Sense Chaos?

[Erol of Backford]

36 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But ogres, being basically people, chew.

Basically people who have sharp pointy teeth, no molars and don't prep meat unless they are going on a long journey for which they'd jerky it.

Don't you see the resemblance? Plus when you kill for food and are worried about being caught you don't have a sit down midnight BBQ?

 

Edited February 16 by Erol of Backford

[Ynneadwraith]

41 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

But you detect as chaotic (kidda sorta) and didn't pass out detect lie spell nor do you have an alibi... confess or submit to examination?

I love it... 

"Chaotic? Moi? Now we're trading violence for even graver insult! I've never met such a rude people in all my life!

But I am not an unreasonable man, and the senses of a Storm Bull are to be trusted. May I ask how it is you have decided I am the source of our friend's ill-feeling? Because you do not know me? What does that say of the hospitality of your people, that you would accuse honourable visitors of being chaotic with nary a whiff of proof to the claim?!"

Oh dear...I think I'm being convinced how fun it would be to run an ogre character trying to hide in plain sight 😄

[Erol of Backford]

2 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Oh dear...I think I'm being convinced how fun it would be to run an ogre character trying to hide in plain sight 😄

I played a PC like that years ago, it was actually easy for me but the GM kept having my character do things without me knowing to set the character up.

I had to find ways to convince the other PC's my character wasn't a bad dude. I'd be like my character did whaaat?

I was more worried about what trouble my character was in than what the entire party was doing.

It actually got stressful sometimes and in the end my character was killed via monsters, not the other PC's, was resurrected and than cured of said chaos taint... can't recall but being an ogre in plain sight can be fun...

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Manunancy said:

I would consider Malia worship somewhat like you would interacting with the mob — propitiatory worship (aka minimum service lay-member style worship to keep her diseases at bay) would be akin to paying protection money to avoid getting your shop burned.

I don’t know why people get so hung up on Mallia and non-chaotic worship having to be propitiatory. Mallia has a place in the world. Consider:

• Under the terms of the Great Compromise, Mallia is the necessary bane of the mortal races, and at last will lead them to the halls of Hell even if they avoid every other fate … This means that not even her greatest worshipper is safe from her embrace if he outlasts the span of years allotted to his species. Mallia is also the janitor of the gods, providing the corruption which turns flesh and bone back to dust.
  — Cults of Terror (Classic PDF, p. 26) [emphasis mine]

She has a regulatory function, taking those who have outlived their time, and she recycles their remains. She is a provider of ecosystem services and to be respected for that. She takes away. She gives. These are related.

When Gloranthans worship the sometimes destructive Storm, Sea, Fire, and Earth, is that only propitiation? Even that “nice” White Lady might steal your immune system and leave you to die (Cults of Prax — Classic PDF, p. 71) — now that is a protection racket. At least you know where you are with the Mother of Microbes: ashes to ashes, dust to dust; She will embrace you in the end. Is it any worse than worshipping violent death in the guise of Humakt? War isn’t the “new enzyme detergent demise of Ali MacGraw”, after all — nothing is.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Cut open an alligator or a shark, and you may find recognizable chunks of their most recent meal, who they attempt to swallow whole if they can, or in big pieces because they bite but  don't chew..  But ogres, being basically people, chew.  The ogre might call your bluff because he knows he chews.

Use the Trickster spell Vomit on the guest, then Heal Body. The Gloranthan version of rescuing Red Riding Hood, if coupled with a Resurrection.

Overall I am reminded of a certain Babylon 5 episode

Spoiler

in which a Minbari leader's corpse was presented at the station, then went AWOL, and a certain group of carrion eaters were made to throw up.

 

[Ali the Helering]

Personally, I think clues are orange skin, disproportionate hands, money troubles and a tendency to wear baseball caps...

I say this from the (comparative) safety of the UK, of course.  We have pig molesters, rejoice!

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

orange skin

I know some people in Florida with orange skin but where in Glorantha? Does orange skin signify or register as chaotic?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I know some people in Florida with orange skin but where in Glorantha? Does orange skin signify or register as chaotic?

Orange skin is a possibility for Orlanthi - there was a Pol Joni hero of Humakt with orange skin mentioned in the Cults of Prax write-up.

[Erol of Backford]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Pol Joni hero of Humakt with orange skin

I think it was from a spell traded Sunbright and not actual orange skin...

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I know some people in Florida with orange skin but where in Glorantha?

Teleos.

