Distinctions between followers of various "Trade Gods" in play

[Memestream]

So let me begin by saying I read this article on Well of Daliath, and it was definitely helpful with regard to distinguishing the various "trade" deities from one another. 

To put it broadly, I took from it(and a lot of other sources) that Issaries is the most famous in this department because he's oriented around the medium of trade itself, which is communication in the very broadest sense, whether it be of goods, ideas, people, or otherwise. This suggests to me that followers of Issaries are the most diverse, but are also the most concerned with promoting trade for the sake of trade.

I loosely stereotype them in play as being talkative, nosey, busy-bodied, energetic, and possessed of wanderlust(at least relative to others of their homeland). They love to make a deal that benefits everyone, and love it even more if that deal benefits them just a bit more than everyone else. When I need to make them special, I just call on their regional background and transmit "the Issaries thing" through that lens, and it seems pretty easy to get a lot of mileage out of that approach.

 

Etyries seems to be more oriented around the merchant as a person and a profession. A 'typical' lunar compartmentalization which takes the already present idea and reflects it across the moon rune to embody the meaning of the bigger concept within the context of the Lunar pantheon, ethos, lifestyle, the way the concept/force embodies in a person within time(?), what have you. I don't really know what to think of her followers beyond that though, and I don't feel satisfied rendering them as 'like followers of Issaries, but down with the red.' My first thought is to make them considerably more dishonest and prone to predatory trade practices, operating in the same way a Dollar General does in Small Town, USA. I think this could make for some interesting situations, but I would prefer to start from a stereotype or quality that's a bit more 'value-neutral' if you know what I mean, then bring sheister/honest into it later in the process.

Argan Argar, trade falls under his tent because of his role as an interface between the Uz and the more nebulous facets of Darkness? The Glorantha Sourcebook is really tight lipped concerning Argan Argar. He beat Lodril and he's easier to reach than older more primordial deities, that's about all I know about him. I naturally assume those trading with his blessing are more trollish about how they do things, but surely there's a je ne sais quoi to him beyond that.

 

An Uz trader is a bit easier to make distinct, even with as little as I know about Argan Argar specifically. I'm at somewhat of a loss regarding Lunars though, particularly in how they would conduct themselves abroad. The argument that "trade is trade" is somewhat legit, but I'm ultimately fishing for some ideas on how to dash some flavor into how I render these sorts of characters in my game that I'm running at present. Especially given that the Issaries player's trade ambitions are proving a steady fulcrum for the direction of the party in general.

Edited May 17 by Memestream
Woops, this was intended for the Glorantha forum!

[Joerg]

The trade deities all have additional agendas.

Issaries is the Speaking God, of communication, and he also is the guide into the unknown, and the psychopomp (guide of dead souls) in the Underworld. Still, his cult mainly operates on the trading basis, with diplomacy and negotiation for ransom and Desert Tracking for lost pieces of Genert side hustles often requiring specialist. His role as patron of exchanging ransom might be underestimated.

Etyries was a "daughter of Issaries" - a mortal (possibly a demigoddess) who received enlightenment from Teelo Estara (the living, yet unascended Red Goddess) who set out on her own path of seeking insights, carrying the Issaries basics onward, and with the rise of the Red Moon her magics became subject to the Lunar cycle. (Do we know whether there were cyclical effects going on during Zero Wane?) Her special form of spell trading - trading the knowledge of spirit magic - becomes extra useful when applied by practitioners of the Red Goddess Lunar Magic of manipulating spirit magic.

According to Nick Brooke and friends, Etyries also revolutionized book-keeping and economical planning, especially in the Lunar Empire, but probably also contributing to the success of the Arrolian Lunars on the Janube River. There might be some slight parallels to the Kitori Shadowlords below.

 

Argan Argar might be the most martial of the trade deities - he is a spear fighter who overcame a Chaos foe (somewhere in Rinliddi IIRC, too). He was a Darkness god active on the surface world during the Storm Age and the Lesser and Greater Darkness, and his demigod son Ezkankekko throughout the Greater Darkness and the Gray Age, and Time.

