Sense Chaos?

[soltakss]

27 minutes ago, Diadochoi said:

Do people with chaos taint never sleep? How do you avoid detection with 15m range under those circumstances? The Storm Bull priest (plus entourage) walks around the town at random times of the day/night once a week, Krarsht Temple/cult detected.

Krarsht temples are deep undergound, so Storm Bullers have to be in the tunnels to sense them.

Other Chaots are, of course, vulnerable to being sensed in their sleep. It is dangerous to be a Chaot in a place with Storm Bullers.

 

[soltakss]

27 minutes ago, Diadochoi said:

Ian, the runespell idea works well to protect the Temple, but do the cultists never come out of their sacred precinct into the city without some sort of magic protection active?

If not, does that not greatly limit what they can do? i.e. zero "integration" into society, so no possibility to act as a 5th column

As I said, GMs can make it possible or impossible.

You don't have Storm Bullers at every street corner searching for Chaots, so in my games it is entirely possible.

 

[Ynneadwraith]

Here's a question...

We know that a Strom Bull's Sense Chaos triggers within 15m.

Does the Storm Bull?

I suppose it's a little moot as the issue is that we're facing is players gaming the system to foil cool 'secret cultist' plots, but it might help with the societal one. Especially if it's paired with a few false positives. Perhaps the Storm Bulls know that there's chaos somewhere in Pavis, but do they know that it's right next to them?

As far as they're concerned, does living in Pavis just give them the creeps periodically.

If you think that's unlikely, remember that it took until 1898 for us to discover the Black Death was transmitted by fleas (for reference of how long this took, we've found plague-adapted archaic Yersinia Pestis as far back as 5000BC).

Edited February 11 by Ynneadwraith

[Nozbat]

This first part is slightly off topic but I think fundamental to the solution. In any question, it's important to go back to first principles. So, three questions that might help us with infiltration and Sense Chaos:

(1) How does the entity perceive Chaos. Is it an opposite? Is Chaos necessary for creation? Like darkness and light? Or Law and unLaw? Or is it seen as absolute oblivion?

(2) How is Chaos manifest? And how is the manifestation perceived by others?

(3) What is the purpose or goal of infiltration? Is it to normalise Chaos or is it to destroy absolutely? Or does it have another purpose?

The temple of Krarsht in the Rubble is an interesting example. Obviously, the Temples goal is oblivion but the human initiates of Krarsht tend to be driven, goal-orientated power addicts that use Krarsht to gain power and standing in human society. Most initiates  have never met Krarshtids or seen them, yet their burrows could be everywhere and most (as I understand it) are unaware of the true nature of Krarsht, choosing only an aspect of her.

The Ogres that live on the edge of human society. How do they perceive Chaos? Is their goal just to survive and procreate? Why do they need to infiltrate? 

The Lunars would have us believe that Chaos is a necessary part of creation and will normalise it within their cultural remit and soften its impact (with obvious exception of that big bat thingy). 

I remember an article, I think in White Dwarf, and I think written by Greg Stafford, and I think it was called Wolfman Zac. It was 40 years ago at least and attempts to find it using search engines have failed me. I seem to remember that the story was about a Chaos Investigator and a werewolf musician (obviously a play on Wolman Jack). I may be wrong but I think the Werewolf was let off with a caution. In the story Wolfman Zac just liked playing music and the curse to turn into a werewolf was an impediment to that causing him to move locations frequently when discovered. Thankfully the Chaos Investigator wasn't a Stormbull as they are well known to dislike Blues music.

So how does this link back to Sense Chaos? However any self-respecting Chaos entity (sic) perceives chaos, manifests itself and sets goals, it must be aware that Stormbull has a skill to Sense Chaos and it makes perfect sense that they have ways and means to negate, confuse, obfuscate that sense in order to survive and carry out their goals. 

[General Confusion]

The answer to all of this is 'Storm Bulls can't be trusted'.

 

Yeah, the Storm Bulls claim that they can detect chaotic entities. But, uh. . . They can't prove it! Storm Bulls are violent, paranoid, selfish fanatics. When they come through they drink all the beer, break your furniture, insult people, get into fights - some of which end with death - and then just fuck off rather than deal with the consequences of any of that. They aren't part of normal society, they're dangerous bikers. And they don't even agree with each other half the time!

You can't set up a 'scientific' scanning system using Storm Bulls. Let's say you put an actual ogre in front of twelve bullies; ok, two of them detect him as Chaotic (remember, Sense Chaos percentages tend to be pretty low in-game). The other ten don't. Now what? There's an argument among the bullies, which may well turn into a brawl. Half of them are drunk, or otherwise anesthetizing their PTSD.They probably kill the guy just to be sure, the two who decided he's Chaotic sure don't want to let him leave the room alive; then they search the body to find evidence that confirmed their impulse. They probably find something.

