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Reposted from:  https://plus.google.com/105565958886348555846/posts/FUWS1NAXBKY

"History is written by the Victors."
(or how I learned to love the Illuminated Bull God)

I've been attempting to piece together the Dawn Age history of Fronela,  particularly focusing around the Gbaji Wars.   I think I've made an interesting discovery, particularly about the nature of Arinsor, the so called "Chaos Wizard" and the Tarjinian Bull.

If we step back to the Dawn, there are two dominant powers - Akem, the Brithini and Malkioni settlement centered around Sog City, and the Eleven Beast Alliance - a confederation of Hsunchen ruled by a Hykimi Shamans.    The Eleven Beast Alliance are lead by a group of Tawari bull hsunchen known as the Enjoreli.   These two powers clash for a while, and then in the 2nd century, the word of the Lightbringers are brought to the Enjoreli by the Unity Council.

At this point the Eleven Beast Alliance changes - they do not entirely abandon their Hykimi Ways, but add the worship of the Lightbringers to their midsts.   Even in the Third Age, many of the Orlanthi of Fronela worship bull riding, thunderbolt throwing King Storm.   Is this an attempt of the Unity Council to convert the most influential of the Beast Tribes in the area?

In 375 ST, the Sunstop occurs.  From the perspective of the Fronelans, this was a magical contest between the Malkioni Sorcerers and the Hykimi Shamans, where the Malkioni prove their superiority by causing Ehilm to stop in its tracks.   Things get more complicated after this.

The Second Council begins to send Nysaloran missionaries to spread the word of the New God.

Arinsor emerges at this time.  Called by Talor and the Loskalmi as "The Chaos Wizard", it seems unlikely to me that he would embrace such a moniker.  After all, he is here to spread the world of Nysalor.   Arinsor "opens the Gates of Banir" and the most prominent thing that emerges from is the Tarjinian Bull.

Predictably, the Malkioni react badly to this new religion, but it seems like the Eleven Beast Alliance embraces Nysalor.    

Perhaps the Tarjinian Bull isn't the quite the chaos monstrosity that the Talor and Arkat demonize it as.   Perhaps Arinsor merely wished to demonstrate the amazing potential offered to the Eleven Beast Alliance, and brought forth this magical bull to convert their most powerful and influential Tribe to the New Light.

History continues to unfold.   Arkat and Talor emerge on the scene, struggle, die, and are resurrected.   Talor eventually returns in 450ST, destroys the Hykimi Priests, and exterminates the Tawari Bull Hsunchen.   This is a worse fate, perhaps, than the curse he leveled against the Telmori Wolf Hsunchen.  What had the Tawari done that necessitated genocide?   

There are only ten tribes of Hsunchen left in Fronela afterwords.

There are still signs of this conflict throughout Fronela:

- The Loskalmi province of Tawars is still named after them, and there are renowned for their cattle.
- Valsburg, Tawar's capital, has a Bull Gate in which the defeated gods of the Tawari are still bound.
- Feleor in Tawars has exalted white cattle that are only slaughtered by an ancient line of butcher-priests.     
- Furlani the Horned One, magical guardian of Loskalm, has a bulls head.  
- Kikina in Junora has a sacred bull that makes auguries.  
- Orlanth the Bull Rider is worshipped throughout Junora and Oranor.

When the Hero Wars start in earnest, the Gates of Banir will be reopened.  Will the Tarjinian Bull emerge again?   What will it mean for Tawars?

640x463_14984_牛头_2d_fantasy_creature_bull_picture_image_digital_art.jpg

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The Tawari may have been driven out or exterminated in Fronela, but they have descendants elsewhere, as the Bisosae of Pelanda, who came from the south according to the Entekosiad, certainly had descendants. And if this is so, then the Tawari's Bull God might be related to Bisos, also known as Urox and Storm Bull. The Tarjinian Bull may not have been a Chaos monster?

Edited by M Helsdon

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Namaste:

It seems to me that the Bisosae of Pelanda lost their Hsunchen nature in the God-Time.  Bisos seems like a firmly theistic entity, who espouses agriculture and domestication, both of which seem anathema to my understanding of the Hykimi Way.   

Regarding the Tarjinian Bull - Talor and his Arkati allies labelled it as a Chaos Monster.   I'm proposing that it was, instead, one of the Nysaloran Miracles, a New God to convert the Fronelan Tawari to the Bright Light.   

 

Edited by aumshantih

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39 minutes ago, aumshantih said:

It seems to me that the Bisosae of Pelanda lost their Hsunchen nature in the God-Time.   

