BRP & Mythras: a comparison

[Runeblogger]

Some of you might find this comparison useful: two of the greatest D100 multi-genre systems out there right now. How do they compare?

https://elruneblog.blogspot.com/2024/03/mythras-vs-basic-roleplaying.html

🤔

[Lloyd Dupont]

I'd like to add a few quick relevant differences, as I see it (feel free to agree or disagree if I got it wrong ^_^)

• Powers (magic, sorcery, etc…) in both systems work quite differently. And same for monster powers (like an Angel 10D6 smite in BRP)
• Damage is somewhat reduced in Mythras. ex: Halberd: 3D6 in BRP, D10+1 in Mythras or 3D6+2 BRP disintegrator vs 2D10 Mythras disintegrator, also no double damage effect in Mythras
• AP is somewhat reduced in Mythras. ex: Mythras Dragon has 8AP instead of 12AP of BRP Dragon.
• Health is reduced in Mythras (no general HP, only localization), and bleeding is a lot more deadly in Mythras.
• Magic save, with BRP Resistance table wouldn’t work well in Mythras where POW don’t change that much, and opposed skill check resistance wouldn’t work well in BRP where each spell is its own skill (or no skill at all for Sorcery).
  • Initially I preferred the resistance table better (because one feels the oppressive power of high POW character), but in practice it's not so good as it greatly advantages lucky beginners. However, the high skill (> 100%) of an Archmage has the same effect (applies malus to save) and works just as well if not better.

Edited June 10 by Lloyd Dupont

[Runeblogger]

I totally agree. In general, Mythras is extremely cautious with damage. I may update the list with your input! Thanks!

[Ian Absentia]

On 6/10/2024 at 9:27 AM, Runeblogger said:

I totally agree. In general, Mythras is extremely cautious with damage.

Due in great part to the Special Effects that can often "jump the queue" to either amplify damage or declare another type of result that effectively ignores hit point tallies.  It purposely dials back the contest of attrition.

!i!

Edited June 13 by Ian Absentia
Addition of a relative pronoun for clarity

[clarence]

I always assumed BRP started with a single HP score, with damage adjusted to fit that. Then hit locations were added on top, adapting to the damage levels already in place. 

Mythras went straight to hit locations and set weapon damage accordingly. But I might be wrong. 

Oh, and good comparison @Runeblogger! I often hear GMs move Mythras’ Special Effects to BRP. And magic systems seem to flow both ways.

What is the BRP equivalent to Mythras Imperative? 

Edited June 11 by clarence

[Runeblogger]

2 hours ago, clarence said:

What is the BRP equivalent to Mythras Imperative? 

I guess the Basic Roleplaying Quickstart or the whole new BRP book, since it is also under the ORC license.

[clarence]

21 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I guess the Basic Roleplaying Quickstart or the whole new BRP book, since it is also under the ORC license.

Perfect, thanks! This version of the Quickstart seems to be published in 2001 and revised in 2009. Is that correct?

[g33k]

On 6/11/2024 at 5:44 AM, clarence said:

I always assumed BRP started with a single HP score, with damage adjusted to fit that. Then hit locations were added on top, adapting to the damage levels already in place. 

BRP was a stripped-down version of RuneQuest (RQ1 / RQ2 predated "BRP" as a general ruleset).  Hit-locations, with hp-per-location and armor per-location, were there in RQ at the start (alongside total-HP's).

BRP simplified that to total-HP's only.

Those original rules are available again via Chaosium, if you want to wallow in the gaming history ...   😉
 

 

On 6/12/2024 at 5:22 AM, clarence said:

Perfect, thanks! This version of the Quickstart seems to be published in 2001 and revised in 2009. Is that correct?

Note that the Quickstart booklet is, AFAIK, not released under the ORC license (if that's what you're wanting).

That said, there's nothing preventing you from using it as structural guidance:  the much more complete (but fundamentally the same) BRP:UGE rules seem to allow for just such a project.  You can freely use the BRP:UGE text, even copy/pasting into your own product; but not the Quickstart text, because it remains under traditional (c).

(something I considered submitting for the BRP Design Challenge (but ended up not having time for) was a BRP:UGE edition of the Quickstart to be released under the ORC license)

Edited June 13 by g33k

[clarence]

21 hours ago, g33k said:

BRP was a stripped-down version of RuneQuest (RQ1 / RQ2 predated "BRP" as a general ruleset).  Hit-locations, with hp-per-location and armor per-location, were there in RQ at the start (alongside total-HP's).

BRP simplified that to total-HP's only.

Those original rules are available again via Chaosium, if you want to wallow in the gaming history ...   😉
 

 

Note that the Quickstart booklet is, AFAIK, not released under the ORC license (if that's what you're wanting).