[davecake]

On 2/17/2024 at 1:38 AM, Manunancy said:

More active worhsip would me more like paying said mobsters for assistance - say breaking a debtor's legs or having their pet bribed judge let you get acquited. Here you're straying far closer to Chaos and if it gets know, you'll be i ntrouble. And probably earn yourself a chaos taint.

I definitely don’t share this feeling. We’ve known the Praxians, a very anti-Chaos culture, will use broo as mercenaries. A temporary alliance with Chaotic beings for pragmatic reasons does not seem to make you Chaotic. I think Chaotic taint is a personal thing from personal acts. 

Edited February 18 by davecake

[Ian A. Thomson]

27 minutes ago, davecake said:

I definitely don’t share this feeling. We’ve known the Praxians, a very anti-Chaos culture, will use broo as mercenaries. A temporary alliance with Chaotic beings for pragmatic reasons does not seem to make you Chaotic. I think Chaotic taint is a personal thing from personal acts. 

Both could have merit though

One seems to be very self-focused (the more active mobster ideas - rather than just paying for protection)

And the other (Chaos mercenaries in battle) more of a cultural necessity (at least perceived)

The latter is being used to save their whole clan/tribe/culture from annihilation cos they don't have enough warriors of their own. The former is part of self-benefitting chicanery where one gets personally involved with the Chaos/mob (more actively emulating them)

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I definitely don’t share this feeling. We’ve known the Praxians, a very anti-Chaos culture, will use broo as mercenaries. A temporary alliance with Chaotic beings for pragmatic reasons does not seem to make you Chaotic. I think Chaotic taint is a personal thing from personal acts. 

The action being disputed as to chaoticness is praying to Malia to avoid further suffering from the disease while exposing others to the same disease.  The "involuntary initiate" even sacrifices 2 points of permanent POW in the Cults of Terror rules and can become a voluntary initiate by simply seeking out a disease master.  That seems to me quantitatively different from making an alliance with Broos and more like accepting a Chaos Gift from the Lunars.  

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

I definitely don’t share this feeling. We’ve known the Praxians, a very anti-Chaos culture, will use broo as mercenaries. A temporary alliance with Chaotic beings for pragmatic reasons does not seem to make you Chaotic. I think Chaotic taint is a personal thing from personal acts. 

At least in the updated French edition of Nomad Gods (Les Dieux Nomades, using the Charette rules rather than Greg's original, often fiddled with result tables) suggested that the player allying Chaos would suffer a -1 on all die rolls from the moment of alliance onward, which is a major hindrance under those rules, halving the maximum possible damage.

[Erol of Backford]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

The action being disputed as to chaoticness is praying to Malia to avoid further suffering from the disease while exposing others to the same disease. 

We always go with the age old saying, you sleep with goatmen you wake up with a chaos taint... maybe more than just a taint? dogs-fleas...

[Adam Baxter]

On 2/12/2024 at 2:46 PM, Jeff said:

In truth, the big problem with the Garhound contest is that Argan Argar hates Chaos. It isn't the Storm Bull question - it is how the heck did an ogre become an initiate of a cult that hates Chaos! And that requires the initiate swear loyalty to their priest.

Which to be honest, has always been my issue with that scenario.

If Daro was Illuminated he'd be able to get past the examiners, but he wouldn't ping on Sense Chaos, which might be more fun in the scenario. But... what if his Priest was Illuminated? The implications undermine social certainties. Is this an isolated incident or is there more to it? Does the Priest become a future enemy, or is this a trial-run of a Lunar plot to infiltrate non-Chaos cults? Will the players ever be able to answer these questions, or just be left feeling unsettled and paranoid?

On the original question - chaos-tainted infiltrators of urban centres need only to stay 15m away from Uroxi. In New Pavis, quite a few neighbourhoods would be unlikely to welcome Storm Bullies. Downtown, Suntown and Rich Hill could offer a fairly safe base.

A city ruler might be able to muster a group of SBs to use their talent, but good luck persuading the whole population to submit to testing. At best, you could vet small groups, like your personal guard, or prominent individuals - so chaos-tainted individuals would do well to keep a low profile and act through minions. More chaotic chaotics can just rely on dumb luck.

There's a question of prevalence here. How often does Sense Chaos ping? Uroxi will avoid places where they sense chaos so often that they can't find or fight all of it. Do Storm Bulls avoid cities where they've lost the fight?

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Adam Baxter said:

Uroxi will avoid places where they sense chaos so often that they can't find or fight all of it.

Or perhaps the permanent temptation is to run screaming straight for Dorastor, collapse with a migraine on arrival, and die of a nosebleed. Drunken and bad tempered? Just trying to dull their Chaos sense and pricking conscience.