 

If the Brithini story of them 'waking up' the animal people to become 'human' is true, then the majority of humans in Glorantha, or at least Genertela are descended from Hsunchen? If true, then the majority of Orlanthi, as an example, are ex-Hsunchen.

It is purely my speculation that the Bull God of the original Tawari may have been Urox, simply wearing a different mask. For example, according to one story Urox's minotaur offspring inherited their bull's head from their father, and their human body from a daughter of Uleria. Another has the minotaurs the offspring of Urox and Eiritha. Hmm, I wonder if Eiritha is related in some way to the Cow Goddess, Esus?

And given how the Bisosae retained their bull-riding and cattle-herding ways they didn't lose all the trappings of their Hsunchen ancestors.

The Westerners described any creature they were unfamiliar with as krjalki, so labelling the Tarjinian Bull as a Chaos Monster might indicate it was only alien to them.

Edited by M Helsdon

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I'm intrigued by this story you mention of Brithini waking up animal people.   Where can one find it?

And yes, I'm in agreement with you about many peoples throughout Glorantha being originally of Hsunchen stock and being changed by circumstance and loosing their beast spirits.   It seems the people of Fronela are primarily  of few different bloodlines:

  • The Brithini of Akem
  • The Malkioni settlers who arrived near the Dawn from the destruction of the Lands of Logic
  • The Eleven Beast Alliance / The Hsunchen Kingdom of Beasts
  • And lastly Orlanthi settlers from the central Genertelan First Council.

I'm ignoring all the folks who arrived in the Imperial Age and the Lunar influx during the Seleran Khanate, for now.

 

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3 hours ago, aumshantih said:

Regarding the Tarjinian Bull - Talor and his Arkati allies labelled it as a Chaos Monster.   I'm proposing that it was, instead, one of the Nysaloran Miracles, a New God to convert the Fronelan Tawari to the Bright Light.   

 

Well, it could probably be BOTH at the same time...

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2 hours ago, aumshantih said:

I'm intrigued by this story you mention of Brithini waking up animal people.   Where can one find it?

I'm having difficulty finding the reference, but in the Guide you'll find that Brithini consider themselves the only True Men (pages 108, 215) and abhor intermarriage with outsiders, considering it akin to bestiality (page 407).

Additional - still looking through books, but the distinction between the True/Original People and the animal people is given here:

“Are all races of mortals or Men of the class of Ifaldor?” asked Aanor.

“Not all,” replied his Master. “Most inhabitants of the world are of the race known as Hsunchen. This is the reason for the similar dialects between the savage, animalistic races of the world. Only when the race is of the Ifaldori lineage does the language differ, for each type of Srvuali has its own tongue which it passes onto any which may be descended from it.”

“What’s the origin of the Hsunchen?”

“In the language of the Kralori, the word means Children-of-Animals. The various nations of the Hsunchen are all descended from some animal god or another, with one of the parents of the race being of another class of god.”

“Then that’s the reason the Jonatings of the north are called the Bear-People?”

“Yes. In fact, before the War of the Gods most of the Surface World was people by the pure races of the Hsunchen. There were Goat-People, Horse-People, Cat-People, Bull-People, and many others. But due to the influences of the War of the Gods and the War with Chaos the nations mingled, losing their brotherhoods with the animals. To my knowledge, the Jonatings of the north have lost most of their form communication with the bears; the Basmoli Lion-People of the Mislari Mountains to the south have retained their brotherhood with their beasts but have fallen in savagery; the Pralori of the south have retained their brotherhood with their beasts, but much less than they were; and the winged Vrimaki of the farthest east have retained their kinship with their bird king brothers; are the only remaining Hsunchen whose strains are unpolluted enough to claim direct blood relationship to the beasts, although there may be others in the world I have not heard of.”

“What advantage does this kinship have, other than that they may sometimes communicate directly with the animals? It would seem to me that the intermingling of the races would strengthen the races of men, just as cross-breeding between Elementals made a more powerful strain of god.”

“Not so. When the men could talk with the animals they could also talk more easily with their god ancestors, thus gain Power from these gods with ease. Their magic was strongest when they kept their lineages pure. This is evident now, for the Brithini and Tamali, whose blood has been kept relatively pure over the ages either through isolation, as with the Brithini, or fear of association by other races, as with the Tamali, are the most powerful races on earth as far as communication with their ancestors goes.”
http://www.glorantha.com/docs/xeotam-dialogues/

Edited by M Helsdon

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12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

If the Brithini story of them 'waking up' the animal people to become 'human' is true, then the majority of humans in Glorantha, or at least Genertela are descended from Hsunchen? If true, then the majority of Orlanthi, as an example, are ex-Hsunchen.

