Classic Fantasy 2nd Edition Notes

[threedeesix]

Like many on this forum, I have been playing BRP for a long time. I think it was 1979 to be exact. Due to this fact there are some things that I just can't bring myself to change or drop just becouse I'm using one of the D100 licences. Things that were in the first edition of CF and I want to keep.

There will be hit locations. I like my combat lethal.

Total hit points with hit points per location: I'm not sure about this one. Not having the seperate set of hit points to keep track of along with the hit points in each location may be easier on the book keeping, but do you guys find it less lethal? Not really sure. Then again, In the last edition of CF, I assumed the use of double hit points for the player characters and was thinking against it this time through. So maybe...

There will be skill check boxes and the "use a skill to improve a skill" system. Due respect to the writers that have decided to change it to "skill improvements" handed out at the end of the game, but the skill system was one of the things that made BRP different than every other game out there. I can't part with it. I will be including it again, in "my own words" of course.

Here is the new layout, along with what has been completly rewritten so far.

Chapter 1: Introduction. Done, just need to finish the "example" script.

Chapter 2: Character Generation. Done.

Chapter 3: Races. Done.

Chapter 4: Classes. Done. Two new classes added, the Cavalier and Thief-Acrobat. These two along with the Barbarian from CF1 have finished the 1st ed. Unearthed Arcana classes.

Chapter 5: Skills. Done

Chapter 6: Equipment. Done

Chapter 7: Spells. I have not yet started converting the CF1 spells chapter yet. I'll need to rewrite all the spells that CF1 simply refered the reader to in BRP. For example all the "see BRP page XX" stuff. I also plan to add at least 100 more spells to the 150 I already wrote for CF1. I will be using pretty much the same system as before except rewritten. I will now have spells seperated into Magnitude 1 through 9 instead of Uncommon, Common, and Rare. Before I can begin the spell chapter I need to finish the combat chapter so I don't have to go back after and change all the spells when I realise I changed the combat system and now they don't work. Second book, lessons learned.

Chapter 8: Combat. 70% done. Will be finished this weekend.

Chapter 9: Adventuring. Will contain much that was in the CF Spot Rules chapter before. Not yet converted.

Chapter 10: Adventuring at Sea. Nothing yet, may just be subsumed into chapter 9.

Chapter 11: Between Adventures. Not yet converted. Will contain stuff that was in the Spot Rules chapter plus new stuff that was chopped for space reasons before.

Chapter 12: Experiance. Check the skill box. Use a skill to improve a skill. Training etc. Nothing done.

Chapter 13: NPCs. Finished for what was to be CFII (2nd book of first ed.) Just need to convert. Contains NPC classes like the assassin, anti-paladin, witch, and necromancer, as well as rules for the mundane masses. They are written but need conversion.

Chapter 14: Encounters. Finished for what was to be CFIII (3rd book of first ed.) Just need to convert.

Chapter 15: Monsters. 50% finished for what was to be CFIII (3rd book of first ed.) Just need to convert and fill in gaps.

Chapter 16: Treasure. 80% finished for what was to be CFII (2nd book of first ed.) Just need to convert and fill in gaps.

Chapter 17: The Realm. Maybe. Only about 20% done. My own setting for about 15 years, most is in my head.

Appendix 1: Deities and Demi-Gods of the Realm. Done. Just need to expand and reformat.

Appendix 2: Psionics. Maybe. If not for player characters, for monsters.

Appendix 3: Spell list. Have to finish spell chapter first.

Anyway, there it is. I cant give any idea as to when it will be ready. It will take time. I want to do a really complete playtest when more of the book is complete, but not yet. It least chapters 1 through 8.

It looks like it will be a BIG book. This may not be possible depending upon the publisher. I'll know better as I get closer to done and we have had a chance to really talk.

Rod

Edited February 1, 2013 by threedeesix
I should have my coffee before trying to convey information

[Agentorange]

I know I've probably missed this somewhere but if it's not gonna be BRP what is it going to be ? OpenQuest ? Legend ?

[threedeesix]

I know I've probably missed this somewhere but if it's not gonna be BRP what is it going to be ? OpenQuest ? Legend ?