Argan Argar is a protector, who set up the Shadow Plateau colony (originally in the Obsidian Palace built by Veskarthan/Lodril whom he chained) where he married Esrola, then active in Ralios (helping the Halikiv trolls) and Peloria (possibly in Yolp, helping them to deal with that local Lodril) and later on further north, probably contacting the Blue Moon Plateau. No idea how much of a presence his cult has in other troll communities (Tarmo, Errinoru Jungle, Borklak's Queendom under the Glacier, Jrustela).

The Only Old One set up a system of mutual protection and sharing of ever scarcer resources during the Greater Darkness and expanding that in the Gray Age, turning it to the way more optimistic SIlver Age in Kethaela, Kerofinela and Saird, as well as Halikiv, Yolp, Dagori Inkarth, and shortly after the Dawn also the Elder WIlds and probably Prax. The Argan Argar Shadowlords then were the Kitori, humans, trolls and other Theyalans willing to join the Nightcult and learning the shape-shifting of the Only Old One. They collected the Shadow Tribute and re-distributed that among the participants, distributing the small surplus productions of diverse nutrition improving everybody's nutrition, and providing a measure of protection to the participants in exchange for feeding the defenders. Tributaries falling behind in their contributions would face pressure to provide other forms of payment, but it was the Shadowlords who traveled the Chaos Wasteland between centers of survivals as the world began to reknit on Arachne Solara's web in the Silver Age.

If you look at the Dawn Survival Sites for central southern Genertela (in the appendices of the Guide, and an earlier version of that in History of the Heortling People), you will find various Elder Races protecting their own survival sites, plus a number of humans. The biggest group of humans were the Heortlings who survived in relative strength, the Esrolians who had survived hiding in the Obsidian Palace, and various other humans in Saird often only under direct protection of trolls, and sometimes called slaves of those trolls. Shadowlord protection doesn't come for free, but survival beats getting eaten or annihilated.

 

Players of these cults may take quite different roles, but they all share the use of the Harmony Rune for the communication magic. (This used to be the Issaries Rune aka Trade Rune, described as a combination of Mobility and Harmony, indicating the movement of information, ideas and goods, which was shared by the cults under RQ3 rules. RQG turned this back to the Cults of Prax catalogue of runes.)

The merchant occupation in RQG assumes that a character in the merchant occupation goes about echanging and transporting goods, making a slight profit out of each transaction, at least in the long run. The range of this activity varies - you have the local trade (Harst aka Spare Grain) who distributes surplus and exchanges cash crops for basic living requirements (e.g. for the orchard-tenders in Apple Lane), you have the caravanserai andlocal market managers who interact with the Spare Grain network to accumulate cash crops and to interface with the caravan merchants (the Garzeen subcult), and you have the caravan merchants who may travel into distant lands to acquire exotic goods and hard-to-get essentials and luxuries required in ceremony and diplomacy.

Among the sample characters, Harmast shows a follower of Issaries who gallivants about, with a reputation as a duelist, but honoring Issaries in his choice of the Pavic "mule" aka the cavalry zebras, mixed breeds between war zebras and horses similar to the original mules,

(The Zebra riders established by Joraz Kyrem using Issaries magics have become the diplomats among the tribes of Prax (although the ransoming of Praxian captives using Morokanth might be rivalling the zebra intermediaries).)

Edited May 17 by Joerg

[mfbrandi]

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Edited May 17 by mfbrandi
content not wanted here

[Brian Duguid]

Just five days to go and people will be able to read the Etyries write-up in The Lunar Way. But I think it's fair to say now that it is presented very differently from Issaries. At a purely magical level, only Issaries has the magic to protect Markets, Etyries does not. Instead, her worshippers are the trade agents of the Empire: they run the caravans, they establish trading posts in other territories, they coordinate the trading bureaucracy inside Lunar territory. So from a character perspective, I'd suggest they always have the interests of the Lunar Empire in the back of their mind, and that will inform what they do.

[Ynneadwraith]

@mfbrandi Build a god out of dead hyenas, you say?

Proper heroquest material, if you fancy a read.

[Squaredeal Sten]

My own take on Argan Argar filtered through my Kitori adventurer, is that Argan Argar is primarily the intermediary between Uz and " the surface".  In this role my P.C. is a trader between Uz and humans, but also to some extent a diplomat.  And he wants to be a better exemplar of Argan Argar, as all of our Adventurers want to be better imitators of their gods, so he also protects those who ask for it, and others he deals with, as Argan Argar did during the Great Darkness.  He is not completely altruistic in this,  hoping to establish obligations which will lift the Kitori out of their current marginal status.  And also improve the Uz image among humans, from someone who may eat you to powerful fighters against Chaos, establishing common ground and peace with humans.