As the Brithini understand the universe (and as their magic works) - this is largely correct. A motley mix of ex-Hsunchen mixed with degenerate Burtae. Krjalki all of them. The Pendali, Enerali, Hykimi, Tawari, Theyalans - all barbarian half-breeds. And important in understanding early Malkioni - they are intrinsically incapable of being Brithini, yet the small Brithini enclaves needed to find a modus vivendi with them. At the same time the barbarian half-breeds adopted agriculture, building settlements and fortifications, and some of the trappings of Brithini civilization - but could not be Brithini (and most importantly, could not enter the zzaburi caste with its powerful magic).

And then came Hrestol.

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13 hours ago, aumshantih said:

And yes, I'm in agreement with you about many peoples throughout Glorantha being originally of Hsunchen stock and being changed by circumstance and loosing their beast spirits.   It seems the people of Fronela are primarily  of few different bloodlines:

  • The Brithini of Akem
  • The Malkioni settlers who arrived near the Dawn from the destruction of the Lands of Logic
  • The Eleven Beast Alliance / The Hsunchen Kingdom of Beasts
  • And lastly Orlanthi settlers from the central Genertelan First Council.

I'm ignoring all the folks who arrived in the Imperial Age and the Lunar influx during the Seleran Khanate, for now.

 

This is more or less correct. And all of these people interacted/influenced each other in way or another. So frex, the Malkioni settlements were numerically insignificant, but had a powerful influence on the small bands of mortals that had survived the Great Darkness. And when I say small, I mean SMALL. None of the Malkioni enclaves likely numbered more than 1500 or so people (so imagine, there might be a single Talar and only a handful of zzaburi in a settlement). Some communities may have lost most or all their zzaburi in the Great Darkness and lost their access to higher sorcerous knowledge. Most of the people found it impossible to adhere strictly to the Brithini way and aged (although Akem managed to pull it off - I think they may have survived the Darkness with a dozen or so zzaburi and a enough members of each caste to maintain their ways).

Meanwhile, there were bands of cattle herding pastoralists who built little forts of earth and wood. They worshiped their Bull God (who was a storm god as well) and communicated with local spirits and so on. 

You can see how important Hrestol was to the local Malkioni. He made it possible to generate "new" zzaburi from people who according to the Brithini were impure and not permitted. That was tremendously liberating for the Malkioni, and made it possible for them to grow and expand - particularly settlement like Nenanduft, Isefwal, and Sish. This in turn influenced the Enjoreli, some of whom adopted the trappings of Hrestolism (while still worshiping the Bull God and their traditional spirits, while many others relied on powerful shamans who called upon dangerous (and often foreign) spirits to fight the ever-expanding Malkioni.

After around 300, Theyalan influence grew, as they settled in the upper Janube valley and the foothills of the Nidan mountains; they revealed many additional secrets about the gods (for example, more of the Bull God's Air and Death powers). After 375, the Hykimi were defeated by the wizards of Akem in a thaumaturgical contest and the Sun stopped in the Sky. Faced with defeat and potentially subjugation, the Enjoreli and Hykimi embraced the Nysalorian missionaries who taught shamans how they could draw power from the gods or use Hrestoli magic, while still being able to remain in the Spirit World. And also how to command demons from deeper than the Underworld to defeat the Malkioni.

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12 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Cross breeding elementals to make a more powerful strain of god?  Please, tell me more.

You must read the full Xeotam Dialogues in addition to the portion quoted. There's more in Revealed Mythologies - Stafford Library volume VI and a little in The Middle Sea Empire, volume VIII. As I understand it, as the powerful elementals interbred, they mixed their essences and powers to exhibit new capabilities.

However, whilst the Malkioni evolution and devolution of the descendants of the Erasanchula True Beings into the Burtae Mixed Deities is a convincing model, personally I'm not entirely convinced it is the entire story. The conflicting Theistic, Mystic and Animalist demonstrate it isn't the only, and not necessarily, the correct version (but then, the contradictory in-world sources make Glorantha more... real). For example, it is possible to be God Learnerish and identify, for example, Besos, Urox and Storm Bull as the same god, but even if they are one-and-the-same, it is probable that their Runes differ: I don't know what the Runes of Besos are, but I suspect they aren't Air and Eternal Battle.