I don't want to say at this point until things are finalized. But I will say... yes, yes it will.

Rod

[Agentorange]

good, excellent, I'm glad we cleared that up then

I must say I really can't fathom Chaosium out on this one. Maybe they don't want competition for magic world, but I would have bought both and I suspect lots of other people would to. So instead of making money from Classic Fantasy they're......going to let somebody else make money from it.

[RosenMcStern]

Chaosium has limited resources, so they cannot do _all_ things that customers will buy. This should explain everything I suppose.

Total hit points with hit points per location: I'm not sure about this one. Not having the seperate set of hit points to keep track of along with the hit points in each location may be easier on the book keeping, but do you guys find it less lethal? Not really sure. Then again, In the last edition of CF, I assumed the use of double hit points for the player characters and was thinking against it this time through. So maybe...

This has worked for RQ up until 4th edition, and I cannot see any reason why it should not work for CF. Someone will not appreciate it, but they have RQ6 and Magic World that they can play if they don't. Having a third solid fantasy ruleset that goest "the other way" is an opportunity, not a blind alley.

There will be skill check boxes and the "use a skill to improve a skill" system. Due respect to the writers that have decided to change it to "skill improvements" handed out at the end of the game, but the skill system was one of the things that made BRP different than every other game out there. I can't part with it. I will be including it again, in "my own words" of course.

With "due respect" already tributed, I disagree with the writers who think the experience check system is flawed. The skill tick system is prone to abuses, but we all know which techniques to use to avoid these abuses. Just write down these techniques very clearly in Classic Fantasy and you are okay. For instance:

- give out checks only for significant rolls; if a roll was called for explicitly for "skill improvement reasons", do not award the check

- when multiple characters can attempt a roll, a subsequent attempt cannot be made at a higher percentile than the previous oens [this prevents the "Professor Ross already made his Library Use roll this session, let us allow Bill the Muscleman to try first" issue, and also ensures that only characters who devote to a niche skill become competent in it, negating the "all characters become equal in the long run" syndrome]

... and so on.

Good luck with this new book. I am sure many gamers will like it.

[SDLeary]

There will be hit locations. I like my combat lethal.

Total hit points with hit points per location: I'm not sure about this one. Not having the seperate set of hit points to keep track of along with the hit points in each location may be easier on the book keeping, but do you guys find it less lethal? Not really sure. Then again, In the last edition of CF, I assumed the use of double hit points for the player characters and was thinking against it this time through. So maybe...

What about the "Location values as Major Wound thresholds" idea that many have floated? This way you can still have locations and locational effects, Major Wounds, and only manage a single set of points. The downside, is if you want more colorful results you have to create a small Major Wounds table for each location type.

OH! Have you moved to the 1HP/day of rest healing in your campaign?

SDLeary

[threedeesix]

What about the "Location values as Major Wound thresholds" idea that many have floated? This way you can still have locations and locational effects, Major Wounds, and only manage a single set of points. The downside, is if you want more colorful results you have to create a small Major Wounds table for each location type.

I used that idea in my home game for a few sessions and it worked nicely. I wouldn't include it as a core part of CF however as I feel it best to go with one of the established systems rather than add another one, if only to not further divide the D100 fan base. I may still house rule it in my own games however, at least from time to time.

OH! Have you moved to the 1HP/day of rest healing in your campaign?

I did that with the original CF as I used Total Hit Points (SIZ+CON) and it gave a more reasonable healing rate. I have yet to decide if hit points will be (SIZ+CON) or (SIZ+CON/2) yet. That will influence my decision.

I do know I am using locations with seperate hit points. I don't know if I also want a separate hit point total to keep track of or not. I have only played BRP with both sets of hit points.

It seems like it would be less lethal getting rid of the total hit points and just going with location hit points. After all, peppering a character with 2 points of damage to each location will kill a character with a separate hit point score (14 total damage), but not kill a character with only hit location damage to keep track of.

Im not saying that the latter wouldnt be better for a CF campaign. Just wondering the opinion of people that may have been using it for a bit.