Differences from the Issaries traders include:  Fewer Rune spells, as Argan Argar has fewer worshippers.  No Market spell nor Path Watch, and no cult based  magical knowledge of magic items.  More combat power, because he can summon Darkness Elementals; but that is not a trade matter.    And the AA take on trade is " equal exchange", indicating less emphasis on profit and more on fairness, whatever that means in practise.  This indicates that that AA is less effective as a general trader, instead his niche is trader between the Uz and everyone else.  Luckily the Uz produce a wide range of exotic goods, which puts the rare AA in a monopoly or oligopoly situation in most markets on the outbound legs of his trips.

 

Edited May 17 by Squaredeal Sten
elementals

[Jeff]

Just now, Squaredeal Sten said:

My own take on Argan Argar filtered through my Kitori adventurer, is that Argan Argar is primarily the intermediary between Uz and " the surface".  In this role my P.C. is a trader between Uz and humans, but also to some extent a diplomat.  And he wants to be a better exemplar of Argan Argar, as all of our Adventurers want to be better imitators of their gods, so he also protects those who ask for it, and others he deals with, as Argan Argar did during the Great Darkness.  He is not completely altruistic in this,  hoping to establish obligations which will lift the Kitori out of their current marginal status.  And also improve the Uz image among humans, from someone who may eat you to powerful fighters against Chaos, establishing common ground and peace with humans.

Differences from the Issaries traders include:  Fewer Rune spells, as Argan Argar has fewer worshippers.  No Market spell nor Path Watch, and no cult based  magical knowledge of magic items.  And the AA take on trade is " equal exchange", indicating less emphasis on profit and more on fairness, whatever that means in practise.  This indicates that that AA is less effective as a general trader, instead his niche is trader between the Uz and everyone else.  Luckily the Uz produce a wide range of exotic goods, which puts the rare AA in a monopoly or oligopoly situation in most markets on the outbound legs of his trips.

 

Remember what MOST of Argan Argar's worshipers are:

• Esrolians. Argan Argar is a husband deity of Ernalda, and the link between Esrolia and their troll allies. 
• Trollkin. Among the trolls, Argan Argar is worshiped by countless trollkin as the Lord of the Surface World. Trollkin worshipers likely outnumber dark trolls 5 to 1 or more.

[Squaredeal Sten]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Remember what MOST of Argan Argar's worshipers are:

• Esrolians. Argan Argar is a husband deity of Ernalda, and the link between Esrolia and their troll allies. 
• Trollkin. Among the trolls, Argan Argar is worshiped by countless trollkin as the Lord of the Surface World. Trollkin worshipers likely outnumber dark trolls 5 to 1 or more.

Yes indeed.  The human half of the  Kitori are a tiny minority in Glorantha and a special case in a lot of ways. Having been the targets of a pogrom in living memory, and with a unique history.

Trollpack has a nice Uz Argan Argar merchant.  I don't think anyone has published good character portraits of spear- kin or of human Esrolian AAs.

Edited May 18 by Squaredeal Sten
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[g33k]

6 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

... I'd suggest [Etyries] always have the interests of the Lunar Empire in the back of their mind, and that will inform what they do.

IMG, a small (but non-trivial) portion of Etyries merchants are covertly Imperial agents as their primary role, with "merchant" essentially just being their cover-ID (it's not that there are zero Issaries merchants working to advance Orlanthi causes (or AA merchants advancing Uz) as their primary goal; but the percentage of "covert agent first, merchant second" is much higher for Etyries IMG).

This isn't entirely a secret; but almost nobody (outside the Lunar intelligence service) knows for sure which are the agents & which are just merchants.  Etyries' mercantile  role is important-enough that most places don't feel that they can do without what Etyries brings, so they put up with the situation (with varying degrees of grumbling & resentment); even Sartar -- only recently freed from the Lunar yoke! -- accepts Etyries and offers full protection on the Royal Roads.

