Trolls Chaos Ghouls

[Erol of Backford]

So there is the trollkin issue, many troll births are cursed resulting in trollkin. There is the cave troll chaotic taint. (I suppose this is similar to the Telmori having a slight chaotic taint?)

That being said it would seem that trolls are seemingly ok with "a little chaos" even though they go out of their way to destroy it.

They are also fond of some underworld magic. Skeletons, zombies and ghosts are part of the Zorak Zoran repertoire.

Are zombies not also mildly chaotic, are skeletons?

Curious if a hard core Zorak Zorani who may be a little more unhinged than the norm, might be ok with ghouls as servants or slaves? Of course they'd need to sort out the "brains" hunger thing if that applies to Glorantian ghouls? Maybe a crazy they are similar to Ajan Toranj from the old Huts of Darkness scenario in TotRM 09?

How does one get the Raise Ghoul ability like Brangbane the Ghoul King? Is it a Hero Quest ability?

Possibly a command spirit spell would force a spirit into a dead body and a ghoul would result? Would a Zorak Zorani that created a ghoul be able to command it or at least would said ghoul fear and mostly abide by the Zorani's wishes/commands?

I am interested in say a renegade Zorak Zorani using ghouls, as I am looking to populate a smaller cave complex maybe near Dekko Crevice or somewhere adjacent to a river with mountains at the periphery of Troll Woods? Thinking this cave might be adjacent to Solthi River, see red circle in clips below.

Is there a best/better map of troll woods?

Are there any random encounter tables, troll lands plus Wasp Riders and some chaos from the Foot Print - Foul Blood Forest. 

Any suggestions are appreciated.

 

[jajagappa]

46 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there a best/better map of troll woods?

Yes, but it's unpublished and in the Chaosium queue.

49 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

as I am looking to populate a smaller cave complex maybe near Dekko Crevice or somewhere adjacent to a river with mountains at the periphery of Troll Woods? Thinking this cave might be adjacent to Solthi River, see red circle in clips below.

That's a reasonable location - most of the Kitori live further north. 

Dekko Crevice is notoriously difficult to find as the Earth and its guardians keep it well-hidden. The hill/mount just east of Dekko Crevice is named Giant's Top, and it is ostensibly the head of a former mountain giant slain by the Storm Gods in the Godtime. 

Dekko Crevice itself is home to Ty Kora Tek - whether she'd be happy with ghouls, I don't know. 

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are zombies not also mildly chaotic, are skeletons?

The Red Book of Magic describes the Create Zombie spell as having the runes of Darkness and Death and adds:

Quote

Zombies do not have the spirit of the
original owner bound to them; instead, they are mindless
magical constructs, like animated skeletons.

p38

This means that the Zombies described in the Glorantha Bestiary (INT 3d6 * 1/2, understand local human speech 25%) are not Zorani Zombies.

That said, there is some shady area in the Uz use of undead and Unlife.  A vampire was happily existing in the Troll Hills for many years and the less said about Bliss in Ignorance the better.  Considering that Zorak Zoran is not strictly opposed to chaos but is rather "the mindless explosion of fear and frenzy against both Order and Chaos, which finds its only justification and satisfaction in unlimited violence" (Prosopedia p142), I can easily see them co-existing with ghouls.

 

 

[PaulJW]

Raise Ghoul used to be a specialist Vivamort spell back in the day.  I suspect it will be again when the relevant cults book eventually comes out.

I would imagine that trolls avoid Ghouls because they are chaotic.  Zombies, Skeletons and Ghosts are not.

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So there is the trollkin issue, many troll births are cursed resulting in trollkin. There is the cave troll chaotic taint. (I suppose this is similar to the Telmori having a slight chaotic taint?)

That being said it would seem that trolls are seemingly ok with "a little chaos" even though they go out of their way to destroy it.

