BRP Starships pdf - comments welcome

[clarence]

Hmm, I think I could work up a really easy method of placing planets and determining a star's habitable zone using the SIZ table.

 

 

Well, this is an offer I just can't refuse : )

 

Regarding planets and star systems the rules are deliberately on the light side. I never understood why we create medieval/fantasy worlds without a trace of scientific groundwork, but as soon as we move our stories into space we follow rigorous rules adhering to the latest discoveries in astronomy. And the irony is that we know a lot more about medieval society than we know about exoplanets.

 

But rules for planetary systems using your SIZ table sounds a lot fun. And if you have something about biospheres it would be interesting too! Looking forward to these.

 

Are you sure a setting is needed? I might be old-fashioned, but a crunchy rules book is just so lovely. I'd rather see settings released as stand-alone docs/books. 

 

 

I think River of Heaven is doing a good job with this - perhaps not in a near future, but definitely transhumanism.

 

 

And about publishing now or waiting for more stuff to be finished, I think Chaosium is really giving the answers here. As long as I don't hear from them, we just can't publish anything else than a free pdf. And I still haven't heard anything from them, despite a handful of emails. It could be an option to just drop the references to BRP and make it a more generic d100 sourcebook, but for the moment I believe it's worth waiting a bit more for an answer. I think though that it once again raises the question whether there should be a more open "family name" for BRP games, to make it easier to go for self-publishing and community-based projects without worrying about trademarks and licensing. Looking at the market for fiction and the music business, this is no doubt a sizable part of the future for publishing.

[Atgxtg]

 

 

I really hate the new software Triff is using, it's so hard to quote text now...

 

1)What do you mean "we"/ Lots of people use quite a bit of scientific groundwork for medieval/fantasy worlds. As for why space setting get a lot more, it's because Sci is part of SciFi. Also, it's harder to explain certain things without magic to back it up. It's also hard to players to "forget" thing threat they know of. About 99% of fantasy RPGs I've played it had diseases spreading through germs, despite the fact that germ theory is a fairly recent development.

 

2) The reason why I'd want to use the SIZ table is because a star's Luminosity is a logarithmic function of it's magnitude. Since the SIZ table is also a logarithmic function I could use it to sidestep the (more than usual) complicated math. Likewise the habitable zone, or biosphere of a star is a square root function, and that can be done simply by dividing by two on a logarithmic table. 

 

3) As far as setting goes. Having a fleshed out setting, even if it is something small at the end of the book, appeals to most GMs. But I think as long as there is enough in the book to cover most of the bases for a SciFi campaign. 

 

4) Oh, and I'm a bit curious about you vehicle design system. I assume it is an extension of the spaceship rules? There is something I would like to go over with you about vehicle speed in an atmosphere. Basically, to go twice as fast you need four times the thrust (i.e. four times the engine modules). . 

[clarence]

1. Sorry, that was an unnecessary generalization. Many fantasy worlds are of course well constructed. About the "sci" part I'm not so sure though. Giant sand worms living on a barren desert planet - eating what? Not to mention Star Wars. Many times I find that "sci" is a thin veil covering a (hopefully) good story, telling us something about ourselves. And to me, that is not a devaluation of science fiction.

 

2. Sounds very good. I would like to see more of what you have.

 

3. Hmm, yes, I can see that. Well, let's see how work on the different parts proceed. If one the settings come together in a timely fashion it might be a good addition. The settings I have are not quite generic, one of them is a psionic-heavy post-empire saga and the other one is... something else : )

 

4. Yes, the vehicle rules are an extension of the starship rules and I would very much like to hear your comments on it. I hope to have something for you in a week or two.

[Atgxtg]

1) Well, a lot of what people take as Science Fiction isn't. Star Wars is really a Fantasy story with high tech trappings. And yeah, a lot of TV SciFi is really just a morality play that uses the trapping of SciFi to make a social comment in a veiled way. Racial tensions between Greens and Purples rather than between Blacks and Whites. 

 

2) Not much yet. I know some of the math behind it,a nd am hoping to simplify it with a table. 