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When it comes to cattle/sheep/similar herd beast herding peoples, it is hard to decide whether they are Storm folks migrating in from the Spike area or native Hykimi groups. The region Bisos comes from is right next to the region where Varnaval led the Andam Horde into Pelanda.

The use of Hsunchen beast god names in Storm folks isn't necessarily an indicator for Hykimi descent, either - the Harandings of Mralothenyi are clearly Orlanthi, but their pig deity bears the same name as the Hsunchen beast spirit we find in Ralios and Ramalia. So if there is a Keftavar, we cannot say whether this is Tawar the Hykimi ancestor of cattle (in Fronela) or another bull god among Storm folk. (Note that Storm folk includes the Praxian Founders and their herds, too, as it does any surviving barbarian culture of descendants of Vadrus with their goats and goatlike herd beasts. At least to the uninformed Monomythist.)

I wonder if there were people who turned into Hykimi to survive the Storm and Darkness Ages. Shapechanging into beasts wasn't limited to the Hykimi - we find both Kodig's and Korol's descendants as shapechangers into beasts in King Heort's stories, and that Fronelan myth in Anaxial's Roster suggests a similar behavior, although that may have been some syncretic myth as the Eleven Beast Hykimi of southern Fronela accepted Theyalan theism.

There is also the question what became of the Kachasti whose Genertelan holdings were in the valley that became the Nidan Mountains. These missionaries/immigrants from Danmalastan penetrated into the Barbarian Belt of Fronela and northern and western Ralios, were enslaved by their Vadeli refugees/PoWs, and then disappeared. Eaten by Chaos always is an option (also with the Vadeli), but an assimilation into the Hykimi of those regions is a possibility, too.

I am certain that the Theyalan missionaries found plenty of myths among the Enjoreli and Rathori of southern Fronela that were known to the cults of Odayla and Storm Bull/Urox, too. Or Esus and Uralda.

Edit: The Battle of Eleven Beasts had beast people fighting on the Council side as well - presumably Praxian allies, possibly Galanini too. There were definitely less than 10 different Hykimi tribes involved (the eleventh being the not quite- or no longer Hykimi Enjoreli, who IMO were similar to the Enerali in their magical origin).

 

Edited by Joerg
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7 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is also the question what became of the Kachasti whose Genertelan holdings were in the valley that became the Nidan Mountains. These missionaries/immigrants from Danmalastan penetrated into the Barbarian Belt of Fronela and northern and western Ralios, were enslaved by their Vadeli refugees/PoWs, and then disappeared. Eaten by Chaos always is an option (also with the Vadeli), but an assimilation into the Hykimi of those regions is a possibility, too.

Guide page 689

"Suddenly the Mostali erupted out of Nida, destroying most of the Kachisti cities. The Vadeli and their Mostali allies enslaved all the rest. Later Orlanth and his Storm gods freed many of the Kachisti survivors from bondage."

Which leads to one of my pet theories, but that's at a tangent to this topic.

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On 6/11/2015 17:50:48, aumshantih said:

 

When the Hero Wars start in earnest, the Gates of Banir will be reopened.  Will the Tarjinian Bull emerge again?   What will it mean for Tawars?

 

You asked a question, and we hardly touched it...

 

We know the prophecy that says:

“The Hero Age will come again: when the Nameless Man returns, and the Great Wolf howls at Sog’s Gate, the Staff of Arinsor can open the Gate of Banir again. Woe to humankind if the Three Weapons of Talor are not together.”

From the end, backwards: the reference to powers inherited from Talor seems indeed to hint at a revival of his ancient enemy, the Tarjinian Bull, in one form or another...

 

The Staff of Arinsor also clearly drives us back to the First Age wars.

 

The Great Wolf could be a reminder of the Telmori cursed by Talor.

Yet I wonder - when did Harrek's men start being labelled "Wolfs"? They only became "Wolf Pirates" when at sea with the Yggites, I guess, hence after the sack of Sog, and the reason behind taking such a name for following a Bear guy is unclear to me. So, what about the time of the horde attaching Sog, and who was part of it? Any large bunch of Telmori? Is Wolf a traditional name in Fronela for "savage raiders", that very soon nicknamed Harrek's troop?

 

Last but not Least, the Nameless Man: mentioned in the events for Loskalm (Tawars??) and Janube river states (including former tawari places?), a spirit which "has haunted Fronela for years, moving from place to place as a mist which congeals and possesses innocents to further his long-lived, nefarious scheme of destruction upon mankind".

