Sense Chaos?

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

 thouMurdering a guest is obviously awful but ejecting one a bit early doesn't seem like it would be more than a -5% - -10% hit to Honor, which isn't ideal but also not terrible compared to the alternatives.

Or if you want to avoid even that, keep him under close watch until the customary hospitality period runs out (presumably the period of the contest in this case - you want him ejected from competing at least, though), send him on his way, give him a proper head start, and then hunt him down and kill him, Wyman Manderly-style (don't do the pie or we're back to Chaos again).

Again, it doesn't seem so awful from an outside perspective. But these things were Serious Business for these people. Breaking hospitality was Breaking Hospitality, and you will be punished by the gods for doing so. Obviously murdering a guest is worse than letting them go early, but both are pretty much as close as you can get to a Human Rights violation in these cultures.

The reason these things existed were to provide a safety net for travelling in a dangerous environment, and to set expectations about non-violence between unrelated (and possibly conflicting) parties. In the absence of law enforcement, the only thing holding these practices together is the social expectation that everyone does exactly what they're expected to do. It's literal life and death stuff.

You're right in the assumption that people would give no more than you were expected if your guest is unwanted though. You will follow the expectations to the letter (so they would have no way to  excuse themselves of their obligations as guest and murder you first), but beyond that there's nothing. Even your suggestion of 'give them a head start after hospitality runs out' is generous. The expectation is that you would be long gone before your period of protection ends. If you're still stupid enough to be sitting down eating your breakfast as dawn rises then more fool you.

I suppose that's a little of what you were explaining. Tell them they need to be gone before hospitality ends or there will be repercussions. But you cannot force them to leave your protection early (i.e. it cannot be rescinded).

Edited February 12 by Ynneadwraith

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Again, it doesn't seem so awful from an outside perspective. But these things were Serious Business for these people. Breaking hospitality was Breaking Hospitality, and you will be punished by the gods for doing so.

OTOH, the guest did proclaim, in their part of the Hospitality Ritual, that they came as a friend, won't steal or bear arms, etc...  If the Ogre came with the intent of murdering and eating a villager, they lied.  If they fell prey to their foul desires, they broke their oath.  I'm not sure how things unfold then, but I'd be fine with a "get out of town before daybreak", and possibly even "Foul Slime, die...".  YGMV.

If the Ogre truly came in a friendly manner, passing through, and intends to resist, and successfully resists, their chaotic urges, they didn't lie, and the Ritual still holds.  Of course, without mind reading, nobody but the Ogre knows their intent.  🙂

[Akhôrahil]

40 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

OTOH, the guest did proclaim, in their part of the Hospitality Ritual, that they came as a friend, won't steal or bear arms, etc...  If the Ogre came with the intent of murdering and eating a villager, they lied.  If they fell prey to their foul desires, they broke their oath.  I'm not sure how things unfold then, but I'd be fine with a "get out of town before daybreak", and possibly even "Foul Slime, die...".  YGMV

Of course, this raises the question whether this releases you from the obligation, or merely curses them (and as a Chaotic creature, that ship has long sailed anyway).

[Ynneadwraith]

48 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

OTOH, the guest did proclaim, in their part of the Hospitality Ritual, that they came as a friend, won't steal or bear arms, etc...  If the Ogre came with the intent of murdering and eating a villager, they lied.  If they fell prey to their foul desires, they broke their oath.  I'm not sure how things unfold then, but I'd be fine with a "get out of town before daybreak", and possibly even "Foul Slime, die...".  YGMV.

If the Ogre truly came in a friendly manner, passing through, and intends to resist, and successfully resists, their chaotic urges, they didn't lie, and the Ritual still holds.  Of course, without mind reading, nobody but the Ogre knows their intent.  🙂

Potentially, depending on circumstance. However, guest-rights are usually very personal (and again, specific) in their obligations. The oath is to you (and usually by extension your household, as it is your household doing the hosting).

