse both trying to hide in plain sight while radiating chaos rune

The whole vagueness of within 15m helps, but any party worth its salt will get around this, as will any half-competent settlement (as Ian has pointed out). 

Sense chaos requiring concentration and/or MP use helps mitigate the problems, but does not solve them. Having it work only when chaos association is very high can also help, but Ogres have base 60% chaos rune and most cultists of Mallia, Thanatar and Krarsht are likely to be equally high. 

YGMV, but in mine Sense Chaos only detects entries in the "Chaos Monsters" section of the Bestiary  and equivalent (excluding Ogres cos of hand-wavyium). This enables Storm Bulls to do their fighting chaos routine without acting as massive spoilers for any "hidden cult/cultist" scenarios/settings.

Edited February 11 by Diadochoi
Added three other examples

[Ian A. Thomson]

@Diadochoi Yes, this also extends into my kind of ponderings.

(Where is the reference for the Krarsht temple in New Pavis by the way?)

>>The whole vagueness of within 15m helps,<< It does

>>but any party worth its salt will get around this<< Exactly, Adventurers run by Players are notorious for innovation

>>as will any half-competent settlement (as Ian has pointed out). << Totally. People can be really inventive, and given (a) enough time, and (b) the fact that these people genuinely hate Chaos... what major settlement wouldn't eventually use the Chaos sensers to get rid of all hidden Chaos. Even if most settlements don't for some reason, eventually one would, and another one would see their good results and also do it...

>>YGMV, but in mine Sense Chaos only detects entries in the "Chaos Monsters" section of the Bestiary  and equivalent (excluding Ogres cos of hand-wavyium). This enables Storm Bulls to do their fighting chaos routine without acting as massive spoilers for any "hidden cult/cultist" scenarios/settings.<< This is interesting. I need to think on this, as it might negate the need to invent a lot of new spells. I like the idea though of Stormbulls sometimes being able to detect hidden 'civilised' Chaos. So if there were spells to hide Chaos Taint, then Chaos humans could come to town to buy supplies. Some cunning ones could even live in town, and be ever-ready with the taint-hiding magic. After all, one thing about Stormbulls is that they are usually easy to spot

Edited February 11 by Ian A. Thomson

[Diadochoi]

Krarsht temple reference is p175 of Pavis Gateway to Adventure

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

I'm not so into the idea of False Positives with Sense Chaos.
Mechanically it makes sense, but in relation to the gods themselves it basically turns Stormbull into a maniac murderer

I agree that making a “fumble” SC roll faced with an innocent shouldn’t get you a “definitely Chaos” result when faced with a non-Chaotic. So how to handle SB initiates’ SC skill? Improvising again, try: [a] success+Chaos = vague sense of unease; [b] everything else = nothing. You can have a vague sense of unease for reasons other than Spidey-sense triggering — and the GM can feed these to PCs from time to time (with or without a “luck” roll) — so rather than building false positives into the SC skill rolls, you make clear the limited power of the initiates’ SC “skill” by making its positive results indistinguishable from unease otherwise caused. Obviously, it wouldn’t be sporting for the GM to throw too many of these “false positives” at the players, but it might give them pause over treating being spooked as a scientific test.

Storm Bull rune lords’ once a day “make ’em glow so the other SB rune levels can see ’em” ability (gained when SC = 95%) can be treated differently — as a tip off from the god, rather than the jumpiness of a keen Chaos fighter. Whether that means no false positives will depend on how you feel about the reliability of the god, and I don’t propose to legislate on that (though Cults of Prax doesn’t mention fumbles or false positives, just false negatives (given Chaos is present) on 96–00).

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Diadochoi said:

Krarsht temple reference is p175 of Pavis Gateway to Adventure

For a city under Lunar occupation.  Dunno about you but I do think the Lunars would be unhappy about the Storm Bull temple killing people for being chaotic. 

[Diadochoi]

But how does a Krarsht Temple/Cult stay hidden with a Storm Bull Temple/cult in the same city?

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

What degree of association does a being need to register as Chaos? (Specifically to Stormbull's 'Sense Chaos')

I play that having a score in the Chaos Rune, having a Chaos Feature, being tainted with Chaos, or being an Initiate in a cult that has a Chaos Rune allows the person to be sensed by Sense Chaos.

Illumination, of course, can hide this, as can some spells such as False Form.

19 hours ago, radmonger said:

A stronger objection is that you can't just reroll a failed result arbitrarily. There's actually a rule in RQ:G that you can reroll only once, and at half chance. Personally I'd disregard that, and say a roll is a roll. Fail, and you are never able to detect that chaotic, unless something significant changes. Either way, statistical analysis and triangulation aren't going to work.

That means a chaotic in a city merely needs to make sure they never meet a Storm Bull for the first time while alone or in a small group. And if someone does detect them, either kill them first, or leave town.

I agree. Anyone with a Chaos taint would just avoid Storm Bull cultists, or try to blend in to a crowd so they are not singled out.

19 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

My sense is that even if it's difficult and rather risky, there must be some way that 'civilised' Chaotics can expect to go into, or even reside in, normal societies with an expectation that they won't be instantly detected if Stormbulls appear. Something that also answers my query above, around how it would be easy to detect such Chaotics using a squad of Stormbulls if any city government really wanted to.

Any GM can make or possible, or impossible, for a Chaot to live in a normal town.