 

Now replace the ogre with a totally normal, non- chaotic person. Same result! The odds of at least one of the bullies fumbling, getting a false positive, and declaring the victim chaotic in front of this incredibly hanging-inclined jury are fairly high. So now there's been a murder. And they probably can't find any physical evidence justifying it, this time.

At this point, either the judicial powers of the Storm Bulls are removed or there is a pogrom that kills a whole bunch of people. 

[Malin]

I think for me the assumption that just because an ability exists, it will always be utilized in the most efficient and organized way is a bit too much. Just look at our society today. We have police and government with the ability to tap and scan every cell phone and demand records, cross-referencing vast amounts of registers. That's not even counting surveillance cameras. If you just look at the maximum capabilities of a well-organized police force, there is no reason to say that any criminal shouldn't be hunted down and caught pretty fast. All you need to do is hire a lot of well-trained officers who use all the powers at their disposal in an efficient way at all times because what society likes crimes? I leave it to the reader to decide whether a bunch of stormbulls are easier to organize than cops...

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:21 AM, Ian A. Thomson said:

I imagine that this has been discussed elsewhere, but can't find that information at the moment.

What degree of association does a being need to register as Chaos? (Specifically to Stormbull's 'Sense Chaos')

I imagine a human lay-worshipper of Thanatar might not, but that an initiate would?

I'm considering house rules around game-realism, and wondering about sneaky Chaotics trying to blend into New Pavis society 

Chaos Taint is an on/off proposition. If you have it (and you don't have the correct concealment, like the right thing from Illumination or that Cacodemon spell), you can be detected.

Word of God: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/chaos-taints-qa/

This, by the way, only gives 15% risk of Chaos taint from initiating into a Chaos cult ("Knowingly initiate to a chaos cult (join Thanatar) 15%"), but presumably people who do initiate will go on to do all kinds of Chaotic stuff, because otherwise what's even the point?

And
"Q:    Can you be “just a little bit chaotic”?
A:    No."

Edited February 11 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

18 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

Runequest Bestiary. Ogres: "Ogres look very human, generally passing for human in all walks of civilization" (runes include chaos 60%)

How do they get away with this anywhere where Storm Bulls make up more than 1% of the population? How can Jarst Daro "The Mysterious Stranger" in the Garhound festival (Sun County) not instantly be detected as an Ogre at a major festival in a town of nearly 1000 people + visitors, including with one of the other contestants being a Storm Bull initiate?

Ogres have an easy out here.

(Since it literally says "all senses", I'm assuming it hides the Chaos taint from Sense Chaos as well. Since eight weeks is one season, this can easily be kept up full time if required.)

Edited February 11 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

No "published RuneQuest scenario where this would change things".

Yep.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

 

If I extend this to setting rather than scenario and Glorantha rather than just RuneQuest, then off the top of my head:

• Runequest Bestiary: Ogre entry "Ogres look very human, generally passing for human in all walks of civilization" (runes include chaos 60%)". How is this possible?

 

Yep. They pass for human in all walks for civilization. But if the Storm Bull cult is present and respected, they are in danger.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• The Garhound Contest/Melisande's Hand (Sun County), with an Ogre as one of the contestants

 

Under Lunar Occupation, which is one of the exceptions. The Pol-Joni contestant is a Storm Bull worshiper and MIGHT detect Chaos, but given that Sor-eel is present, I don't think that will change the scenario.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• The Corn Dolls (Sandheart volume 2), with a hidden cult of Mallia

 

Not a Chaosium product, so can't comment.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• The Coming Storm, with the whole Red Cow clan and Ogres issue

 

Not a RuneQuest product. I wouldn't do that scenario that way in RQ.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• Bad Day at Duck Rock, with hidden ogres and Thanatari

 

Not Chaosium products, so I can't comment.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• The Lost Valley scenarios (The Smoking Ruin and other stories), which may play out very differently with Harawin Moonsister radiating her 35% chaos rune to any Storm Bull in the party

 

Yep, it might. If there are Storm Bull cultists in a party, it might play out differently. Just like with any party make up. But it does not invalidate the scenario. Besides, she is a Lunar.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• How a cult of Cult of Krarsht (30 initiates, hidden temple building R-49) operates in Pavis, which has a Storm Bull Temple and 60 initiates living there

 

Underground and under Lunar Occupation.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• How Judge Dahak is able to go occasionally to New Pavis (with its Storm Bull Temple) to "drink and gamble" despite being an ogre, sorcerer and chaos cultist

 

Under Lunar occupation. And not RuneQuest.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• Nochet (hidden Ogre)

 

No idea of the reference?