Rod

Edited February 3, 2013 by threedeesix

[Mankcam]

I've been using the Hit Location HP as a 'Major Wound Threshold' for years now and it seems to work well. We don't reduce the Location HP at all, we just use it as an 'unlock' to see whether a character's actions become difficult or otherwise impaired. It's simple, as we only mark off Total HP, and I guess the characters are a bit more resilient than they would be if we marked off both Location and Total HP. The overall lethality is reduced, but not enough to become like mini-tanks. The idea of marking off both Location and Total HP is a bit too fiddly and too much book keeping for us anyway.

In some ways this approach also reduces the need for using SIZ+CON as HP as opposed to keeping it as (SIZ+CON)/2, due to the little extra resilience. This makes the stat block compatible with all the other BRP stat blocks, which is a good thing for versatility. I guess the Healing rate should be quicker than usual BRP if you want to emulate an old school classic fantasy setting, perhaps daily CON x 5% for a gain of 1 HP, or just grant 1 HP a day. A little bit too munchkin for my liking, but it would get rid of the gritty part of BRP where a character is injured for weeks after being wounded (thus making classic dungeon crawls in the D&D mold far too dangerous to complete). Perhaps there is some scope for a Morale mechanic to boost the healing rate...just a thought.

As a GM I did run a game once when I wanted the characters to have a greater chance of combat survival. The mechanic I used was that every time a player-character sustained damage they could expend a Power Point and make a 'Toughness Roll' on the Resistance Table, their CON versus the opponent's rolled Damage. If the character succeeded then they only sustained half the rolled damage, whereas upon a failure they sustained the full rolled damage as usual. The interesting part of this was that there was also room for Specials, and Criticals, as well as Fumbles. Specialing the roll meant they could make a Natural Healing CONx5% roll at the start of the next combat round and recover 1D3 HP, whereas a Critical meant the character actually recovered all those HP automatically at the start of the next combat round. A Fumble indicated that the character took double damage however, so it wasn't all peaches n cream.

It was an interesting mechanic for our RQ3/BRP game, it kept the stat block consistent with the opponents in regards to HP, yet it allowed the player characters to survive a little better. The option was only for player-characters from memory, although I think I may have gave the principle villain the same option in regards to the Toughness Roll. We were actually playing a version of an old D&D scenario that I had been using as a plot guide, it was a bit of a dungeon crawl, and this Toughness Roll mechanic seemed to work well.

I like the way you are emulating the classic old school archetypes. It's a little limiting for myself personally, however I can see the merits for using it to get new players to BRP who are coming over from classic fantasy systems, and I will probably buy this edition for that exact purpose actually.

Good luck with this

Edited February 3, 2013 by Mankcam

[silent_bob]

Rod,

I can't wait to see the second edition!

Like many on this forum, I have been playing BRP for a long time. I think it was 1979 to be exact. Due to this fact there are some things that I just can't bring myself to change or drop just becouse I'm using one of the D100 licences. Things that were in the first edition of CF and I want to keep.

There will be hit locations. I like my combat lethal.

Total hit points with hit points per location: I'm not sure about this one. Not having the seperate set of hit points to keep track of along with the hit points in each location may be easier on the book keeping, but do you guys find it less lethal? Not really sure. Then again, In the last edition of CF, I assumed the use of double hit points for the player characters and was thinking against it this time through. So maybe...

There will be skill check boxes and the "use a skill to improve a skill" system. Due respect to the writers that have decided to change it to "skill improvements" handed out at the end of the game, but the skill system was one of the things that made BRP different than every other game out there. I can't part with it. I will be including it again, in "my own words" of course.

Here is the new layout, along with what has been completly rewritten so far.

Chapter 1: Introduction. Done, just need to finish the "example" script.

Chapter 2: Character Generation. Done.

Chapter 3: Races. Done.

Chapter 4: Classes. Done. Two new classes added, the Cavalier and Thief-Acrobat. These two along with the Barbarian from CF1 have finished the 1st ed. Unearthed Arcana classes.

Chapter 5: Skills. Done

Chapter 6: Equipment. Done

Chapter 7: Spells. I have not yet started converting the CF1 spells chapter yet. I'll need to rewrite all the spells that CF1 simply refered the reader to in BRP. For example all the "see BRP page XX" stuff. I also plan to add at least 100 more spells to the 150 I already wrote for CF1. I will be using pretty much the same system as before except rewritten. I will now have spells seperated into Magnitude 1 through 9 instead of Uncommon, Common, and Rare. Before I can begin the spell chapter I need to finish the combat chapter so I don't have to go back after and change all the spells when I realise I changed the combat system and now they don't work. Second book, lessons learned.