Well, Arinsor may have an alibi on that one - the Nameless Man seems more Darkness-related than fond of Fire magics. But who knows, with these Nysalorean  Illuminates? Maybe he survived the battle with Talor, but lost his fire powers? Or maybe one of his Dark disciples became the Nameless Man? It could also somewhat embody the terrible powers of the Syndic's Ban mists?

Any hint whether it has been active for long, or if it's recent?

 

At any rate - yes, I'm quite  tempted to expect some bullish manifestations of the return of Evil in that area...

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4 hours ago, Patrick said:

Yet I wonder - when did Harrek's men start being labelled "Wolfs"? They only became "Wolf Pirates" when at sea with the Yggites, I guess, hence after the sack of Sog, and the reason behind taking such a name for following a Bear guy is unclear to me. So, what about the time of the horde attaching Sog, and who was part of it? Any large bunch of Telmori? Is Wolf a traditional name in Fronela for "savage raiders", that very soon nicknamed Harrek's troop?

According to a Gregly article in Tales #10, the Wolf Pirates were founded by Orstando Blackwolf who fought the Loskalmi and led the Pirates to Three Steps before the Sack of Sog.

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2 hours ago, metcalph said:

According to a Gregly article in Tales #10, the Wolf Pirates were founded by Orstando Blackwolf who fought the Loskalmi and led the Pirates to Three Steps before the Sack of Sog.

So did they participate in the sack of Sog, or where they operating independantly overseas at that time?

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19 minutes ago, Patrick said:

So did they participate in the sack of Sog, or where they operating independantly overseas at that time?

Apparently not.  Harrek joins the Wolf Pirates when they attack his ship of the coast of Seshnela.  I assume that he took the first boat out after he plundered Sog.

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There are numerous waves of pirate/emigrant fleets emerging from Ygg's Isles. The natives there are sailors by necessity and kept destitute by Loskalmi design.

The magic of creating the wolf spirit figureheads appears to be passed on among the Yggites. They can use the lumbering outposts on the fringes of Winterwood for preparing those fleets.

Gothalos in the northern Jrusteli archipelago is an Yggite stronghold which doesn't manage to do much piracy because the Orange Guild dominates the waters. I think that the guild employs Yggites for their navy without giving them command of their ships.

In the Pasos Isles, Ginorth has a sizeable colony of Yggites, and probably its share of wolf pirate ships. Their Luathan neighbors keep official fleets away.

Threestep Isles have the next largest sedentary Yggite population since way before Harrek joined them. The local wolf pirates probably are only 50% Yggites, with many coastal entrepeneurs in brigandy joining up with smallish fleets after falling foul of coastal navies ransacking their hideouts. Upon acceptance their ships are retrofitted animated figureheads.

I think that the Pamaltelan branch of the Wolf Pirates is instituted by Harrek in Laskal around 1622. They will raise local crews while Harrek continues his circumnavigation and Genertelan adventures.

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On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2015‎ ‎8‎:‎14‎:‎38‎, aumshantih said:

I'm intrigued by this story you mention of Brithini waking up animal people.   Where can one find it?

 

Aha! Found it!

Tales of the Reaching Moon#9 - The Origin of Humanity - excerpts from conversations with Monastavrolakhos, once of the Brick House in Kam Ramal:

"According to our oldest records, the Brithini once claimed to be the descendants of the only "true" humans on Glorantha. According to K'rzalis this is partially true, but certain other races, including the dreaded Ogres, are also descended from the First Men and are thus distant cousins of the Brithini. In any case, it is well known among Western scholars that the Brithini refer to almost all non-Western races as "animal-men", or, more precisely, "animals with human form." Most people think of this as an insult or metaphor based on our shorter lives and or our lack of "proper" (i.e. Brithini) human behavior. In fact, during the Golden Age, when they were much more open, the Brithini claimed that as they had travelled around the world they "awakened" various animals and taught them to assume human form. This was apparently their explanation for the origin of the Hsunchen, and no-one knows if it is true. Some of these animal-men then proceeded to lose touch with their beast-selves and attempted to imitate human ways and even civilization, especially the ape-men and monkey-people. So if this ancient Brithini claim is true, then they are correct in their reference to us as "animal-men"; if they hold this belief, it explains much of their behavior towards us, including their horror of mating with normal humans."

Edited by M Helsdon
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Some of my recent thoughts...