If an ogre came with the intention of murdering and eating a member of the host's family, absolutely. Fair game. Provided that intention is made absolutely clear (e.g. the ogre is caught in the act of trying to murder a member of the host's family). If it's just an accusation of intent, that's nowhere near as clear cut, and doesn't forfeit hospitality. Usually the guest-rights are pretty specific about the people the guest is expected to be non-violent towards.

If an ogre came with the intention of murdering and eating someone else, then that would have little bearing on whether the host's obligation of hospitality applies.

It all gets a bit complicated when you get into the realms of chiefs offering hospitality on the behalf of their clan, but mostly it seems to have been a very personal household-based thing.

This plays very well into Maximum Game Fun too. E.g. an ogre is discovered, but has played a blinder and is under the chief's hospitality. You know they've got 3 days' grace, and that they'll disappear before that time is up. However, as a guest of your chief no member of the chief's clan can lay a finger on them (so long as they uphold the same). How does the party make sure they get their man without besmirching the honour of their entire clan? Are there people in the clan who would benefit from the chief's honour being besmirched, and you have to protect the ogre from them! Are you someone who cares about the chief's honour, or would you prefer to kill the ogre there and then and just wade through the consequences?

Another detective analogy, but treat it like those '24 hours in police custody' type things where the main characters are dead certain the perp did it, but there's important social customs standing in the way of nailing them.

Edited February 12 by Ynneadwraith

[Ynneadwraith]

45 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

"get out of town before daybreak"

For reference, this trope you see in westerns is a guest-right in action.

The guest (to the town, and thus of the sheriff as the town's representative) is not allowed to be killed until a customary period has elapsed. If the sheriff breaks this, his word as an upstanding member of the law will be tarnished (which is seen as more important than the execution of the law, otherwise he'd just kill them).

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

OTOH, the guest did proclaim, in their part of the Hospitality Ritual, that they came as a friend, won't steal or bear arms, etc... 

I fully agree

 

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If the Ogre came with the intent of murdering and eating a villager, they lied.

mmm , who can say if they lied ? while the ogre does nothing against the village, you cannot blame this guy you have welcomed in your land and in your contest. Rules must be followed.

And that's the drama of the scenario, it is too late :

1) once he is accepted, until he starts to "eat" you can't do nothing against him (except be the winner of the contest of course) because you break the law (hospitality and contest)

2) once he starts to "eat" and only when it is known, you (the community leaders) are facing a big issue :

- in all cases, you have introduced chaos in Ernalda festival, so the goddess will be less benevolent than usual (but the community can do more sacrifice, some cleansing ritual, etc...) to not be cursed

- if you kill the ogre before the end of the contest, you create breaches in the ritual (even if you decide to continue), the goddess will not be happy at all

- if you don't kill the ogre and the ogre become the winner, it is worst ! all the community is cursed, and there is nothing to do to purify (very bad harvest), you can only undercute the consequences for the next year (just bad harvest), hope that in addition, the ogre will not do too many things.. Next year will be a better year, if the community does all its possible to serve the goddess.

the best solution is to win honestly,  if possible with a true love as conclusion. (then cut a head, of course, but only ... after the wedding night... or maybe... during it ?)

Responsability is to fix the mistake. That's not the first time than Air people introduces chaos. But that is not a reason  to not suffer blame for that.

 

 

[Ian A. Thomson]

9 hours ago, radmonger said:

A sufficiently smart Lunar would say:

if you want him killed, I can have him killed, no problem. But, to be clear, that violation of the guest rights you freely granted will be on you. This is me clearly warning you about that.

Instead, let him compete, maybe he will lose. And if he does win, I will lock him in iron shackles, paid for by me. There, he will be regularly visited by my personal spiritual advisor. She tells me she may be able to cure his chaos taint before the harvest is due, as she has cured others. And if not, the granaries of Pavis will make good any shortfall.

 

That is good politicking!

[Erol of Backford]

On 2/11/2024 at 6:36 PM, General Confusion said:

He can't provide any physical evidence (because the ogre looks perfectly human) and he has an obvious motivation to lie.