Chapter 8: Combat. 70% done. Will be finished this weekend.

Chapter 9: Adventuring. Will contain much that was in the CF Spot Rules chapter before. Not yet converted.

Chapter 10: Adventuring at Sea. Nothing yet, may just be subsumed into chapter 9.

Chapter 11: Between Adventures. Not yet converted. Will contain stuff that was in the Spot Rules chapter plus new stuff that was chopped for space reasons before.

Chapter 12: Experiance. Check the skill box. Use a skill to improve a skill. Training etc. Nothing done.

Chapter 13: NPCs. Finished for what was to be CFII (2nd book of first ed.) Just need to convert. Contains NPC classes like the assassin, anti-paladin, witch, and necromancer, as well as rules for the mundane masses. They are written but need conversion.

Chapter 14: Encounters. Finished for what was to be CFIII (3rd book of first ed.) Just need to convert.

Chapter 15: Monsters. 50% finished for what was to be CFIII (3rd book of first ed.) Just need to convert and fill in gaps.

Chapter 16: Treasure. 80% finished for what was to be CFII (2nd book of first ed.) Just need to convert and fill in gaps.

Chapter 17: The Realm. Maybe. Only about 20% done. My own setting for about 15 years, most is in my head.

Appendix 1: Deities and Demi-Gods of the Realm. Done. Just need to expand and reformat.

Appendix 2: Psionics. Maybe. If not for player characters, for monsters.

Appendix 3: Spell list. Have to finish spell chapter first.

Anyway, there it is. I cant give any idea as to when it will be ready. It will take time. I want to do a really complete playtest when more of the book is complete, but not yet. It least chapters 1 through 8.

It looks like it will be a BIG book. This may not be possible depending upon the publisher. I'll know better as I get closer to done and we have had a chance to really talk.

Rod

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Total hit points with hit points per location: I'm not sure about this one.

I would be okay with either approach. I think it depends on which system you're going for - I would tend to go with that. If it's Legend or RQ6, hit location points only; if it's d20, whatever your preference; if you'd care to go for the D100IISRD, total hit points plus hit location points. All the systems work, so it's more a matter of personal choice.

It looks like it will be a BIG book.

I hope you can keep it to 300 pages or less (250 is even better). I find modern-day rulebooks very difficult to use at the table compared to the 50-150 page books of yore.

I hope you'll soon be able to spill the beans on what publisher and system you are going with. I didn't spring for CF1 because I was working on something much too similar (B/X + D100SRDII) but my new angle of AEONS + BLUEHOLME is so different that I'm no longer worried about unintentionally stealing your ideas. Er, in other words, I'm really looking forward to CF2!

[threedeesix]

I hope you can keep it to 300 pages or less (250 is even better). I find modern-day rulebooks very difficult to use at the table compared to the 50-150 page books of yore.

This will really depend upon if I cut the monster section and have a separate "monster manual" type book. Not a bad idea really as some people may like to just get a bunch of new BRP beasties and not have to pay for extra stuff they cant use. I'm pretty sure I can keep the rest of the book around 350 pages max. But what I have written for monsters so far takes around 100 pages of 10 point text alone, and im not quite half way there.

I didn't spring for CF1 because I was working on something much too similar (B/X + D100SRDII) but my new angle of AEONS + BLUEHOLME is so different that I'm no longer worried about unintentionally stealing your ideas. Er, in other words, I'm really looki ng forward to CF2!

CF came about becouse during the playtest of BRP I wrote up a 100 page conversion of the Mystara setting as a players handbook. The book actually served as the framework for CF when I started writing it. I still have it and was looking at it just last week. Seems so long ago.

Rod

[Agentorange]

This will really depend upon if I cut the monster section and have a separate "monster manual" type book. Not a bad idea really as some people may like to just get a bunch of new BRP beasties and not have to pay for extra stuff they cant use. I'm pretty sure I can keep the rest of the book around 350 pages max. But what I have written for monsters so far takes around 100 pages of 10 point text alone, and im not quite half way there.