Trolls are all about Kin. Cave Trolls are Kin so are accepted by trolls, although most are solitary and not part of troll society. Even Zorak Zorani  treat Kin over Chaos.

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are zombies not also mildly chaotic, are skeletons?

Curious if a hard core Zorak Zorani who may be a little more unhinged than the norm, might be ok with ghouls as servants or slaves? Of course they'd need to sort out the "brains" hunger thing if that applies to Glorantian ghouls? Maybe a crazy they are similar to Ajan Toranj from the old Huts of Darkness scenario in TotRM 09?

How does one get the Raise Ghoul ability like Brangbane the Ghoul King? Is it a Hero Quest ability?

Possibly a command spirit spell would force a spirit into a dead body and a ghoul would result? Would a Zorak Zorani that created a ghoul be able to command it or at least would said ghoul fear and mostly abide by the Zorani's wishes/commands?

Zombies are not Chaotic.

Zorak Zorani could use Ghouls, although I think that Subere gets Command Ghoul, from memory. RQ3's Gods of Glorantha gives Subere "Special Divine Spells: Absorption, Attack Soul, Command [chonchons, ghosts, ghouls, hags, shades, hellions, lamias, all types of spirits, and wraiths]"

Brangbane's Raise Ghoul ability is a Heroic Feature, I think, so could be gained by an NPC, or an Adventurer.

 

 

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Zombies are not Chaotic.

Gark the Calm approves this message.

[soltakss]

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Zombies are not Chaotic.

Gark the Calm approves this message.

Cacodemon has Zombies, or used to in RQ2, but his Zombies are probably Chaotic, as are Vivamort's Zombies. So, in my opinion, Zombies derive their Chaotic or Non-Chaotic nature from the magic/cult that created them.

[metcalph]

21 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Cacodemon has Zombies, or used to in RQ2

I suspect that was done just to give Gondo an excuse for some undead nasties in his caravan.  These days I would have given Gondo some sorcery instead.

 

[Akhôrahil]

20 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So there is the trollkin issue, many troll births are cursed resulting in trollkin. There is the cave troll chaotic taint. (I suppose this is similar to the Telmori having a slight chaotic taint?)

That being said it would seem that trolls are seemingly ok with "a little chaos" even though they go out of their way to destroy it.

Depending, but yes. Cave Trolls are tolerated, at the very least.

I think it can be productive to differentiate between the outright Chaotic, and the merely tainted (Cave Trolls, Cursed Telmori). I don't think Storm Bulls necessarily haveto seek out and kill Telmori either, even if they certainly aren't fans.

20 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are zombies not also mildly chaotic, are skeletons?

Not when created by Zorak Zoran, apparently. It seems that with merely animated corpses (skeletons, zombies, revenants), Chaos is optional, while it's mandatory for "hungry" undead (ghouls, vampires).

20 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

How does one get the Raise Ghoul ability like Brangbane the Ghoul King? Is it a Hero Quest ability?

Possibly a command spirit spell would force a spirit into a dead body and a ghoul would result?

This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's also how the Barrow Wights in Tolkien work (the possessing spirit isn't the original owner of the body.) It doesn't have to be the way in order for it to be one way, either.

20 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am interested in say a renegade Zorak Zorani using ghouls, as I am looking to populate a smaller cave complex maybe near Dekko Crevice or somewhere adjacent to a river with mountains at the periphery of Troll Woods?

I don't think the main ZZ cult would approve of this, but it's not like they approve of most things.

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

Cacodemon has Zombies, or used to in RQ2, but his Zombies are probably Chaotic, as are Vivamort's Zombies. So, in my opinion, Zombies derive their Chaotic or Non-Chaotic nature from the magic/cult that created them.

I agree with this, and it seems to be Chaosium's line as well.

[Erol of Backford]

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

I suspect that was done just to give Gondo an excuse for some undead nasties in his caravan.