If he were a shark you cut him open and try to find parts find parts of the girl he ate, I mean is missing. If there is nothing there heal him and apologize?

[davecake]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:15 PM, metcalph said:

Malia is chaotic but propitiatory worship (*not* initiation) of her is not.  

Mallia has two forms of initiation, ‘voluntary’ and ‘involuntary’ (you initiate to Mallia as an alternative to succumbing to disease, and essentially gain no benefits except becoming a carrier of the disease without it progressing). That might also be described as propitiation, and I don’t think is Chaotic (and doesn’t require Chaotic behaviour - you could use your renewed health just to travel to a CA and seek healing, even to nurse your infected friends). 

Propitiary lay member worship is for protection from a disease you don’t have yet. 
 

‘Voluntary’ initiation requires spreading disease, and is the standard Chaotic form. Though I guess a non-Chaotic form of Mallia worship is conceivable, it’s questionable whether it exists in modern Glorantha - the Gods book draft is not clear, mentioning only that it’s always Chaotic among broo, but I certainly can’t offhand think of a situation that seems non-Chaotic (ignoring the self-serving claims of cynical Illuminates). For example Mallia worship as a weapon of war in the kingdom of War (or elsewhere) sounds Chaotic to me. 

On 2/10/2024 at 8:17 PM, Ian A. Thomson said:

If all Chaos is automatically detectable, then its going to be near-impossible to ever hide by posing as non-Chaotic

I think it’s better to say Chaos is plausibly detectable, but very seldom automatically. Sense Chaos is a sense, like scent or listen. Having the sense doesn’t mean you are good at it, for a start, and no one is 100% reliable. Sensing Chaos explicitly doesn’t mean reliably determining exact source or intensity, just that it’s nearby. And it depends not just on the ability of the sender, but the intensity and nature of the source. I think it is also depends not just on the innate level of Chaos, but the situation. A Krarsht sleeper agent might be quite hard to detect. An ogre doing its best to appear as a normal human likewise. And knowing Chaos is present might not tell you if it’s an ogre, tainted animals or plants, Chaotic magic, etc. 

Think of it as being more like a bad smell (or a ‘Chaos headache’) than a detection spell. 

On 2/10/2024 at 8:17 PM, Ian A. Thomson said:

Every settlement could employ Uroxi or Stormbulls to just hang around and let the authorities know when they sense something

Like we can prevent all marijuana use because we have sniffer dogs? 

Seriously, think like that - Sense Chaos is a *huge* help in the fight against Chaos, but skilled, reliable, practitioners are rare, and practitioners that aren’t poorly organised dangerous maniacs are rarer still, and when you have their help it is still not foolproof.
And Chaos can be smart and mess with the plan. Put Storm Bulls at the gates, then Chaos will avoid the gates but find other means when they need to enter (krarshtkids are good at tunnels, for example). Or find ways to emanate the Storm Bulls (that wagon you searched turned out to contain a basilisk?). Or cause false positives (planting broo tainted livestock, krarshtkids into anti-Chaos notables homes, planting gorp). Sense Chaos doesnt counteract invisibility or Lanbril spells, and so knowing Chaos is present may still result in its escape. Storm Bulls dealing with such tactics are unlikely to remain disciplined for long. 

So like sniffer dogs, but instead of being trained disciplined law enforcement animals, the owners are more like bikies who own pit bulls (or are also their pit bulls). And largely alcoholics with PTSD, and so their combat abilities are a problem more often than a help. Sure, they hate and fight Chaos fanatically, but they also pick fights with, and occasionally kill, pretty much everyone else. Storm Bulls are vital when there are serious problems with Chaos, and usually a problem all the rest of the time.