Sounds like a good idea to me, also having a seperate " monster manual " would add to the old school flavour....The MM was the first gaming supplement I ever bought.

[Puck]

I am certainly exited to see the new CF. There were a ton of great ideas in the first one. (I loved the skill specialization that allowed characters to improve better in certain skills. The miniature rules were nice too; as well as cool new spells).

I have struggled with the dilemma of using hit location or not as well. If you include both Hit locations and total hit points (particularly when doing a monster manual or adventures) then it is easier for people to drop or ingore what they do not want. On the other hand you can sheer the page counts a little by not including hit locations.

[threedeesix]

I am certainly exited to see the new CF. There were a ton of great ideas in the first one. (I loved the skill specialization that allowed characters to improve better in certain skills. The miniature rules were nice too; as well as cool new spells).

Thanks Puck, you'll be happy to know that the skill improvement rules will carry over to 2nd edition as well. In addition, class skills not only get the increase to the next die type, they also get a +10% bonus to the roll to improve as well. This really has gone a long way in keeping the characters advancing when skills exceed 100%, which is really important when tying "level based" special abilities to the skills and "high level" characters are assumed to have skills well in excess of 100%.

As I mentioned a little upthread, I intend to keep the miniatures combat rules. I like the use of miniatures in my games and have used them for as long as I have been gaming. The only thing I intend to do differently is move the miniatures specific stuff to side bars and text boxes so readers are not as likley to think you have to use them. I included a lot of new ideas in CFI that I know some players have never found because they were kind of lumped in with rules for line of sight, zone of control, and facing. Instead I want it to be thought of as advanced combat rules, with miniatures stuff included as an option. You'll be able to read that chapter from front to back, and if you ignore the sidebars and text boxes, you'll never see mention of diagnal movement or a battle grid.

Rod

[silent_bob]

I would be okay with either approach. I think it depends on which system you're going for - I would tend to go with that. If it's Legend or RQ6, hit location points only; if it's d20, whatever your preference; if you'd care to go for the D100IISRD, total hit points plus hit location points. All the systems work, so it's more a matter of personal choice.

I hope you can keep it to 300 pages or less (250 is even better). I find modern-day rulebooks very difficult to use at the table compared to the 50-150 page books of yore.

I hope you'll soon be able to spill the beans on what publisher and system you are going with. I didn't spring for CF1 because I was working on something much too similar (B/X + D100SRDII) but my new angle of AEONS + BLUEHOLME is so different that I'm no longer worried about unintentionally stealing your ideas. Er, in other words, I'm really looking forward to CF2!

I think you should keep total HP and location HP. I love hit locations and the slight game play slow down is well worth the extra realism. However, those that don't like locations can just ignore them and use the total HP of the monster in the stat block.

As for the size of the book, OSRIC is 373 pages, RQ6 is 456 pages and BRP is 399 pages. I like the convenience of large all inclusive rule books, provided that they have a good index. I think the trend is towards large all inclusive volumes rather than separate booklets like the old RQ3 boxed edition. Even RQ3 was eventually published in a single 280 page soft cover book.

[Baron]

What I'd like to see is for 2nd edition CF to basically be compatible with the 1st edition. A "smoothing out" of things that for some reason were not optimized in the initial playtesting, an expansion necessitated by CF's divorce from referring to the BRP book, changes for the sake of clarity and reorganization, and the additional material that never saw publication. What I wouldn't like to see is something that is essentially a new game: new systems for this-and-that.

[silent_bob]

What I'd like to see is for 2nd edition CF to basically be compatible with the 1st edition. A "smoothing out" of things that for some reason were not optimized in the initial playtesting, an expansion necessitated by CF's divorce from referring to the BRP book, changes for the sake of clarity and reorganization, and the additional material that never saw publication. What I wouldn't like to see is something that is essentially a new game: new systems for this-and-that.

Baron,

You make a good point. CF is good as it is and only needs a bit of refinement as well as monsters and magic items.

[Baron]

Thanks Bob, you said that better than I. I like CF! I don't want a 'different version' that I might not like. I want more of the CF I enjoy!