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• Applefest, Mircanda (hidden Ogre)
• Applefest 2, Hostilus and Nevi Fleethorse both trying to hide in plain sight while radiating chaos rune

 

No idea of the reference.

 

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, General Confusion said:

The answer to all of this is 'Storm Bulls can't be trusted'.

 

Yeah, the Storm Bulls claim that they can detect chaotic entities. But, uh. . . They can't prove it! Storm Bulls are violent, paranoid, selfish fanatics. When they come through they drink all the beer, break your furniture, insult people, get into fights - some of which end with death - and then just fuck off rather than deal with the consequences of any of that. They aren't part of normal society, they're dangerous bikers. And they don't even agree with each other half the time!

You can't set up a 'scientific' scanning system using Storm Bulls. Let's say you put an actual ogre in front of twelve bullies; ok, two of them detect him as Chaotic (remember, Sense Chaos percentages tend to be pretty low in-game). The other ten don't. Now what? There's an argument among the bullies, which may well turn into a brawl. Half of them are drunk, or otherwise anesthetizing their PTSD.They probably kill the guy just to be sure, the two who decided he's Chaotic sure don't want to let him leave the room alive; then they search the body to find evidence that confirmed their impulse. They probably find something.

 

Now replace the ogre with a totally normal, non- chaotic person. Same result! The odds of at least one of the bullies fumbling, getting a false positive, and declaring the victim chaotic in front of this incredibly hanging-inclined jury are fairly high. So now there's been a murder. And they probably can't find any physical evidence justifying it, this time.

At this point, either the judicial powers of the Storm Bulls are removed or there is a pogrom that kills a whole bunch of people. 

Yep. So in most Orlanthi societies, Storm Bull is at least taken seriously. Same as in Prax. But in many other cultures, Storm Bull is viewed as a raving murderous berserk. A tinfoil hat nutcase with serious anger management issues. 

And in the Lunar Empire the official reaction is, so what? OK, so that guy has a Chaotic taint. Assuming we even believe you, so what?

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, General Confusion said:

The answer to all of this is 'Storm Bulls can't be trusted'.

Oh, yes they can! It even says so, explicitly, in Dorastor Land of Doom.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Oh, yes they can! It even says so, explicitly, in Dorastor Land of Doom.

The joke's on the Lunars for thinking Storm Bulls can read!

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

9 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• Nochet (hidden Ogre)

 

No idea of the reference?

At a guess The Smell of A Rat, a Gloranthan story by Alan LaVergne in RQ2 RuneQuest Companion.

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

A tinfoil hat nutcase with serious anger management issues. 

That's pretty funny Mr. Richard.

A broo hiding their horns with a tinfoil hat... come to think of it would iron not block "sense chaos" as it provides magic resistance. Not one in the same but detection versus sense... again sense doesn't give direction or distance just that its in a radius..

I suppose most detection spells are blocked short of their max range by thickness of metals IIRC.

Would 20 ENC of iron block detection and or sense abilities?

Does electroshock therapy cure a chaos taint? (this started with the tinfoil hat comment)

  

 

[Jason Farrell]

More complicated perhaps than some would want, but I don't think I've seen anything either in this thread or in the rules that make it harder or easier to detect Chaos depending on the concentration of said Chaos.  And that could be a thing for a house rule.

For example, the use of that ability could be penalized when trying to detect a single Chaos being (obviously a single Broo would be detectable by anyone, for other reasons, but not, say, a single Ogre who looks human).  It could also receive a bonus if you had a large number of Chaos creatures within the area.  Chaos cultists would need to be cautious about when and where they gathered together, which seems very logical and natural to me, but they wouldn't run nearly as much risk of being detected when they were alone. 

[Ian A. Thomson]

1 hour ago, Jason Farrell said:

Chaos cultists would need to be cautious about when and where they gathered together, which seems very logical and natural to me, but they wouldn't run nearly as much risk of being detected when they were alone. 

Yeh, also something I've been considering

[Ian A. Thomson]

Appreciating all of the input in this discussion

Very helpful

 

[Ian A. Thomson]

• The Garhound Contest/Melisande's Hand (Sun County), with an Ogre as one of the contestants

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

Under Lunar Occupation, which is one of the exceptions. The Pol-Joni contestant is a Storm Bull worshiper and MIGHT detect Chaos, but given that Sor-eel is present, I don't think that will change the scenario.