On 2/10/2024 at 8:26 PM, Nozbat said:

Should those cults have a counter ability of Stormbull? My thoughts as a house rule would be to give specific cults, like Krarsht,

Illumination as has been mentioned be the only such ability, but it’s a more complex thing than just a ‘stealth Chaos’ ability. I think it’s a deliberate game world choice that there are no other abilities to make Chaos undetectable. But I think abilities like the Cacodemon False Form spell do make the practical use of Sense Chaos more difficult. 
In RQ2, Krarsht had the Sense Order ability that let them sense when the Storm Bulls (etc) were nearby and avoid them. 
I think the smarter Chaos cults do have techniques to attempt to make systematic search difficult. Krarsht has the Chaotic Krarshtide spirits, which can appear and disappear from the spirit plane triggering Storm Bull senses, but then vanishing, for example, leading searches astray and to apparent dead ends. 

On 2/11/2024 at 2:57 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Ogres, werewolves are tainted... thinking werebears are not tainted?

Telmori werewolves are tainted with Chaos for historical, magical, reasons unrelated to being wolves, or to their diet. There exist (though they are rare) untainted Telmori. Other hsunchen were-people are usually no more Chaotic than normal humanity, even those that humanity finds scary (and might eat people) like Hsa were-tigers. And most Chaotic Telmori never go past their initial level of Chaos taint and never progress in any Chaos cult. 
Ogres are Chaotic - but slightly, and often have other magic that makes them hard to detect. Most ogres do choose Chaos cults - but usually those that also make it easier for them to conceal themselves most of the time. 

[davecake]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:11 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

We know Storm Bulls don't lie about that.

We know because Word of God tells us they don't in official documentation.

How would your average Gloranthan know that Storm Bulls don't lie about that?

We know, and the average Gloranthan knows, that it is against the ethos of Storm Bull to lie about Chaos, that their cult and/or god might punish them for such a gross insult to their gods holy gift, etc. They, and we, know that rarely such morally unworthy acts still occur (ie spirits of reprisal etc don’t prove that such things never happen, but exist to ensure they remain very rare), that Storm Bulls are sometimes unreliable broken people - and that accusing a Storm Bull of lying about Chaos would perhaps be taken as a deadly insult. But that also they can be mistaken. 
There are surely many cases where a Storm Bull detects Chaos, violence ensues, and another Storm Bull can later find no trace of it. Sometimes just a mistake, sometimes the Storm Bulls will claim it must therefore be Chaotic trickery (a Chaotic spirit must have possessed them, that’s why the person you slaughtered showed no signs of Chaos!). Do you always believe them? 

Moderators, please delete the multiple copies. A forum software glitch

Edited February 14 by davecake

[davecake]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:11 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

We know Storm Bulls don't lie about that.

We know because Word of God tells us they don't in official documentation.

How would your average Gloranthan know that Storm Bulls don't lie about that?

We know, and the average Gloranthan knows, that it is against the ethos of Storm Bull to lie about Chaos, that their cult and/or god might punish them for such a gross insult to their gods holy gift, etc. They, and we, know that rarely such morally unworthy acts still occur (ie spirits of reprisal etc don’t prove that such things never happen, but exist to ensure they remain very rare), that Storm Bulls are sometimes unreliable broken people - and that accusing a Storm Bull of lying about Chaos would perhaps be taken as a deadly insult. But that also they can be mistaken. 
There are surely many cases where a Storm Bull detects Chaos, violence ensues, and another Storm Bull can later find no trace of it. Sometimes just a mistake, sometimes the Storm Bulls will claim it must therefore be Chaotic trickery (a Chaotic spirit must have possessed them, that’s why the person you slaughtered showed no signs of Chaos!). Do you always believe them? 
 

[davecake]

On 2/12/2024 at 7:11 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

We know Storm Bulls don't lie about that.

We know because Word of God tells us they don't in official documentation.

How would your average Gloranthan know that Storm Bulls don't lie about that?

