zoomzoombug Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 If Lhankor Mhy is Buserian, and Buserian is among the sons of Yelm, does that mean Lhankor Mhy is a son of Yelm? I understand Gloranthan gods can have contradictory parentages, but the implication that Lhankor Mhy is a piece of Yelm seems important and unexplored. Maybe GRoY is just inaccurate in numbering Buserian among the sons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) From the Well https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lhankor-mhy-in-central-genertela/ - Quote Isn’t Buserian the 3rd son of Yelm? Lhankor Mhy is sometimes said to be a son of Acos and Orenoar, sometimes of Yelm. Doesn’t really matter, as both genealogies convey truths. Remember, there is no planet called Buserian in the sky. Which is raises some big questions about Plentonius’ genealogies, doesn’t it. Edited June 15 by Jens 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomzoombug Posted June 15 Author Share Posted June 15 19 minutes ago, Jens said: From the Well https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lhankor-mhy-in-central-genertela/ - Ah, thank you. now who is Zator, who Buserian replaced? And who is Buserian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Zator is a son of Yelm, and is associated with a celestial object. First into the Pit, he doesn’t seem to be worshipped. Buserian is the Yelmic name for the entity known to the Orlanthi and Malkioni as Lhankor Mhy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Biles Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Lhankor Mhy is both Yelm's son and Mostal's son. Therefore, Yelm and Mostal made Lhankor Mhy in a prototype of the tech Dwarves use to reproduce. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Zator is probably related to Dayzatar and Zaytenera(s), a face of the Red Goddess. Part of the problem with Plentonius's genealogies is that of the Ten sons of Yelm Two seem to be descended from Dayzatar and Lodril The Pelandans believe they were the children of Entekos before Brightface started shining There's a Dara Happan heresy - that Plentonius seems to have been aware of - that connects them to the Dragon Burbustus - Yelm probably slew the Dark Dragon and from its corpse liberated the planets. An interesting feature of Buserian's name is that Bus is the Dara Happan word for Cow. So his name could really be a title meaning the the "Marker of Cow(skins)" referring to their early methods of record keeping. My theory is that after Dayzatar retreated beyond the Sky (courtesy of Umath), the Buserian were those whose strove to mantain contact with him through astrology and record keeping. Eventually their description somehow became the name of their God. If anything, the Buseri would say that they worship Dayzatar as he once was and not now is. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomzoombug Posted June 15 Author Share Posted June 15 8 hours ago, metcalph said: Zator is probably related to Dayzatar and Zaytenera(s), a face of the Red Goddess. Part of the problem with Plentonius's genealogies is that of the Ten sons of Yelm Two seem to be descended from Dayzatar and Lodril The Pelandans believe they were the children of Entekos before Brightface started shining There's a Dara Happan heresy - that Plentonius seems to have been aware of - that connects them to the Dragon Burbustus - Yelm probably slew the Dark Dragon and from its corpse liberated the planets. An interesting feature of Buserian's name is that Bus is the Dara Happan word for Cow. So his name could really be a title meaning the the "Marker of Cow(skins)" referring to their early methods of record keeping. My theory is that after Dayzatar retreated beyond the Sky (courtesy of Umath), the Buserian were those whose strove to mantain contact with him through astrology and record keeping. Eventually their description somehow became the name of their God. If anything, the Buseri would say that they worship Dayzatar as he once was and not now is. Would that make Lhankor Mhy Dayzatar or a manifestation/emanation of him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 15 hours ago, metcalph said: An interesting feature of Buserian's name is that Bus is the Dara Happan word for Cow. So his name could really be a title meaning the the "Marker of Cow(skins)" referring to their early methods of record keeping. My only doubt about this is the use of cow skins for writing where papyrus is available. My translation of his name would be sacrificer of bulls (or cows), a common low priestly role. Sky lore might still be involved. Zator gave birth to the stars. Buserian keeps the records. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 15 hours ago, zoomzoombug said: Would that make Lhankor Mhy Dayzatar or a manifestation/emanation of him? I would say he was a manifestation of Orenoar built by the Dwarves to fill her vacancy. Whether Lhankorings can join Dayzatar is something that depends on what the Dayzatar cult writeup says. I suspect from mention of the Rays of Piercing Truth (Lunar Way p95) that Illumination is a requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 (edited) On 6/15/2024 at 10:29 AM, zoomzoombug said: If Lhankor Mhy is Buserian, and Buserian is among the sons of Yelm, does that mean Lhankor Mhy is a son of Yelm? I understand Gloranthan gods can have contradictory parentages, but the implication that Lhankor Mhy is a piece of Yelm seems important and unexplored. Maybe GRoY is just inaccurate in numbering Buserian among the sons. No. Lhankor Mhy is the son of Acos and Orenoar. Buserian is a different deity with similar interests, who should never have been confused