Don't forget that Storm Bull cultists are relatively rare and that Sense Chaos can always fail. It also has a range, so a Chaot can try to keep out of the way of Storm Bull initiates. As Storm Bullers are not particularly subtle they tend to be easy to spot and avoid. You could, of course, have a squad of Storm Bullers operating a search pattern to seek out and destroy Chaots, which is where sneaky things come into play such as distractions, stealth skills or heroic attempts to avoid them.

 

20 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Detect Stormbull spell maybe? (Spirit)

This would be actively cast and has a limited duration, so is only useful when Storm Bullers are known to be in the area. It is far easier to spot the chappie with the horned helmet and runes of Death and Beast emblazoned on his armour.

19 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Well, what I am considering is that any town with any money and any local Stormbulls wouldn't just 'try once' and then give up

Better than that, they do a sweep and don't find any Chaos, so the area is officially free of Chaos. So, it's not a case of giving up, instead they have certified that it is Chaos-free.

20 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

And Chaos is the most hated thing in Glorantha

That really depends on where you are. In Dara Happa, trolls are hated far more than Chaos. Amongst Aldryamii, Uz and Mostali are hated more than Chaos.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

there are a lot of things to consider

 

1) sense chaos is a skill with hight potential of failure. Ok people start with 20+ but how many may have 90% ? for me few, very few

2) how many times do you accept to reroll a sense chaos ? when a) the storm bull cannot know if the "roll" was a failure or success. b) gloranthan don't roll sense chaos, they feel, they estimate. So a self-confident bully will accept the first "result" as a truth, when the doubting will maybe to "check" again. but how many bully do you consider as doubting and fearing their own mistakes ? for me few, very vew

3) how many people trust all the times the bully conclusion ? There are enough mistakes in their memory . So how many Pavis ruler (or any big city) will consider to at least start investigation after the alert? for me all, because if not, you will have less merchants or some organization with "confirmed by storm bull" or improve the SB cult power not only by their natural fighting skills but by the money and politic. Will you, as a ruler, accept to create an artificial counter power, based on people you can't trust to make peace ( is a storm bull rune) ?

4) how many gates you have in Pavis ? For each gate, you need storm bullers guards. You will not ask the most skills bullies to do this kind of stuff, right. So you needs all the time 2-3 bullies per gate to expect something successful enough.  How much time can you expect a bully to stay in place, welcome merchants and customers (yes welcome, because you want your place to be a nice place, where rich foreigners are happy to visit) ? i can't imagine, that a nice () bully will stay ()  a long time in place to follow orders ()  In my opinion you can't expect SB to guards all the gates all the time.

5) even if you have enough SB guards, as a city ruler, will you expect "tourists" to be happy to wait in a queue for a long time , suffuring a paranoid atmosphere ;

 - why do they check so much chaos ? because THERE ARE A LOT OF CHAOS HERE ? Oh gods, I will never come back in such chaotic place

- why do the rulers accept these barbarians to treat peaceful people with brutality, scorn and insult ? Oh gods, I will never come back in such violent place

- etc

6) If I were a krasht temple (so I have time for me right), I will send non chaotic people (thieves, or anyone you can manipulate) to check toe opportunity to create tunnels and other hidden ways to enter the city (in addition, you have rubble where noone rules really it.

phase A) manipulate people who accept to organize (detecting breach, tunneling, etc...)

phase B) send your first initiate(s) (with at least the one who is expected to be the priest of the new temple) to identify the best place to build the new temple

phase C) create the temple

 

and it is done.

 

7 minutes ago, Diadochoi said:

But how does a Krarsht Temple/Cult stay hidden with a Storm Bull Temple/cult in the same city?

detect chaos is few meters range. and Krasht temples are in very deep underground place. Use non chaotic guards to survey who is near the secret entrances. So non detectable by SB. And probably not aware of the real purpose of their missions, so if they are forced to tell "their truth", they will just say they are working for some local thugs gang

 

 

[Diadochoi]

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I agree. Anyone with a Chaos taint would just avoid Storm Bull cultists, or try to blend in to a crowd so they are not singled out.

Any GM can make or possible, or impossible, for a Chaot to live in a normal town.

Don't forget that Storm Bull cultists are relatively rare and that Sense Chaos can always fail. It also has a range, so a Chaot can try to keep out of the way of Storm Bull initiates. As Storm Bullers are not particularly subtle they tend to be easy to spot and avoid. You could, of course, have a squad of Storm Bullers operating a search pattern to seek out and destroy Chaots, which is where sneaky things come into play such as distractions, stealth skills or heroic attempts to avoid them.

Do people with chaos taint never sleep? How do you avoid detection with 15m range under those circumstances? The Storm Bull priest (plus entourage) walks around the town at random times of the day/night once a week, Krarsht Temple/cult detected.

[Ian A. Thomson]

Just now, Diadochoi said:

Do people with chaos taint never sleep? How do you avoid detection with 15m range under those circumstances? The Storm Bull priest (plus entourage) walks around the town at random times of the day/night once a week, Krarsht Temple/cult detected.

Yes, also something I am considering in the notes I am writing

Currently I have a rune spell that makes a sacred Chaos precinct undetectable. Using Create Neutral Ground as a basis. Somewhere cultists can be day or night. No doubt also hidden, and has to be relatively small, but perfect for hiding in a settlement and knowing that no random Stormbull wandering home at night will accidentally find it

Of course buried underground more than 15m does the job too, but not all places have that capacity (high water table or built on a solid bedrock)

[Diadochoi]

Ian, the runespell idea works well to protect the Temple, but do the cultists never come out of their sacred precinct into the city without some sort of magic protection active?

If not, does that not greatly limit what they can do? i.e. zero "integration" into society, so no possibility to act as a 5th column