The Etyries merchants themselves tend to grumble a bit and be resentful:  they know the distrust and resentment makes their job just that much harder, their bargaining that much more challenging).

YGWV!

[Memestream]

Okay the AA stuff is really helpful, especially the Esrolian tie-ins, and that makes a lot of sense. It conjures forth images of trollkin desperately running around trying to meet quotas to stay out of the food bracket in service of dark troll "mafiosi" who make their presence felt when one of their runts gets robbed or cheated. The sort of traders humans would only deal with from a position of established strength or total desperation.  The stuff about equal exchange and the martial qualities of AA's part in the mythic history makes me think of them as hidebound and undynamic traders who might become easily upset and look to means outside of the market when they are outcompeted. I don't know if any of that is intentional, but it sounds like something I could spin entertainment out of and seems like it would be a decent way to portray at least some uz traders!

The mention of followers of Etyries as innovators in the realm of bookkeeping, accounting, and bureaucracy(I can never spell that word, that's how much I hate the idea behind it) pairs nicely with other impressions I have about Peloria under the Lunar Empire even if it's not canonical, and also works well with my ideas concerning the way imperial power structures enfranchise people cheap and then wring them dry with hidden fees and rising costs down the line. I think it could be really interesting to posit them as on the forefront of more complex credit structuring within Genertela. Everybody seems to understand the idea of a favor, but the sudden introduction of interest into the equation strikes me as ripe for drama.

[Nick Brooke]

I’ve spoken elsewhere about evangelical Etyries merchants working to introduce futures contracts, derivatives, high-frequency trading and stock options into a previously Bronze Age economy. Essentially they keep gibbering on about stuff that makes no sense to a traditional Issaries merchant, but among them it works - they’re the harbingers of a new economic paradigm, and if that means trading in the concept of the discounted future revenue stream from a monopoly on pork bellies in Balazar is easier than trogging on over to Elkoi and buying them yourself, why wouldn’t you do that? (Everyone else thinks they’ve inhaled too much cult incense… but those ladies are making bank!)

[g33k]

11 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

... evangelical Etyries merchants working to introduce futures contracts, derivatives, high-frequency trading and stock options ...

Until Argrath the Regulator comes along, and bursts their economic bubble?

[scott-martin]

22 minutes ago, g33k said:

Until Argrath the Regulator comes along, and bursts their economic bubble?

The last time I reviewed that section of the overall crisis contingency framework (dba "the great sorting"), the girls said something that would terrify many fans: "IBG YBG." It means something. Something important. She will make a beautiful fossil.

I could bloviate on but since I took over the options desk next door we are making mad bank betting on tomorrow's die rolls. There seem to be quite a few "lost" trade gods consolidated under the ISSARIES cult umbrella though. Wonder if any of them gets recapitalized and spun out again in the hero wars. 

 

[Ynneadwraith]

I very much like the idea of differentiating the Trade Gods by how they approach trade.

Argan Argar is more 'diplomacy through trade' and expects an honest and equitable appraisal for all parties. To try and swindle, or generate excess profit is offensive. I give you something you want, you give me something I want. Everyone's happy. Think of it more as reciprocal gift giving, rather than what we'd understand as trade. Trade is a means to enact diplomacy, and build bridges.

Issaries is more of a market trader. You will be expected to haggle*, but not excessively. This is more of a formality than a method to get one over on the person you're trading with. You want things they have, they have things you want. Let's come to some sort of arrangement. This is the meat and bones of Issaries trade. Trade is a means to exchange things around the community.

Etyries is more of a startup entrepreneur, and it's about making it into the big leagues (playing on the improved social mobility of Lunar culture compared to others). The onus of determining if goods are of high quality lies with the buyer (unlike Argan Argar, where it's offensive to misrepresent your goods), and if you get swindled then that's just part of the game (unlike Issaries, where that's generally frowned upon). Trade is a means to better your social position.

Loads of opportunities for tense or comedic moments here. For instance, here's an example of an Argan Argari merchant attempting to trade in an Issaries market for the first time.

[Nick Brooke]

Etyries innately understands both Lunar and market cycles. Through Divination, she warns that the current White Bull market will soon turn into a White Bear market, and caveat emptor. (Not that she speaks Latin, as that would be anachronistic and inappropriate.)