Makes me think he brought a Huan To (a smaller one) back from his travels, maybe it came to eastern Balazar and he smuggled it down to Sartar somehow? Then again, might have to rethink the ghoul association unless the Zorak Zorani themselves happens to have a chaos taint. It is close to the Foul Blood Forest and so there could be some link.

Curious how trolls could differentiate chaos ghouls and non chaos ghouls anyway?

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

Subere gets Command Ghoul

I see it, Command  (various types of underworld inhabitants) my trusty old boxed set #10 Troll Gods (might have been on the lower end in quality of the boxed sets, I did use the "on the road" section of Monster Coliseum a good bit so even it was a pour supplement we gave it good use...)

Thinking on a nice twist.

The Zorak Zarani Death Lord is the partner of a Subere Priest/Witch and they have a great troll or 2 a few cave trolls, 4-5 dark trolls and a bunch of trollkin.

Here is the hitch, they kill chaos out of the Print (that are not diseased) and then make ghouls, zombies, skeletons out of them and use them fight the other chaos in the print.

It'll take some development but might be fun.

Dead chaos killing chaos is a good thing?

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Makes me think he brought a Huan To (a smaller one) back from his travels, maybe it came to eastern Balazar and he smuggled it down to Sartar somehow?

Why would Brangbane need to go to Kralorela when Delecti unlives nearby?

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Curious how trolls could differentiate chaos ghouls and non chaos ghouls anyway?

Given they pretty much eat the same thing, I think the Trolls will be hard-pressed to think of ghouls as being evil.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 06:49 AM by metcalph

[Erol of Backford]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Why would Brangbane need to go to Kralorela when Delecti unlives nearby?

Wasn't thinking about Brangbane or Delecti, was thinking what could generate ghouls if not Zorak Zorani, Joerg mentioned Huan To and Soltakss, Subere and so the ghoul dilemma was resolved with a Subere priestess being there, in my mind.

As I see it now there are zombie scorpionmen, skeletal broo and ghoul whatever, etc assisting the trolls fight chaos coming up from the Print. They will of course raid into surrounding areas as they desire... thank you all. 

[davecake]

On 9/14/2024 at 5:49 PM, PaulJW said:

Raise Ghoul used to be a specialist Vivamort spell back in the day.  I suspect it will be again when the relevant cults book eventually comes out.

Yes, the draft version of Vivamort contains a Vampiric ritual (like most vampiric rituals, powered by POW from a sacrificed/consumed victim) that summons a ghoul spirit that possesses a corpse. I am not sure if there are any non-Chaotic ghouls. 

 

[Darius West]

Cave Trolls are a neglected part of Uz lore.  Certainly more neglected than their human equivalents, the ogres are, anyhow.  Do they have their own deity with its own tragic backstory?

[Joerg]

43 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Cave Trolls are a neglected part of Uz lore.  Certainly more neglected than their human equivalents, the ogres are, anyhow.  Do they have their own deity with its own tragic backstory?

Somehow they escaped getting their own deity, much like the other troll forms derived from the Dark Troll lineage. (Moorgarki's hot trolls are different.)

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Somehow they escaped getting their own deity, much like the other troll forms derived from the Dark Troll lineage. (Moorgarki's hot trolls are different.)

Do we know how trolls got a chaotic bloodline?

[Darius West]

On 9/15/2024 at 10:34 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Wasn't thinking about Brangbane or Delecti, was thinking what could generate ghouls if not Zorak Zorani,

I'm sure you know that Brangbane is the canonical daddy of all ghouls in Sartar.  Perhaps Brangbane is secretly a Huan To?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Do we know how trolls got a chaotic bloodline?

Victims of Pocharngo the Mutator became altered after fighting that foe. The lucky ones received Regeneration and passed that on to their descendants.

Spoiler

Weirdly enough, the trollkin children of the Rainbow Mounds coupling of a dark troll and a cave troll female seem to lack regeneration. Does the Curse of Kin trump Pocharngo's "gift"?