That said, there's nothing preventing you from using it as structural guidance:  the much more complete (but fundamentally the same) BRP:UGE rules seem to allow for just such a project.  You can freely use the BRP:UGE text, even copy/pasting into your own product; but not the Quickstart text, because it remains under traditional (c).

(something I considered submitting for the BRP Design Challenge (but ended up not having time for) was a BRP:UGE edition of the Quickstart to be released under the ORC license)

I probably knew that once, now that you mention it. RQ first, then BRP. 

An ORC version of the quickstart sounds perfect! It would be much easier to get into than the BRP:UGE. 

[Ian Absentia]

3 hours ago, clarence said:

An ORC version of the quickstart sounds perfect! It would be much easier to get into than the BRP:UGE. 

Boil it down to 16 pages and we're (almost) right back to where it started with the freebie that was included in the early-80s boxed sets.  I have to imagine that someone has already done this for their personal gaming group.

!i!

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Boil it down to 16 pages and we're (almost) right back to where it started with the freebie that was included in the early-80s boxed sets.  I have to imagine that someone has already done this for their personal gaming group.

!i!

The "concept" I was working on (only skullsweat invested, I think this thread is my first commitment of electron to device) was to pretty exactly mirror the existing (non-ORC) QS.

Minimalistic BRP rules, not far from that original 16-pager but taken from the BRP:UGE ORC-Licensed text (savagely edited-down, minimally-revised, new connecting bits so the document "flows" right, and polished-up in the new format).

Identify several action/adventure ensemble movies and/or popular series (at least one sci-fi, at least one fantasy, at least one real-world) of the 1990's-2010's, pick some readily-recognized action scenes, file off serial-numbers, and pre-gen PC's to play in each.

Wrap a cover around it.

DTRPG it for $4.99 or somesuch
(add a stripped-down "SRD" treatment of the QS; sell  include it in bundle, but also a separate item at PWYW with default/suggested price of .99 or somesuch, POD at cost + non-pwyw 99c or somesuch)



IMO, the original 16-page BRP wasn't really a viable "standalone" product, unless one was already into the system.  Those "worked examples" (in the current QS) do a lot of heavy lifting for the newbies (the MW/SW/FW booklets from the WoW boxset did even more, obviously!).  Without such, the Total  Noob has just that extra bit of obstacle... that doesn't need to be there.
 

Edited June 14 by g33k
close-paren)

[Ian Absentia]

29 minutes ago, g33k said:

IMO, the original 16-page BRP wasn't really a viable "standalone" product, unless one was already into the system. 

Agreed -- it was functionally a player handout at a time when not everyone at the table was expected to have bought the whole game.  And, of course, it was a promotion for other BRP-based games you could play.

Linking this back to the OP, what you've described is close to Mythras Imperative, which is pretty playable on its own two feet.  It's worth noting that even the Imperative document has been growing incrementally in recent years to include more genre-related details.

!i!

[g33k]

26 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

... what you've described is close to Mythras Imperative, which is pretty playable on its own two feet.  It's worth noting that even the Imperative document has been growing incrementally in recent years to include more genre-related details.

!i!

Oh hell yeah.

TDM's "Imperative" has much more long-term playability between its two covers (with no further game-mechanical material needed, just the classics:  pencil / paper / dice / imagination), than Chaosium's "Quickstart" has (unless you want to run a pretty gritty/grounded game, in which case either one could IMO run indefinitely-long campaigns).  OTOH, I can imagine someone new-to-BRP picking up the QS and playing 45ish minutes later, but I cannot really picture that for Imperative.

Neither company has taken a "wrong" strategy(*), IMHO; but they are different strategies.



(*) except Chaosium has taken a "wrong" strategy (once again IMHO) in not already having produced just such a "Quick ORC" product, q.v.:

40 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

...  And, of course, it was a promotion for other BRP-based games you could play.

 

[Raleel]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Minimalistic BRP rules, not far from that original 16-pager but taken from the BRP:UGE ORC-Licensed text (savagely edited-down, minimally-revised, new connecting bits so the document "flows" right, and polished-up in the new format).

if there was desire for this, I would be happy to host it at https://brpugesrd.xyz. I would even give it it's own subdomain. If someone wanted to keep it in their repo, I would be happy to incorporate it into the structure i have set up and manage the domain.

I have a markdown copy of the full doc https://github.com/raleel/basic-roleplaying-UGE/blob/main/BRP UGE ORC.md or the broken out for web page version https://github.com/raleel/brpugesrd

4 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Linking this back to the OP, what you've described is close to Mythras Imperative, which is pretty playable on its own two feet.  It's worth noting that even the Imperative document has been growing incrementally in recent years to include more genre-related details.