 

3) I think what we need is mostly the trappings for SciFi.hand comms, laser pistols, flying cars, that sort of thing. BRP covers a bit of it, but not really good enough to run a campaign. Before someone jumps in here and claims that we don;'t need all that stuff, I like to point out just how much stuff BRP has for low tech fantasy settings. At least a half dozen different types of sword.Three or Four completely different out magic systems. SciFi really gets the short end of the stick. I don;t think there are two different  laser pistols.

 

4) Cool.  

[Baron]

My thoughts, for what they're worth.

The definition of SF varies, over time and by source.

Personally, as a gm and writer, I hand-wave my SF. I don't use generators or construction rules. I see no need for them in a space BRP book, but they don't offend me since I know many people like them.

Yes, more equipment. No, no setting. At this point, that's pretty much wasted space. SF fans already have a type of setting they like, and they know it better than anyone else does.

[clarence]

More equipment should't prove too difficult. I'm not much of a gear type though, so any wishes, or even better short write-ups, of everyone's favorite equipment is more than welcome!

[Atgxtg]

This might be a weird idea, but you know we could scale down the advanced starship rules to character scale and use it as the basis to design hi tech weapons.

 

We could probably even come up with a way to covert modules to weight. Something like 5 or 10 modules per kg or so. 

 

Come to think of it, the same process could be done for other bits of gear. For instance a space suit could comprise of protection (Armor), a comm system, environmental system, with air and energy supplies . All of which could take up modules (and weight). 

 

I could probably reverse engineer weights from the full suits of body armor to get a mass/armor rating and eventually a "how many modules per AP" thing.

[clarence]

Hmm, gear-design rules... At first sight it does appear a bit weird, but on second thought it might be just perfect. Perhaps not for standard equipment, but for those special innovative pieces of gear characters want to come up with.

 

And the step from building augmentations/cybernetics with modules, to building equipment is not that big. What is equipment but implants that are not implanted? (I guess miniaturization is taken a bit longer with implants, and the connection with the neural system is of course unique (but needn't be)). At the moment I'm using what I call µModules to build augmentations - raising STR in the right arm and adding a pop-out needle gun, either with wetware/biotech or hardware/robotics, is very straightforward with this system. How the module sizes and weights should relate to each other between implants and gear needs a bit of thought though.

 

This could be fun!

 

Edit: I just hope we don't end up in Hero System-ism, where I think flexibility bogs down the rules a bit too much.

[Atgxtg]

Well...

 

What I'm thinking of is letting you build whatever it is you want with points. The cost will be based on what functions the item (or weapon) does, and how well it does them (flying at 200mph as opposed to flying at 2 mph).

 

Then you decide how many points go into modules (the bulk/SIZ of the item) and how much go into cash. The idea is the smaller you make the item the more it will cost.

 

Oh, and I'm hoping ot factor tech level in there. Basically, the higher the TL the smaller/cheaper the item should be.  

 

Edit: Ironically, I was thinking of using the Powers rules to handle items, but since that was an attempt to incorporate a Hero System-esque point buy system into RQ/BRP I'm not sure if you'd like that approach. 

[seneschal]

Ironically, I was thinking of using the Powers rules to handle items, but since that was an attempt to incorporate a Hero System-esque point buy system into RQ/BRP I'm not sure if you'd like that approach.

 

Pssst.  Skill points.  Power points.  Magic points.  Despite the random-roll characteristics, RQ/BRP is a point-buy system.     

[Atgxtg]

BRP is. THat's why I said Ironically. 

 

One route I was thinking or for items is to build the item using points and then paying for some of the point cost with weight/size/bulk of the item, some with money, and some with tech level.

 

For example, a computer with INT 15 (45 points) might be a tablet in the modern world, something that fills an room in the 1960s, or a microdot in the near future. 

[clarence]

I enjoy Hero system quite a lot and have used it extensively through the years, though it's been a while now. The flexibility and consistency of the system is elegant, but it takes too much time and effort for me at the moment : )

 

I tried constructing something like a Boba Fett suit with my improvised gear-design rules. While it worked out just fine, I felt it was a bit… pointless? (Not the right word, but something like that). Why not put the same gear together from an equipment list and just pay Credits for it? A modular system will of course set a physical limit to the amount of things/functions that can be added - that's good.