We know, and the average Gloranthan knows, that it is against the ethos of Storm Bull to lie about Chaos, that their cult and/or god might punish them for such a gross insult to their gods holy gift, etc. They, and we, know that rarely such morally unworthy acts still occur (ie spirits of reprisal etc don’t prove that such things never happen, but exist to ensure they remain very rare), that Storm Bulls are sometimes unreliable broken people - and that accusing a Storm Bull of lying about Chaos would perhaps be taken as a deadly insult. But that also they can be mistaken. 
There are surely many cases where a Storm Bull detects Chaos, violence ensues, and another Storm Bull can later find no trace of it. Sometimes just a mistake, sometimes the Storm Bulls will claim it must therefore be Chaotic trickery (a Chaotic spirit must have possessed them, that’s why the person you slaughtered showed no signs of Chaos!). Do you always believe them? 
 

[davecake]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:09 AM, Jeff said:

Gaumata's Vision takes place in a Yelmalion community and the scenario even gives pointer on how to handle outsider Storm Bull cultists.

and it’s a great scenario for examining some of what being fanatically anti-Chaos really means, and why it might be religious doctrine but isn’t usually an accurate depiction of behaviour (and so Storm Bull really are different in this regard). Most players will claim their PCs are 100% Chaos killers. But I certainly found that most PCs were not so keen on being the ones

Spoiler

to personally perform the mass execution of many children, including infants. .

One very long running PC (an Orlanthi) in my longest running campaign permanently acquired the epithet ‘the Butcher’ that day, because his companions saw that he (and a Storm Bull who was with them) did not flinch from what was required. 

[davecake]

It is worth thinking about the idea that the Chaos tainted Telmori provided the Sartar Royal Guard for decades. Including the bodyguards of the King of Sartar, and  the House of Sartar even intermarried with Telmori at points. 

And the House of Sartar (including several Kings of Sartar) also associated with the Storm Bull cultists in that time, and obviously remained members in good standing of the Orlanth cult (including high priests of Orlanth Rex).
And this is aside from under Lunar occupation. 
Even Storm Bull cultists can sometimes understand that there are reasons for Chaos taint that must be accommodated practically. Even Storm Bull cultists can hold their feelings about Chaos in check if they believe there to be a reason for what they are sensing. 
Sure, I don’t think a Storm Bull cultist would want to be around Telmori themselves, and they probably would remain resentful about it. The association with Telmori was, I believe, always at least controversial. 

But it does point to one very obvious way in which Storm Bull Sense Chaos can be ‘fooled’ - when they are correct about the presence of Chaos, but wrong about why. 

An ogre PC in one game (I was unsure about allowing it, but the player was keen and I did not make it easy for him - and he was not a Chaos worshipper, just tainted by birth, so effectively as Chaotic as a Telmori) once survived a brief association with a Storm Bull by this means - he had a companion who was a Telmori, a hostage as part of a peace deal with the Telmori (the Queen of the Cinsina also has Telmori hostages in her household), and by staying close to him was able to always claim that any time Chaos was sensed it must have been the Telmori. It might not have lasted forever, but it worked for a few days.

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Mallia has two forms of initiation, ‘voluntary’ and ‘involuntary’ (you initiate to Mallia as an alternative to succumbing to disease, and essentially gain no benefits except becoming a carrier of the disease without it progressing). That might also be described as propitiation, and I don’t think is Chaotic (and doesn’t require Chaotic behaviour - you could use your renewed health just to travel to a CA and seek healing, even to nurse your infected friends). 

Voluntary and involuntary aren't the right words to use.  If one choses to perish from the disease rather than become a carrier then it's still a choice, init?  I'm inclined to regard someone becoming a carrier in the same moral space as one who conceals a zombie bite (or a positive COVID test) and give them a 20% Chaos rating if not otherwise chaotic.  

Edited February 14 by metcalph

[davecake]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Voluntary and involuntary aren't the right words to use.

I use those terms not after prolonged linguistic consideration, but because those are the terms that have been used previously in cult descriptions (in both Cults of Terror and Lords of Terror), and I have every reason to suppose will be used in whatever the Chaos Cults book is called (as the Cults draft write up uses those terms too). So they are the ‘right words’ to use for purposes of communicating about the Mallia cult in some common vocabulary, which I think certainly helps discussion. So I will continue to use those terms to describe those cult statuses. Perhaps we can follow the common community practice of capitalizing such Defined Terms where we need to make that distinction? 