I don't think the Rune spell 'False Form' is listed as being part of the ogre's repertoire in Sun County, but it would solve the problem if it was

As much as I generally get what you are saying, I don't think Lunar tolerance/Sor Eel's presence would actually work in this case

If the Stormbull manages to restrain themselves enough to rush over the the organisers (difficult but not impossible) and says 'That Daro guy is Chaos! I felt it earlier and just followed him around to make sure it wasn't someone else. Hell, yes I'm certain. He's got to be an ogre'" I simply cannot see the Garhound Contest organisers saying: "Well, because there are Lunars here, we will have to accept him as a valid suitor for Ernalda."  The mythic implications of allowing this are too vast. They would have no choice but to act - at the least by rallying some more Stormbulls for confirmation

So without the existence of the 'False Form' spell, this scenario is an example of the kind of scenario-challenge I am pondering

But in this case, with the existence of the FF spell, it is a moot problem here anyway

Edited February 12 by Ian A. Thomson

[General Confusion]

In a scenario like that I think the very first question is; why would the village elders believe the assertion of a strange Storm Bull cultist from a distant tribe? His statement is 'Due to a special sense that I have and none of you can confirm, I want you to kill this other person - who is my direct competitor in an important contest'. He can't provide any physical evidence (because the ogre looks perfectly human) and he has an obvious motivation to lie. And if they do go get another Storm Bull, well. . . first of all the second guy's Sense Chaos might not ping at all, and if it does the accused can easily argue that this is just a case of fellow initiates backing each other up. Storm Bulls operate in roving warbands that accept no higher authority; they're only one step above bandits. There's no proof. What are you gonna do, hang somebody just because two random foreign brutes say so?

It's certainly a dramatic situation - and one that might lead to a trial by combat, or some kind of ritual challenge. But it's the furthest thing possible from foolproof, and it's definitely not enough to prevent Chaos worshippers from being inveigled into society.

Edited February 12 by General Confusion

[Ian A. Thomson]

30 minutes ago, General Confusion said:

In a scenario like that I think the very first question is; why would the village elders believe the assertion of a strange Storm Bull cultist from a distant tribe? 

Urox is part of the Orlanthi Pantheon, unless that has been retconned. Stikklebirixx is definitely an outsider of course, but Chaos Fanatics are known and accepted in this culture. An assertion would be investigated

[General Confusion]

41 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Urox is part of the Orlanthi Pantheon, unless that has been retconned. Stikklebirixx is definitely an outsider of course, but Chaos Fanatics are known and accepted in this culture. An assertion would be investigated

Urox is a member of the Orlanthi pantheon, yes, but Uroxi are also disreputable, dangerous, and infamously violent. I definitely don't share the assumption that any such accusation is going to lead to any kind of presumption of guilt, and without a presumption of guilt. . . what exactly will the local leaders do? Are they going to detain somebody on a bare accusation? Again, how could they even prove guilt or innocence here? And if the accuser can't prove the accusation to the satisfaction of local leadership, what are the consequences to him? After all, someone wrongly accused of Chaos worship would be emphatically in the right, under Orlanthi justice, to demand compensation or even violent retaliation for their besmirched reputation. . . which means that allowing this to go on risks an outright battle erupting inside the town.

 

My point here is just that when an accusation like this is tossed out, the situation is far from clear-cut and the potential consequences on all sides are significant. Which is, I think, an excellent in-universe reason why a lot of communities might work to avoid having the accusation made at all, unless there is some kind of clear, incontrovertible, and visible to non-Uroxi proof provided that they can use to wrap the situation up very quickly.

[Ian A. Thomson]

1 hour ago, General Confusion said:

Are they going to detain somebody on a bare accusation?

Not necessarily, and also not what I was suggesting

The importance of the festival activities is very significant here

Sun County: "the terrible blight of 99 when it was found that the winner, Squatbrow Broo-bane, had already taken three wives."

My presumption is only that any such claim would be investigated due to the massive importance of the sacred validity of the contests, and I stand by that, at least as soon as it looks like he stands a chance of winning

Someone from a god the Garhound Elders know to be valid says they have discovered a hidden chaotic embedded in one of the major rituals on which the settlement and surrounding lands depend on for their healthy survival...\

This is not something they are going to shrug off

All moot if the False Form spell is canon though

Edited February 12 by Ian A. Thomson

[Ian A. Thomson]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

And in the Lunar Empire the official reaction is, so what? OK, so that guy has a Chaotic taint. Assuming we even believe you, so what?

I like how this implicitly enhances the options for hidden Chaos in cities controlled by the Lunars, even if that hidden Chaos is working selfishly and doesn't necessarily align itself to Lunar interests. Good story fodder for mixed-up shenanigans

Edited February 12 by Ian A. Thomson

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, General Confusion said:

Uroxi are also disreputable, dangerous, and infamously violent.

Sorry, you have confused Uroxi with Orlanthi.  🙂

[Diadochoi]

5 hours ago, General Confusion said:

In a scenario like that I think the very first question is; why would the village elders believe the assertion of a strange Storm Bull cultist from a distant tribe? 

Garhound has 800 inhabitants, there will be local Storm Bulls as well.