[Ali the Helering]

Going back to the ancient and tremendously fun days of the original Gods of Glorantha, I did love the Lokarnos Divine magic "Hie Wagon" which had the potential of turning a wheeled vehicle into a relativistic kinetic warhead.  Even the enlo schiltrom can't come close....

[Memestream]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

I’ve spoken elsewhere about evangelical Etyries merchants working to introduce futures contracts, derivatives, high-frequency trading and stock options into a previously Bronze Age economy. Essentially they keep gibbering on about stuff that makes no sense to a traditional Issaries merchant, but among them it works - they’re the harbingers of a new economic paradigm, and if that means trading in the concept of the discounted future revenue stream from a monopoly on pork bellies in Balazar is easier than trogging on over to Elkoi and buying them yourself, why wouldn’t you do that? (Everyone else thinks they’ve inhaled too much cult incense… but those ladies are making bank!)

Yeah, the more I hear and the longer I think about it, the more I like it. It also seems to fit with the idea that she was originally a literal bean counter prior to her encounter with TRG.

It strikes me not only as grist for individual encounters between followers of Etyries and adventurers, but as reasonable narrative material for Orlanthi and Lunars alike. It's easy to imagine whole adventures centering around either disrupting or establishing these bizarro credit economies. 

 

1 hour ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Argan Argar is more 'diplomacy through trade' and expects an honest and equitable appraisal for all parties. To try and swindle, or generate excess profit is offensive. I give you something you want, you give me something I want. Everyone's happy. Think of it more as reciprocal gift giving, rather than what we'd understand as trade. Trade is a means to enact diplomacy, and build bridges.

Okay that's not what immediately came to my mind, but I can see how that fits much more in line with the broader darkness/uz mindset, and represents an ideology that amiable relations are based on mutual benefit more than sentimental affinity for one another, or alternatively a ritualized way of communicating the awareness that given the strength of the parties involved, it would be better to trade than to take.

Speaking of, I dug even deeper on AA and that only made things more nebulous. It seems his accomplishments are more or less all relative to trolls interacting with the surface and the races on it, plus the Lodril building the obsidian palace for him thing, at least as I've read so far. This makes me feel more comfortable representing his followers broadly and according to whatever would be the best fit for the narrative demand at hand in a way similar to how I handle followers of Issaries.

 

EDIT: Also, not necessarily germane to Glorantha, but it seems that the practice of compounding interest goes back pretty darned far, much further than I had imagined at least.

Edited May 17 by Memestream
tidbit about compounding interest in antiquity

[Jens]

58 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Lokarnos Divine magic "Hie Wagon"

Hie Wagon is still in the RBOM, now increases MOV by 1D10 rather than 1D10 meters per SR.

Edited May 17 by Jens

[Joerg]

14 hours ago, Memestream said:

Speaking of, I dug even deeper on AA and that only made things more nebulous.

The proper term to describe Argan Argar traders is "shady".

14 hours ago, Memestream said:

It seems his accomplishments are more or less all relative to trolls interacting with the surface and the races on it, plus the Lodril building the obsidian palace for him thing, at least as I've read so far. This makes me feel more comfortable representing his followers broadly and according to whatever would be the best fit for the narrative demand at hand in a way similar to how I handle followers of Issaries.

Argan Argar's activities through the Greater Darkness make him something like a Darkfore - an entity of Darkness providing aid to many struggling communities, and shelter in shadow. His are the secrets of the peaceful approach to other communities while carrying valuable stuff. Through his wife (Esrola/Asrelia) he has some access to the treasures in the ground.

[g33k]

One thing I don't see much of, above, is AA's whole Lodril/Spear/Trollkin thing.

IMG, AA is the guy who sells you cadre's of Trollkin spearmen, slingers, &c (and often, by extension, other mercenary forces).

Among other effects, this can -- and often does -- mean that AA trade-caravans are hugely-dangerous affairs for bandits:  the trade-goods will attack them.

[Joerg]

47 minutes ago, g33k said:

One thing I don't see much of, above, is AA's whole Lodril/Spear/Trollkin thing.

That's a bit problematic myth-wise, as there were no trollkin in Godtime, and there don't seem to have been spear-wielding trolls in any of the Gods War conflicts.