🎶 It’s like a radio you can’t switch off 🎶
🎶 There’s no way to get peace of mind 🎶

[French Desperate WindChild]

 

On 2/12/2024 at 3:46 PM, Jeff said:

it is how the heck did an ogre become an initiate of a cult that hates Chaos!

I m always frustrated when I see inconsistency but the scenario did not shock me 🙂

my hypothesis:

this guy is a provoker, he loves distrub religious activities and take a lot of risks

as any ogre, he is good to infiltrate community.

we don't know where he was joined AA. But in all cases,

- the priests and others worshippers have not  any sense to detect his chaotic nature, even SB can fail, so why not AA or Orlanth. They have no power to unmask him. So yes, they can have a process, a check list or anything but...we know what tests our characters have to pass, not so terrible 🙂

- the god himself ? well it is just a god among others. Even if he is more aware about chaos thant some others, he is faillible ! ans if we follow the malkoni, he is just an... ancestor

On 2/12/2024 at 3:46 PM, Jeff said:

And that requires the initiate swear loyalty to their priest.

Oh sure !

Now what could he do to break loyalty and oath ?

Participate of an Ernalda constest ? no, after all if AA supplant other gods,in a air community, where a lot of light people participate, the god will be pleased (until maybe he discovers her wife is now cursed, but that's too late)

Join a community, socialize ? well he is a communication god !

Eating human flesh ? well trolls eat human flesh, AA may imagine that our guy wants to remove his humanity part to join more trollish darkness, or maybe he doesn't notice or don't care. I don't know what AA thinks about cannibalism (the true one, eating your own specie)

But what does happen if he doesn't respect his loyalties and oaths ?

Even the magic of Humakt cannot automaticaly fix any thing. In fact, the only thing I see that breaking oath could do is... bringing more chaos... The dream of any ogre, isn't it ?

This guy is designed for becoming a hero. Will become a champion, a priest, or anything.. except if our pcs see the truth and act again

 

 

 

 

 

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 2/11/2024 at 9:36 PM, Diadochoi said:

Ian, the runespell idea works well to protect the Temple, but do the cultists never come out of their sacred precinct into the city without some sort of magic protection active?

If not, does that not greatly limit what they can do? i.e. zero "integration" into society, so no possibility to act as a 5th column

My sense now is falling for a middle ground approach.

Sense Chaos being only rollable twice, Stormbulls comparatively rare, few Bullies having a high % in the skill, positive hits not being directional and perhaps could be spirits or other Chaos things rather than people...

It seems this would be enough to ensure secrecy in any large settlement, and become problematic only if the number of Chaotics grew. IE if many Stormbulls are getting hits then you can be pretty sure that 5%+ of the population are Chaotic now

But yes, what about their accommodation/base, and when they are asleep? Not all bases can be 15m or more below ground. So I'm keeping my spell that protects their sacred precincts so they can rest easy and perform rites etc. Outside of that for most of them it is a matter of avoiding Stormbulls etc, but since the False Form spell exists I've also invented another of shorter duration that Rune Level chaos cultists can use to temporarily suppress their taint from detection. (Troop of Stormbulls, or Praxians with several Stormbulls ride into town around a corner by surprise - I can't see powerful intelligent Chaos cultists having no ability to obscure themselves even if just temporarily.)

But this could be a spell lasting days, so yes, allowing Chaos Rune-Levels to infiltrate social or political groups even in a culture/settlement where Stormbulls are relatively frequent

Edited March 2 by Ian A. Thomson

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/2/2024 at 2:22 AM, Ian A. Thomson said:

Outside of that for most of them it is a matter of avoiding Stormbulls etc, but since the False Form spell exists I've also invented another of shorter duration that Rune Level chaos cultists can use to temporarily suppress their taint from detection. (Troop of Stormbulls, or Praxians with several Stormbulls ride into town around a corner by surprise - I can't see powerful intelligent Chaos cultists having no ability to obscure themselves even if just temporarily.)

But this could be a spell lasting days, so yes, allowing Chaos Rune-Levels to infiltrate social or political groups even in a culture/settlement where Stormbulls are relatively frequent

This seems like a sound move - in my Risklands campaign, there's this constant pressure of "well, this guy must be Illuminated or he'd be detected by Storm Bulls by now", and that's fine as long as it's one or two people, but beyond that, it starts to feel like a stretch.

It might also make sense if you lose all your chaotic powers and Chaos cult rune spells while under such a spell - you suppress them in order to pass undetected. (This also allows for nice cinematics when someone previously concealed reveals their TRUE FORM once combat is entered.)

Edited March 3 by Akhôrahil