And sure, they may not be the perfect terms, as there is a choice to not choose to continue to fight the disease to the point of death, so you may suggest more appropriate terminology if you want for general discussion of the issue. And certainly you can treat it becoming an Involuntary Initiate as voluntary and a despicable Chaotic act if you want - it’s not enough that you suffer, you must be additionally punished for not choosing additional suffering/doom?

But I  can certainly see the argument that if, due to circumstances and misadventure, you are placed in a position that allows the filth goddess to point her metaphorical disease gun at your head and say ‘give me a point of POW or I shoot’, it’s not really much of a voluntary choice, and I think it’s a fairly strong argument that it’s not a Chaotic act. 

And all of those writeups state that she is associated with the runes of Death and Darkness, and associated with Chaos when worshipped by broos. While I get that the classes of Involuntary Initiate and Voluntary Initiate do not map 100% to whether or not she is ‘worshipped by broos’ and thus associated with Chaos, it does seem like that is by far the most natural reading, as you can become an Involuntary Initiate without ever being anywhere near broo, or any other Voluntary Imitiate of Mallia. If it is possible to treat Mallia as simply a Death and Darkness cult, surely that is the situation for Involuntary Initiates? So the evidence from observed RuneQuest Glorantha is pretty firmly on ‘Involuntary Initiate=/=Chaotic’ to me. 

[Ynneadwraith]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

We know, and the average Gloranthan knows, that it is against the ethos of Storm Bull to lie about Chaos, that their cult and/or god might punish them for such a gross insult to their gods holy gift, etc.

Do they though? How would they know? Because a Storm Bull tells them? Those notoriously trustworthy and morally upstanding people...

Are we sure that Storm Bull would punish them for lying about Chaos? In my mind he just cares that chaos is destroyed, and really doesn't care much for collateral damage. You could argue that lying about chaos is detrimental to destroying chaos, but so is being violent anti-social drunks and Storm Bull seems perfectly happy with that.

I'm not suggesting that they're universally disbelieved, especially where their cult is valued. More that there is a significant requirement of a Storm Bull to convince other people around them that their hunch is correct (which, being anti-social nutcases, they are almost singularly ill-equipped to do). They're largely trading on the social standing of their cult, and people's fear of Chaos, which works ok at a general level but when you start getting down to specific cases can get quite ropey indeed.

One of the best aspects of this approach is it Makes Glorantha Fun, by opening up all the sort of detective storylines I mentioned earlier 🙂 

[davecake]

14 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I'm not suggesting that they're universally disbelieved, especially where their cult is valued. More that there is a significant requirement of a Storm Bull to convince other people around them that their hunch is correct

I think most Gloranthans will believe that a Storm Bull is very dedicated to the destruction of Chaos, and I think most would presume that a Storm Bulls motivations are valid. But they are also generally not presumed to be smart, deep thinkers, so while people might presume the Storm Bulls senses are probably correct, that doesn’t mean they are going to presume the Storm Bulls advice about what to do in response is going to be followed. 

[Ynneadwraith]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

I think most Gloranthans will believe that a Storm Bull is very dedicated to the destruction of Chaos, and I think most would presume that a Storm Bulls motivations are valid. But they are also generally not presumed to be smart, deep thinkers, so while people might presume the Storm Bulls senses are probably correct, that doesn’t mean they are going to presume the Storm Bulls advice about what to do in response is going to be followed. 

Near enough to the detective analogy. Most people know that Luther, Sherlock and Rust are dedicated to catching crims (with some notable exceptions, some innocent some guilty), but generally disbelieve their gut instincts until sufficient (difficult to procure) proof is presented.