 

(Armored Suit: 13 µModules. AC 12, 6 µModules. JetPack 4 µModules (Speed 4, Handling 4). Mini missiles (4), 2 µModules (heat seeking, 1d8, range 50 m). Line & hook (6 m), 1 µModule).

[Baron]

Yeah, I'm with Clarence on that one. Equipment should be purchased with credits. I don't really 'get' the 'points' thing.

 

Now, you could always have some sort of trade-off in chargen to allow for a special character, such as one with cyber-enhancements. But generally speaking, I would create an equipment list, and improvise off that. No different from a fantasy or horror game.

[nezeray]

I've played many different space RPGs, from Traveller (most versions) to Star Hero.  I prefer equipment lists over building equipment.  I think players get too wound up in creating items and forget that there's actually an adventure going on.  Starships I even tend to hand wave to an extent.  "Here are the sizes of ships in the game and how many compartments they can have.  Now here is a list of the compartments available and what they do."  So you can have the Millenium Falcon, Slave 1 or Serenity and not have to worry about tonage/thrust/hvac/... :-)

 

James / Nezeray

[seneschal]

Building equipment with points is a typically a superhero thing, since supers and their adversaries tend to have unusual gear you just can't pick up at this weekend's gun show or at Walmart's sporting goods department.  So, a jet pack in a 1930s pulp adventure campaign or in a superhero campaign?  Character pays points because it is a unique item that helps define him.  Same jet pack in a Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon campaign?  Buy with money or get it assigned to you by whatever sponsoring organization is sending the PCs on missions.

 

The main reason for building equipment for the GM is to give him a handle on the gadget and what it can do.  The players don't need to worry about all that, just know that their new toy does really cool stuff.  On the other hand, if one of the player-characters is a Benton Quest/Doc Savage/Doctor Huer type who is always pulling some new device out of his workshop, then invention or point-buy gadget rules (with appropriate cash, time, and parts availability limitations) are in order.  The GM doesn't want Professor Make-It to unexpectedly announce, "Oh, and here's the time machine with built-in can opener and wi-fi connectivity I just whipped up in the garage this afternoon."

 

(Hey, a good GM can handle the time travel angle, but you just never know what the PCs might do with that built-in can opener.)

[Atgxtg]

Senseshcal's got the idea. I'm not thinking of having players build equipment as much as giving the GM a tool that helps him build the right items for a particular setting as well as a idea of how much things should cost.

 

The idea is that the more points you place into mass (or modules) the bigger the item will be, while the more points you leave out of modules increases the cost. For example a 10 point item that is 10 modules big might weight 10kg/SIZ 2, and cost 10 credits, while one that is one 1 module big might only weight 1kg, but cost 100 credits. 

 

But this is mostly for a GM aid. Although the PCs might use it occasionally to invent something to deal with a particular problem-in grand Star Trek tradition.

[clarence]

As a GM tool it makes more sense to me. A regular equipment list for players (a bit longer than it is now) and a chapter for the GM with modular gear-design I think will be a good combination.

 

The similarities with the augmentation/cybernetics system I also find quite fascinating, blurring the line between organisms, implants and objects, and begging for some fundamental sci-fi questions to be explored.

 

Trading modules for Credits and Tech Levels seems like a good idea.

[Atgxtg]

Speaking of which, where is the tech level table?

[clarence]

BRP Starships 2.2, pages 95-97. Just a copy of the Traveller SRD tech levels with some add-ons.

[Atgxtg]

Thanks, that gives me an idea of how to work the progession for tech and the size of items. 

 

I might be able to get it to work with the powers rules. My only major concern is that the lineral improvment for powers might be too cheap. A weapon with a 5D6 energy blast in a SciFi game is a lot deadlier than a 5D6 blast in a superhero game.

 

But I can scale down the advanced combat rules from BRP Starships. I might just put the "powers" on the same doubling progression. A "personal scale" 5D6 blaster pistol would have ten doubling, and cost around a quarter million credits. At that's at the default TL of 13. That looks like a safer starting point. 