 

indeed it has. The current one is about 70 pages long. Out of the box one could very comfortably run a modern, space, or even a fantasy game. Classic Fantasy Imperative is a monster, and over 200 pages. 

[Simulacrum]

OTOH Chaosium has released a comprehensive system under ORC and MI is more like a starter set, playable but not complete enough to run a very fleshed-out campaign with (so buy the CRB) nor to use as a base to build a game with if you have publication in mind. You would have to write all the rules you need to cover what isn't in MI but if you respect the underlying architecture of Mythras system you are going to end up replicating many of the rules in Mythras CRB that are not ORC, and that's difficult territory to tread into. BRP has everything you need, it just may not all be to your taste. In which case ORC allows for free adaptation. That's a different challenge (or opportunity) compared to filling in gaps.

[Raleel]

Fortunately, we can take what we like from each now and mix and match. Honestly, kind of an embarrassment of riches 

[Simulacrum]

Indeed we can!

[g33k]

11 hours ago, Simulacrum said:

OTOH Chaosium has released a comprehensive system under ORC and MI is more like a starter set, playable but not complete enough to run a very fleshed-out campaign with (so buy the CRB) nor to use as a base to build a game with if you have publication in mind. You would have to write all the rules you need to cover what isn't in MI but if you respect the underlying architecture of Mythras system you are going to end up replicating many of the rules in Mythras CRB that are not ORC, and that's difficult territory to tread into. BRP has everything you need, it just may not all be to your taste. In which case ORC allows for free adaptation. That's a different challenge (or opportunity) compared to filling in gaps.

On the Gripping Hand, we have the example of M-Space:  IIRC it is built explicitly atop Imperative, not Mythras CRB.  It's the pre-ORC Imperative, too, which was even leaner and less featureful than the ORC'ed edition.

So we already have a published & successful game-line following exactly the model of development that you seem to see as a barrier...
 

...

But as noted, ORCishly dual-wielding BRP + Imperative is a pretty formidable combo!

[Simulacrum]

M-Space pre-dates ORC by some years, it's a 'Gateway' project - the principles of what you can do with that base rule set as a Gateway project back in 2016 or as an ORC project now are somewhat different. 

Edited June 16 by Simulacrum

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Simulacrum said:

M-Space pre-dates ORC by some years, it's a 'Gateway' project - the principles of what you can do with that base rule set as a Gateway project back in 2016 or as an ORC project now are somewhat different. 

Yes, but solidly demonstrates that the streamlined Imperative rules are a valid (and sometimes a preferable!) basis than the full/core rules.

[Simulacrum]

Of course they are valid - actually if you are heading in an entirely new direction like doing science fiction, I imagine having the slimmed-down basics from which to start would at very least be much more user-friendly. You are also less likely in that scenario to be missing the rules that are not in Imperative and needing to create new rules to cover, as you are instead writing things CRB didn't set out to do.  

[g33k]

14 hours ago, Simulacrum said:

Of course they are valid - actually if you are heading in an entirely new direction like doing science fiction, I imagine having the slimmed-down basics from which to start would at very least be much more user-friendly. You are also less likely in that scenario to be missing the rules that are not in Imperative and needing to create new rules to cover, as you are instead writing things CRB didn't set out to do.  

Each approach has a really solid use-case for the RPG developer/author:

• a stripped-down Imperative/Quickstart (minimal) ruleset, atop which you build
• an all-options-included general ruleset, which you edit-down to fit your use-case

Often, the best use-case is to use both:  minimal core to which you add highly-selective imports from the general rules; and maybe you need to add some of your own stuff, and maybe you don't...
 

Edited June 17 by g33k

[Simulacrum]

...Which is what I am working at (Mythras + BRP + own stuff). 

[Mugen]

On 6/13/2024 at 7:53 PM, g33k said:

BRP was a stripped-down version of RuneQuest (RQ1 / RQ2 predated "BRP" as a general ruleset).  Hit-locations, with hp-per-location and armor per-location, were there in RQ at the start (alongside total-HP's).

Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know when HP per location were introduced during the creation process of the first RQ edition.

Was it before ir after they decided to base global HP on CON and SIZ ?

Though it is logical to think global HP as a function of CON and SIZ came first, I'm quite confident some D&D players used localized HP before RQ was released.

[Ravenheart87]

On 6/28/2024 at 10:59 AM, Mugen said:

Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know when HP per location were introduced during the creation process of the first RQ edition.

Was it before ir after they decided to base global HP on CON and SIZ ?

Though it is logical to think global HP as a function of CON and SIZ came first, I'm quite confident some D&D players used localized HP before RQ was released.

OD&D Supplement II: Blackmoor had hit location rules. I'm pretty sure RQ's hit location originates from there, just as the percentile skills are rooted in Supplement I: Greyhawk's thief skills.