High Skilled Combat Wonkiness

[KPhan2121]

How do you guys handle fights between two opponents that have 85+ weapon skills? Alot of whats going on is hit-parry for alot of turns and the occasional special. Is there something I'm missing? I'm using mostly standard rules, like Weapon Skill to parry and -30 penalty per success. I know that you can make multiple attacks per round if you have at least 101 weapon skill but no one is there yet. 

[Baragei]

A skill of 85% means that there is a 32% chance of something else than a normal success happening. 

So if we rely on some very crutchety math, 1 in 3 exhanges should in theory do something. In practice, I've referred to it as the attack/parry pingpong.

The attack/parry pingpong can be a fun-killer if combatants are just standing there wailing on each other until exhausted. The core BRP-rules gives you some tactical options - reach, placement, movement, called shots and knockbacks. And do not forget the optional fate points. Plus the age-old options of blindsiding, outnumbering and downright underhanded tactics.

It all works, but the pingpong is one of BRP's weak spots, IMO.

[Moonowl67]

I actually rarely encounter the combat ping-pong; circumstances usually prevent the dueling type of environment that would entail.  Usually, somebody tries to help one of the combatants or the other, or somebody turns to under-handed tactics.  Like, why not risk grappling the opponent to slip a dagger up his plate-mail?  With my current mechanics, it would need a successful grapple (entailing a dodge of that attack that the opponent would no doubt attempt), which would need a held until the next round, when the attacker can reach for the dagger in his belt or boot (May need a luck roll depending on the mood of the gm. . .ehem, circumstances).  The dagger attack would then be converted to an Easy attack.  In my campaign, some characters can add their allegiance to an attack roll (which would also improve the range of specials and critical). it's a hell of a gamble, but it might work . . . at least, it would speed things up!

[Baragei]

Like I said, it's not that it doesn't work, but it is more reliant upon player/gamemaster creativity than mechanics.

[KPhan2121]

Like I said, it's not that it doesn't work, but it is more reliant upon player/gamemaster creativity than mechanics.

 

Yeah, I had to pull out some stuff that wasn't part of the rules. Borrowing concepts from Dungeon World like soft moves (set up descriptions) and hard moves (the actual rolling and results) in order to make break outta the hit-parry cycle.

[10baseT]

Do you use fatigue rules?

When i run, it's rare that a party encounters combat after a nice rest. Typically they've been marching, exploring, spelunking, etc for some time. If so, they're already -2 to -5, or whatver, in fatigue when combat starts. So that -2 to -5/whatever penalty will only increase as combat proceeds. Additionally, they're encumbered, that's its own penalty, or adds to more fatigue, but you get the picture.

 

And If possible, team up. So gang up on an opponent, get bonuses and dont play fair, your job in combat is to win... I know i'm preaching to the choir and someone already alluded to this. So maybe several of these factors can help.

[KPhan2121]

Do you use fatigue rules?

When i run, it's rare that a party encounters combat after a nice rest. Typically they've been marching, exploring, spelunking, etc for some time. If so, they're already -2 to -5, or whatver, in fatigue when combat starts. So that -2 to -5/whatever penalty will only increase as combat proceeds. Additionally, they're encumbered, that's its own penalty, or adds to more fatigue, but you get the picture.

 

And If possible, team up. So gang up on an opponent, get bonuses and dont play fair, your job in combat is to win... I know i'm preaching to the choir and someone already alluded to this. So maybe several of these factors can help.

 

I don't use the fatigue rules since I only recently started playing BRP(only had a few sessions under my belt) so I'm sticking to basic rules till me and my group get use to the rules.

 

Well, this situation I brought up was a one on one duel, a "trial by combat" situation and they couldn't do any underhanded stuff without the judges seeing.

[Greville]

A duel with highly skilled people could take a long time, and like a long boxing match wearing the other person down and waiting for an opening was a crucial strategy. This fight scene from The Four musketeers is a case in point (it's reportedly a recreation and mashup of several famous duels) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE3TbBwSVe8 .

 

If the player characters were outnumbered, or ambushed then it's a completely different matter. The 30% reduction in skill for successive parries or dodges tends to make the fight pretty scary for even the most skilled pcs.

I don't see this as a problem in the rules, the rules are the physics of the game world and in this case mirror the real world pretty well. All situations design should be rules independent, and lies with the GM.

[RosenMcStern]

Yeah, I had to pull out some stuff that wasn't part of the rules. Borrowing concepts from Dungeon World like soft moves (set up descriptions) and hard moves (the actual rolling and results) in order to make break outta the hit-parry cycle.

 

Few games are so different as BRP and Dungeon World. If you try to pigeonhole pieces of DW into BRP, the chances that you fix a problem that appears in a specific situation but at the sam etime open the way to bigger issues in a different situation are very high.

 

 

There is still a lot you can do without entering the realm of "forbidden moves". For instance, a typical move you would attempt in a trial by combat would be disarming your opponent and humiliating him instead of wounding/killing him. The rules for disarming are on page 221, and they clearly specify that a disarming attempt bypasses any parry, so the chances of a "no event" round will drop a lot.

 

Other items among the spot rules will probably contribute to the solution of the "too many uneventful rounds" problem in one on one combat, too. You should take the time to browse the Spot Rules section and pick the ones that stimulate your and your friends' imagination for introduction into your combat sessions. Even if you do not want to pre-declare that you are using them, have a list of the available options memorised (don't worry, it doesn't occupy a spell slot), so that you know that there is a specific rule in the book that covers that fancy description your player has just made to insert variety in a boring battle.