[clarence]

Using the damage ladder, among other things, from the Advanced Combat chapter crossed my mind too, for example nn Energy Weapon module where size and damage can be bought up in increments. For augmentations it will be almost similar. Looking forward to see more of your thoughts on this.

[Atgxtg]

My thoughts on that is that it works. You can do anything to a personal scale weapon with the advanced combat rules that you can do to starship scale weapons and it works. All without adding another set of rules.

 

What I think we could do is assign equipment functions (what they do), and attributes (how they do it) and then used the advanced combat rules to customize the equipment. For example, a weapon would have the function of inflicting damage, and possible the range attribute (to show how far out it can inflcit damage), and some sort of ammo attribute. A jet-pack would have a move function, showing how fast it could go, and attributives for capacity (how much it can move),  and some sort of range attribute (to show far it can go before it needs to be refueled), a comm device would have a communicate function (lets you talk over distance), a range/signal STR attribute (how far you can talk), and a time attribute for how long you can use it before the battery runs out, a vacc suit would have a environmental function (perhaps several since it provides air, heating, cooling, anbd some radiation protection) and a time/duration attribute (how long you can use it before the air runs out). 

 

In theory we could make just about any piece of equipment or fine tune something to fit a particular setting just by adjusting the functions and  attributes.

 

-What I'm thinking of doing is putting everything on the "ladder" the way damage is. 

-I'm also thinking that I might be able to put this on a per module basis for personal equipment. That is, rather than requiring someone to pay 50% more for a 25% increase the range, they might be able to buy a 5% (or  5m)  improvement for 1 module.

-I'm also also thinking that II'd like to "zero out" the ladder so we could build items from scratch rather than modifying existing gear. 

 

-But mostly I'm thinking we could use a list of functions. I want to see if we can cover most of the bases for what things can do, in a general way. THat should make it easy to fill in the blanks, for stuff we missed. 

 

Oh, and I say in a general way, because I think some things do the same function but in different ways. For instance, voice radio and wif-fi would both be forms of communication, so they would both be covered under the same general function. 

[threedeesix]

But this is mostly for a GM aid. Although the PCs might use it occasionally to invent something to deal with a particular problem-in grand Star Trek tradition.

 

But if they do, they can only use it in one episode adventure and never mention it again.  ;-)

[clarence]

What I think we could do is assign equipment functions (what they do), and attributes (how they do it) and then used the advanced combat rules to customize the equipment. For example, a weapon would have the function of inflicting damage, and possible the range attribute (to show how far out it can inflcit damage), and some sort of ammo attribute. A jet-pack would have a move function, showing how fast it could go, and attributives for capacity (how much it can move),  and some sort of range attribute (to show far it can go before it needs to be refueled), a comm device would have a communicate function (lets you talk over distance), a range/signal STR attribute (how far you can talk), and a time attribute for how long you can use it before the battery runs out, a vacc suit would have a environmental function (perhaps several since it provides air, heating, cooling, anbd some radiation protection) and a time/duration attribute (how long you can use it before the air runs out). 

 

 

Very neat. And staying close to the starship rules is of course good.

 

What functions are needed? Damage, Movement, Communicate, Environment, Armor, Enhancements (for stat increases and added/heightened senses)?

 

So, a Boba Fett suit would be some Armor modules, Damage (mini missiles), Movement (Flight/Jet-Pack) and Communications. And some attributes defining each one a bit more.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, pretty much. Other functions:

 

Compute:. I was thinking it could either give a bonus to skill rolls (something needed I think) and/or reduce the time it take to figure out something. 

Scan: Used to locate and gather information on a target. Note that you'd have to figure out just what it is scanning for, but an item couldbe able to scan for multiple items (basically +1 module or cost per additional item).

Store: I'm thinking about storing information here, but it might apply to other things. 

Manipulate: Ability of item to interact with it's environment.

Skill: Item either gives a skill bonus or can performs a skill on it's own. Probably both.  Maybe even reduce the difficulty. 

 

I was thinking that something like macrobinculars could be built by giving them a Scan skill bonus and a range stat. Maybe even something like making a scan skill roll easy if within the range stat. 

 

 

Now we should be able to build tricoders, the mars rover, and even robots.