[threedeesix]

Thanks Bob, you said that better than I. I like CF! I don't want a 'different version' that I might not like. I want more of the CF I enjoy!

This is the risk that I have to take, but I am not taking it lightly. There will be changes. There has to be. Character creation works differently now for example. But everything I had previously written for all the classes is still intact. You just spend your skill points a different way.

I did make up systems for CFI. It was the only way I could make some parts of it work the way I needed them to for the game to be what I needed. But I don't do so without careful consideration. If I can find an existing rule that will do what I need it to do, I always go that route first. When I wrote CFI, I cherry picked the optional rules from the BGB that would fit my needs. When that didn't work I looked at older versions of RQ. Finally, if still not finding what I needed I came up with it myself. This is the approach I'm taking with the 2nd edition.

I'm not making up a new game system, but I am settling on one. The one that I choose may not be the one that you would choose, or the one that Bob would choose. That’s the nature of BRP. But I can tell you that I'm not throwing out anything I have previously written. So things you liked before should still be in this version. And things you don't like should still be easliy replaced, with your rule of choice from the BGB, Legend, RQ6, OpenQuest. Thats the greatest strength of the D100 system.

I'm really happy you enjoy CFI so much, really I am. I do strongly believe that once you get a chance to check out some of the stuff I'm doing now you will enjoy it as well, hopefully even more.

Happy gaming

[Agentorange]

Can I put in my vote for keeping hit locations as well ? I've always liked that aspect of BRP/RQ Put them both in and let people choose what they want.

I must say I'm really looking forward to this.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

As for the size of the book, OSRIC is 373 pages, RQ6 is 456 pages and BRP is 399 pages. [...] I think the trend is towards large all inclusive volumes rather than separate booklets like the old RQ3 boxed edition.

I still find that for practical purposes at the game table 300 pages is my limit. I find both BRP and RQ6 too large to comfortably handle and find things in a hurry. I do like the idea of a separate monster book, because a lot of the time you don't need that information, and people who only play but never referee would only need to buy the core rules, a bit like the basic Pathfinder book (although that's still a pain to reference in play).

Just my personal opinion (although my group agrees with me), I realise there are different points of view.

[threedeesix]

Can I put in my vote for keeping hit locations as well ? I've always liked that aspect of BRP/RQ Put them both in and let people choose what they want.

I must say I'm really looking forward to this.

Hit locations are in. Like you I like them, and its easier to ignore them if you don't want them, then to add them if you do.

Rod

[DamonJynx]

Hit locations are in. Like you I like them, and its easier to ignore them if you don't want them, then to add them if you do.

Rod

+1 to that. I haven't actually played CF1 (though I've got the PDF) but I think keeping the Total HP in as well is a good move. Traditionalists can keep deducting from both (though I don't think that would work too well with Legend/RQ6 due to the way 'Combat Manoeuvres' are handled - might suggest we give that a go this weekend and see what happens) or choose one or the other, it's definitely a more flexible way to go.

IMO I think it would be a good idea to have a separate Monster Manual, but a lot depends on the publisher you go with and whether there is any benefit to having them separate. If there isn't much difference in price between a single tome and split books, I'd prefer them separate. Just my 2cents worth:)

[silent_bob]

I still find that for practical purposes at the game table 300 pages is my limit. I find both BRP and RQ6 too large to comfortably handle and find things in a hurry. I do like the idea of a separate monster book, because a lot of the time you don't need that information, and people who only play but never referee would only need to buy the core rules, a bit like the basic Pathfinder book (although that's still a pain to reference in play).

Just my personal opinion (although my group agrees with me), I realise there are different points of view.

Vile,

If you buy the pdf you can print the portions you need or have the whole book on your ipad for quick reference at the game table. Maybe the book and pdf could be sold together at a small discount like with RQ6.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Just to clarify, I'm talking about physical books. I like physical books for actual play, I find printouts messy and tablets or laptops a pain in the ass at the game table. I'd go so far as to say I'd be okay with only the core rules in a book and the monsters in PDF, if need be.

Obviously it makes no difference for a PDF only, but I thought we were talking about the dead tree version - or are we not? Now I'm confused.