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

I think most Gloranthans will believe that a Storm Bull is very dedicated to the destruction of Chaos, and I think most would presume that a Storm Bulls motivations are valid. But they are also generally not presumed to be smart, deep thinkers, so while people might presume the Storm Bulls senses are probably correct, that doesn’t mean they are going to presume the Storm Bulls advice about what to do in response is going to be followed. 

Although Praxians and Orlanthi are very serious about Chaos, so while they might not go with "axe to the head right this minute", they're unlikely to be slackers about Chaos either.

[Manunancy]

On 2/14/2024 at 4:41 AM, davecake said:

Mallia has two forms of initiation, ‘voluntary’ and ‘involuntary’ (you initiate to Mallia as an alternative to succumbing to disease, and essentially gain no benefits except becoming a carrier of the disease without it progressing). That might also be described as propitiation, and I don’t think is Chaotic (and doesn’t require Chaotic behaviour - you could use your renewed health just to travel to a CA and seek healing, even to nurse your infected friends). 

Propitiary lay member worship is for protection from a disease you don’t have yet. 
 

‘Voluntary’ initiation requires spreading disease, and is the standard Chaotic form. Though I guess a non-Chaotic form of Mallia worship is conceivable, it’s questionable whether it exists in modern Glorantha - the Gods book draft is not clear, mentioning only that it’s always Chaotic among broo, but I certainly can’t offhand think of a situation that seems non-Chaotic (ignoring the self-serving claims of cynical Illuminates). For example Mallia worship as a weapon of war in the kingdom of War (or elsewhere) sounds Chaotic to me. 

I

I would consider Malia worship soemwhat like you would interacting with teh mob - propiatory worship (aka minimumservice  lay-member stye worhsip to keep her diesases at bay) would be akin to paying protection money to avoid getting your shop burned. That's not good, but you can get away with it. So probably non chaotic as long as you don't do too much of it.

More active worhsip would me more like paying said mobsters for assistance - say breaking a debtor's legs or having their pet bribed judge let you get acquited. Here you're straying far closer to Chaos and if it gets know, you'll be i ntrouble. And probably earn yourself a chaos taint.

[Erol of Backford]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:06 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

This plays very well into Maximum Game Fun too. E.g. an ogre is discovered, but has played a blinder and is under the chief's hospitality.

Said before, open them up if there is chunk-of-girl in their stomach then hospitality has reached its terminus no?

If not heal them an apologize but then track them down after and kill them anyway. But their tracks lead the PC's into an ambush...

Great game fun here.

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Said before, open them up if there is chunk-of-girl in their stomach then hospitality has reached its terminus no?

If not heal them an apologize but then track them down after and kill them anyway. But their tracks lead the PC's into an ambush...

Great game fun here.

I can see a fair bit of game fun being in the persuading of the ogre to let you 'just open them up', and the ogre arguing that constitutes an indignity that guest-rights wouldn't permit:

"I mean, how insulting. This drunkard's head wobbles and you all jump to cutting me up to look inside like a bunch of vultures! As if our host's honour and judgement has no value. Vingvald Guest-cutter of the Guest-cutter Clan they shall call him! Shame on you for even thinking it!

And besides, how am I to trust that you will heal me up again? I've seen more than one of you eyeing up my golden torqs...

Tell you what, you let me stay my time in peace as is my Right, and I shall be so magnanimous as to forget the whole idea. I think that's more than fair, don't you?"

[Erol of Backford]

2 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I think that's more than fair, don't you?"

But you detect as chaotic (kidda sorta) and didn't pass out detect lie spell nor do you have an alibi... confess or submit to examination?

I love it... 

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Said before, open them up if there is chunk-of-girl in their stomach then hospitality has reached its terminus no?

If not heal them an apologize but then track them down after and kill them anyway. But their tracks lead the PC's into an ambush...

Great game fun here.

Cut open an alligator or a shark, and you may find recognizable chunks of their most recent meal, who they attempt to swallow whole if they can, or in big pieces because they bite but  don't chew..  But ogres, being basically people, chew.  The ogre might call your bluff because he knows he chews.