[Chaot]

Sorry this is short, but what I do is switch up the scene a bit when combat starts to drag.  There's a great section in Dragon Lines about cinematic fighting.  I also allow players to include other skill rolls to change up the fight dynamics.  Also, I give bonuses when the PCs narrate something cool.

[KPhan2121]

 

Few games are so different as BRP and Dungeon World. If you try to pigeonhole pieces of DW into BRP, the chances that you fix a problem that appears in a specific situation but at the sam etime open the way to bigger issues in a different situation are very high.

 

 

There is still a lot you can do without entering the realm of "forbidden moves". For instance, a typical move you would attempt in a trial by combat would be disarming your opponent and humiliating him instead of wounding/killing him. The rules for disarming are on page 221, and they clearly specify that a disarming attempt bypasses any parry, so the chances of a "no event" round will drop a lot.

 

Other items among the spot rules will probably contribute to the solution of the "too many uneventful rounds" problem in one on one combat, too. You should take the time to browse the Spot Rules section and pick the ones that stimulate your and your friends' imagination for introduction into your combat sessions. Even if you do not want to pre-declare that you are using them, have a list of the available options memorised (don't worry, it doesn't occupy a spell slot), so that you know that there is a specific rule in the book that covers that fancy description your player has just made to insert variety in a boring battle.

 

Started looking at the spot rules, thanks for that. Didn't realize how important they were. 

 

Funny thing is in the middle of the duel the PC just went "fuck this" and rushed the guy, knocked him over, disarmed him and held a dagger to his face kinda like what Briene did to Loras in Game of Thrones. We did it almost as written in the rules. Rolled few grapple checks and done in a turn instead of a few of them.

[silent_bob]

How do you guys handle fights between two opponents that have 85+ weapon skills? Alot of whats going on is hit-parry for alot of turns and the occasional special. Is there something I'm missing? I'm using mostly standard rules, like Weapon Skill to parry and -30 penalty per success. I know that you can make multiple attacks per round if you have at least 101 weapon skill but no one is there yet. 

I think this comes down to what kind of fantasy you are trying to emulate.  I don't see a problem with combats between highly skilled combatants taking longer.  The sword fights between  D'Artagnan and Comte de Rochefort in the Three Musketeers were long and very exciting. 

 

The possibility of fumbles, criticals and specials make combats exciting in my opinion. You also have knockback attacks, aimed attacks, disarming, etc...

[Mankcam]

I personally like the 'ping-pong' of combat between notable characters, and I think BRP does it quite well, especially if you make use of the spot rules or use situations to create advantages.

For more cinematic settings I use the Mook rules from Astounding Adventures (or RQ6 if I am playing it) for background opponents/fodder, and that keeps things moving quickly. You can easily come up with a rule of the fly for your own Mooks, however, something like a Major Wound incapacitates, or Half HP, etc

[Chaot]

One more thing that is certainly not to everyone's taste, you could go the blackjack route.  When two opponents roll equal successes, take a look at the rolls and see which roll has a higher value.  The higher roll wins because it represents use of more refined skill.

 

For example, two characters are tussling.  One crits on a roll of 23, the other crits on a roll of 07.  The character who rolled a 23 wins because they are able to crit on such a high roll.  The second character's crit moves to a success (or the first character's moves to a special).

 

This will have the opposite effect of long combat.  Using this method, combat is usually over in a couple of rolls.  If you try it, I would suggest loosening up the definition of the combat round as that plenty of action is narrated between the rolls.

[Link6746]

I have something in Simpler BRP that fixes this issue.

[soltakss]

How do you guys handle fights between two opponents that have 85+ weapon skills? Alot of whats going on is hit-parry for alot of turns and the occasional special. Is there something I'm missing? I'm using mostly standard rules, like Weapon Skill to parry and -30 penalty per success. I know that you can make multiple attacks per round if you have at least 101 weapon skill but no one is there yet. 

 

Are duels supposed to be like The Princess Bride, where the opponents are evenly matched and have to rely on other things than skill (terrain, tricks, surprise) to win, or are they like the Water Margin, where a superior combatant wades through opponents with ease (Skill trumps everything)?

 

If you have tough armour as well, the even a failed parry isn't going to have a massive effect.

 

To me, the Princess Bride duel is between two people who are using every trick in the book to get around the attack/parry/attack/parry combat. It is very much an RQ6 combat.

 

The Water Margin is very much an RQ2 combat, with one combatant having a high skill (anti-parry) and the others having no chance.

[KPhan2121]

One more thing that is certainly not to everyone's taste, you could go the blackjack route.  When two opponents roll equal successes, take a look at the rolls and see which roll has a higher value.  The higher roll wins because it represents use of more refined skill.

 

For example, two characters are tussling.  One crits on a roll of 23, the other crits on a roll of 07.  The character who rolled a 23 wins because they are able to crit on such a high roll.  The second character's crit moves to a success (or the first character's moves to a special).

 

This will have the opposite effect of long combat.  Using this method, combat is usually over in a couple of rolls.  If you try it, I would suggest loosening up the definition of the combat round as that plenty of action is narrated between the rolls.

I suggested that as a house rules a few months ago. It works pretty well, but I've found that it screws over people who take martial arts. 

 

This is a very interesting idea, however I'm more inclined towards the combat rolls as opposed skill rolls. It's simply easier to implement. A suggestion for you, I wouldn't make parrying or dodging require a roll. Instead the attack penalty decreases as they parry more per turn cumulative. Less rolling in combat overall.