The Kitori might reach back into the Silver Age (and thus attainable in Godtime), and they did carry spears in their office as Shadowlords (holding the Kingdom of Night aka the Theyalan Civilization) together. To trolls, the adoption of humans or trollkin as associat fighters might not make that much of a difference.

No idea whether I want to subscribe to the idea of selling spearkin regiments (or even squads). They are near the top of the crop, just a step below values, and giving those away wholesale will cull the wrong end of your trollkin population.

[g33k]

On 5/18/2024 at 10:12 AM, Joerg said:

That's a bit problematic myth-wise, as there were no trollkin in Godtime, and there don't seem to have been spear-wielding trolls in any of the Gods War conflicts.

That's true;  nevertheless "Trollkin Spearmen" is a thing that AA is known for.  And thus, the niche of merchants that trades in (even if only "leasing") mercenaries.

As per the OP request:  it stands out vs. other trade gods.

 

On 5/18/2024 at 10:12 AM, Joerg said:

... No idea whether I want to subscribe to the idea of selling spearkin regiments (or even squads). They are near the top of the crop, just a step below values, and giving those away wholesale will cull the wrong end of your trollkin population.

The feature of "available thru AA" is the defining one, whether "sold" or "leased."

But isn't there some mention that (at least some Uz) actually do cull from the top, trying to make sure successful leaders don't rise up & lead  a  bunch of Enlo to freedom?

Maybe that's one of the ways AA differs from other Uz:  liking & encouranging lots of "value" Trollkin...

 

Edited May 19 by g33k

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, g33k said:

But isn't there some mention that (at least some Uz) actually do cull from the top, trying to make sure successful leaders don't rise up & lead  a  bunch of Enlo to freedom?

Maybe that's one of the ways AA differs from other Uz:  liking & encouranging lots of "value" Trollkin...

That's actually the weirder scheme of a human AA merchant I used to play - acquire food caste trollkin and sift them for any talents that ended in there for being uppity, and use the rest in waste disposal (e.g. removing debris from mining by eating it, or even gnawing tunnels under supervision of foreman trollkin).

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

That's true;  nevertheless "Trollkin Spearmen" is a thing that AA is known for.  And thus, the niche of merchants that trades in (even if only "leasing") mercenaries.

As per the OP request:  it stands out vs. other trade gods.

 

The feature of "available thru AA" is the defining one, whether "sold" or "leased.".......

Trading for spearkin would be a good habit for any successful  Argan Argar trader.  You get NPCs who are useful outposts at night, guards any time, may have other skills and talents, who also work cheap and "should" respond positively to halfway decent treatment. 

Yes you have to train and discipline them, but isn't that an AA soecialty even if it is not currently on the character sheet? 

Adventurers don't need an army of soearkin.  Even one can be useful and a squad could enhance your adventures.

Yes folks prejudiced against trolls or previously annoyed by wild trollkin may react negatively.  But overcoming burdens of prejudice is not a new problem.

 

 

Edited May 19 by Squaredeal Sten
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[Erol of Backford]

For what it's worth some samples, Casper Godsman, YOBoDR - Darkness p.04 has him and his duck sidekick. Very interesting guy. Takes trade goods through siege lines and to Hazard Fort and beyond.

Rockheart Veinseeker 

Jon Mith Priest of Issaries, in his younger days went to Balazar over Bagtrap's Pass but now he runs an inn in Jonstown, I think. His wife is a Rune Lord of Issaries.

Do old troll traders open grog shops? Also the Argan Argar do have cool sunglasses which you'd think would sell well in Prax especially if they had a farsight matrix on them?

If trolls had an inn, in say Crabtown, would not the AA manage it or would they, not trusting themselves, let an Issaries mechant run it? Might be the case if it caters to non-trolls...

There is Rockheart Veinseeker a dwarf trader (Griffin Mt. p.101 & 155) a Priest of Mostali but really doesn't have much along the lines of the Issaries spell capabilities. What would a dwarf trader be like in current RQ and are there sources for any? In old RQ3 there are dwarf merchant starting abilities (Elder Secrets p.19) but they used sorcery, only sort of "worshiped" Mostal.

Interesting thought: could a dwarf be an Issaries merchant or better yet an AA merchant? Dangerous yes but this is Glorantha right?