with Lhankor Mhy in my opinion. I hope to see Buserian properly fleshed out in the Sun Pantheon book in the future. Edited June 17 by Darius West Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 45 minutes ago, Darius West said: No. Lhankor Mhy is the son of Acos and Orenoar. Buserian is a different deity with similar interests, who should never have been confused with Lhankor Mhy in my opinion. I hope to see Buserian properly fleshed out in the Sun Pantheon book in the future. Buserian is a different incarnation of Lhankor Mhy, as is Tadenit (one of the Malkioni Founders), and probably others (especially in the East, but also among the urban Agimori). By their different associations they are somewhat separate entities, which may be tested as different under certain circumstances, but their runic identity is the same, and as a consequence their magic overlaps greatly. Cult structure and role in their respective societies might be different. Hardly any Orlanthi Lhankor Mhy has the same grounding in Celestial Lore as the Buseri have by default. Hardly any Buserian initiate understands Orlanthi lawspeaking through cases of precedence without remedial studies. The secrets of writing magical tomes on the living skin of flayed humans have (mostly) been lost when the Vadeli victims allied with the Mostali against the Tadeniti. There is nothing wrong with redefining a cult as published in CoRQ for the cultural context you play in. You might even add a secondary rune, like Fire for Buserian when it comes to Starseers. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 3 hours ago, Darius West said: No. Lhankor Mhy is the son of Acos and Orenoar. Buserian is a different deity with similar interests, who should never have been confused with Lhankor Mhy in my opinion. I hope to see Buserian properly fleshed out in the Sun Pantheon book in the future. Given that Buserian is a Pelorian name for what the Theyalans call Lhankor Mhy, I think you are going to be waiting a long time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Of course, some of the divine genealogy questions might just be that Plentonius (and his generation of scribes) absolutely needed the Knowing God to be the son of Yelm for mundane reasons. They associated him with a lost planet (not present in the heavens) and convinced themselves of this. By the Second Age, their concerns were not relevant, and Buserian became the son of Acos and Orenoar, and any planetary angle was allowed to disappear. The word "buseri" remained, but it means "scribe". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 According to my knowledge, I make out the following extant cults of the Knowing God Lhankor Mhy. We all know what he's like. He's apparently worshipped in Fonrit - there's a knowledge temple in Abbakar Guide p555 and there are no knowledge gods among the Glorious Ones. I like to think the Pamaltelan worshippers of Lhankor Mhy ascribe to the teachings of the Lord of the World's Knowledge (CoR: Earth Goddesses p116) and seek the Pamalt Rune rather than the Sky. Irrippi Ontor. Sure there will be some sages who say they worship Burserian instead but any differences will be small. More depends on what the cult of Dayzatar is like. Chaquandarath. Worshipped primarily in the Eastern Isles, although I like to think that the cult has migrated to other parts east, such as Teleos and Maslo. They do not concern themselves with worldly knowledge but that of the High Gods and making them known to the others. This doesn't mean that the Masloi and the Teshnans would know Vithelan names but the knowledge priests of those lands would use the local names of similar gods in their teachings, such as Cronisper or Zitro Argon. (Zitro Argon): Described as the God of Ascetics. Much depends on the Dayzatar cult writeup and how his cult interacts with scribal gods. Vashanti: Worshipped in Kralorela. IMO he's not so concerned with astrology or the aquisition of knowledge but with administration being more like Mandarins. His sorcery spells would be spells like Count, Assay and Weigh. Thus they could count the number of people in a city, weigh the amount of rice in the fields or assay the amount of precious metal in a vein. Some may have been imported to Peloria (LW p79) 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 (edited) 18 hours ago, Darius West said: I hope to see Buserian properly fleshed out in the Sun Pantheon book in the future. It seems you will have to do this on your own, but I think it makes a lot of sense. Even if Buserian = Lhankor Mhy, that doesn't mean that The Cult of Lhankor Mhy = The Cult of Buserian - there can be all kinds of differences in worship, mythology, theology, magical access, and so on. In the ancient world, maybe you decide that Jupiter Optimus Maximus, Zeus Lykaios, Zeus-Ammon and Hadad are all actually ultimately the same transcendent entity. But it seems odd to me to think that you only have to write up a single cult that covers all of them - these cults are very different in practice. "The Cult of Orlanth" is as though we had a "Cult of *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr". Maybe it's useful as a rules construct, but... Edited June 18 by Akhôrahil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 17 hours ago, Jeff said: Given that Buserian is a Pelorian name for what the Theyalans call Lhankor Mhy, I think you are going to be waiting a long time. Then I'll have to do it myself. I don't accept that Buserian is Lhankor Mhy, any more than I can accept that Elmal is Yelmalio. It just ain't so. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 (edited) 20 hours ago, Joerg said: Buserian is a different incarnation of Lhankor Mhy So, who died? Buserian or Lhankor Mhy? And how? Sorry I think we can do better on this issue. Edited June 18 by Darius West Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 1 minute ago, Darius West said: Then I'll have to do it myself. I don't accept that Buserian is Lhankor Mhy, any more than I can accept that Elmal is Yelmalio. It just ain't so. You are welcome to believe what you want in your Glorantha and do what you want with it. But that's not how it is going to work in published materials, future licensed materials, etc. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 1 hour ago, Darius West said: So, who died? Buserian or Lhankor Mhy? And how? A god doesn't need to die in order to incarnate. The concept of pluripresence is explained in Arcane Lore. Several of the pre-incarnations of the Red Goddess coexisted. A mortal might have to die before he can re-incarnate, but think about 5 parallel re-incarnations of Arkat. Maybe the concept of a Kaelith (in the Xeotam dialogues) makes a difference there. 2 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 1 hour ago, Joerg said: A mortal might have to die before he can re-incarnate, but think about 5 parallel re-incarnations of Arkat. Also, whatever the heck Ralzakark is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 3 hours ago, Joerg said: Several of the pre-incarnations of the Red Goddess coexisted. Well, the RG is played by Elsa Lanchester in the movie in all our heads, right? What sort of child has seven mothers? Only a cut and shut. Spoiler 1 Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Godspeed Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 16 hours ago, Darius West said: It just ain't so. Alduin ent Akatosh! Sorry, flashbacks to the Elder Scrolls fandom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali the Helering Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 11 hours ago, mfbrandi said: Well, the RG is played by Elsa Lanchester in the movie in all our heads, right? 'Fraid not. Given her effect on oppressive powers, I'm going for Stormy Daniels🤪 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 On 6/18/2024 at 8:53 PM, Akhôrahil said: It seems you will have to do this on your own, but I think it makes a lot of sense. Even if Buserian = Lhankor Mhy, that doesn't mean that The Cult of Lhankor Mhy = The Cult of Buserian - there can be all kinds of differences in worship, mythology, theology, magical access, and so on. Agreed. The Cults will be different even if the deity is potentially the same. I just don't think Buserian is LM. On 6/18/2024 at 8:53 PM, Akhôrahil said: In the ancient world, maybe you decide that Jupiter Optimus Maximus, Zeus Lykaios, Zeus-Ammon and Hadad are all actually ultimately the same transcendent entity. But it seems odd to me to think that you only have to write up a single cult that covers all of them - these cults are very different in practice. "The Cult of Orlanth" is as though we had a "Cult of *Dyḗus ph₂tḗr". Maybe it's useful as a rules construct, but... Deities have aspects. I accept that. Deities can also be worshipped very differently in different parts of the world, too. However, how many warrior deities do we have that are different, and how many knowledge gods do we have who are different? It seems super lazy that we have to pretend that Buserian is the same as Lhankor Mhy. You can bet if he were a warrior deity, Buserian wouldn't be treated with such dismissive disdain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 2 hours ago, Darius West said: Agreed. The Cults will be different even if the deity is potentially the same. I just don't think Buserian is LM. I would be interested in how you would represent conflicting truths between two truth-seeking knowledge gods in play, then. Other than insisting that the two don't have their archetype in common. We have two non-Lhankor Mhy knowledge cults - Irrippi Ontor introducing new (mystical) Truths, and Thanatar devouring Truths and knowledge, hoarding it differently. 3 hours ago, Darius West said: Deities have aspects. I accept that. Deities can also be worshipped very differently in different parts of the world, too. However, how many warrior deities do we have that are different, and how many knowledge gods do we have who are different? It seems super lazy that we have to pretend that Buserian is the same as Lhankor Mhy. You can bet if he were a warrior deity, Buserian wouldn't be treated with such dismissive disdain. It is Yelmalio vs. Kargzant all over again. RuneQuest Canon insists that Kargzant is the same as Antirius, that Elmal is the same as Yelmalio. No idea yet where Golden Bow and Hastatus are going to land between Yelm and Yelmalio, but then Yelmalio is a fragment of Yelm. We have other spear warrior gods - Argan Argar, Lodril (and other Earth Walkers), Vangono, to name just a few. There are two distinct sword warrior cults - Humakt and Tolat. Plus various other deities loaning the Sword from Humakt, but never Tolat (who loans his own red blade to friends and family). Buserian in the Lunar Empire has become a bit of a stepchild of Irrippi Ontor - a priesthood not subject to cyclical magic, but lacking the extras that IO brings. Buserian outside of the Empire would be the rare literate Pentans who might also be steeped in Kralori lore and influences. Buserian allows for Sages in a different dress than Lhankor Mhy - possibly with different rules for beards, and possibly a harder time for female sages given the highly patriarchal Solar environment that acknowledges Buserian. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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