 

Long before Time, the ancient Bull God was named Tawar, Tafer, Tavar, or KefTavar, according to different traditions. There may also be a relationship with the infamous Tarjinian Bull, defeated by Talor the Laughing Warrior during the Gbaji Wars.

In the northwest, the tribes of the bull-riding Tawari led the resistance against the small surviving Malkioni colonies after the Dawn. They ruled the other Enjoreli tribes, and worshipped a violent Storm God. Whilst perhaps not Hsunchen themselves, the Tawari were allied with and benefitted from the support of the Eleven Beasts Alliance of Hsunchen tribes in Fronela.

The Enjoreli were defeated by the Malkioni colony of Isefwal in 220, and retreated back to their farms and pastures. Those that later threatened Akem were defeated by Talor of Loskalm in 450, being driven eastwards. Many of the surviving cattle-raising pastoralists were quick to embrace the Theyalan gods.

The Enjoreli were distantly related to the legendary Enelvi, who were ruled by the divine Kereusi dynasty before Time in what is now Vanstal, south of the Sweet Sea. The first generation of this dynasty was fathered upon the goddess Esus by the Bull God KefTavar. Bisos was the younger brother of Kereus, and gave his name to the Bisosae, the People of Bisos. The Horned Bisosae Kings ruled before the Dawn.

Bisos and Esus are the Bull God and Cow Goddess of Pelanda. The violent Bull God Bisos is variously identified with Urox and Storm Bull by Theyalans, whilst Esus is identified with Ernalda or her daughter Uralda. In ancient times the cult of Bisos involved bull dancing.

The Bull Shahs of Carmania claimed their descent from the ancient Bull Lords of Vanstal.

Urox the Storm Bull is a war god in the Orlanthi pantheon, and especially the fanatical berserk warrior against Chaos. According to God Learner genealogies he is the son of Umath and Mikyh the Beast Mother – though they never had access to Peloria, and so their claims may be spurious. (Indeed, Hykim and Mikyh may simply be placeholders in the deific genealogies when the God Learners were unable or uninterested in determining the beast god ancestor.)

Urox himself fathered the first bull-headed minotaur upon a daughter of Uleria, or perhaps upon Velhara. The cow goddess of the Orlanthi is Uralda, a daughter of Ernalda, and Hykim.

In the ancient lands of the Enjoreli in what is now Junora and Jonatela, the Bull God is not entirely submerged by the Theyalan culture. The Oranor tribal confederation in Junora worship Orlanth as the bull-riding chief of the gods. When Charg emerged from the Syndics Ban it was ruled by Bull Lords who worship Urox and other war gods of the Orlanthi pantheon.

In Prax Eiritha the Herd Mother, daughter of Ernalda and Hykim, is the wife of Storm Bull, who is depicted with the head of the tribal herd beast.

The White Bull spirit was prophesized to make peace between the Bison and Sable peoples and lead the Praxians to greatness by destroying the foreigners.

 

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I wonder if there are still any bull-riders? They seem an obvious mount for Urox champions...

In the Guide there's Krotnon Bullrider, a priest of Orlanth, and in The Coming Storm, Orkarl Bullrider.

Edited by M Helsdon

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On 4/26/2017 at 3:25 PM, M Helsdon said:

Some of my recent thoughts...

 

Long before Time, the ancient Bull God was named Tawar, Tafer, Tavar, or KefTavar, according to different traditions. There may also be a relationship with the infamous Tarjinian Bull, defeated by Talor the Laughing Warrior during the Gbaji Wars.

In the northwest, the tribes of the bull-riding Tawari led the resistance against the small surviving Malkioni colonies after the Dawn. They ruled the other Enjoreli tribes, and worshipped a violent Storm God. Whilst perhaps not Hsunchen themselves, the Tawari were allied with and benefitted from the support of the Eleven Beasts Alliance of Hsunchen tribes in Fronela.

I see the Enjoreli pretty much as a parallel to the Enerali - descended from the Tawari after adopting certain civilizing elements. Enjor and Kereus are second generation founders, much like Pendal, Eneral and (to some extent) Waha, Diros (for the western Sofali) and possibly Orlanth (at least in some lesser aspects, as leader of the Downland Migration) .

About 20 years ago several people had a fun discussion about the "Urlanthi" (sic) roots of the Hill Barbarians as former cattle and sheep Hsunchen turned to theism. Several groups in the history of western Genertela fit this concept, also including the more civilized ber folk south of the Janube, worshipping Resat rather than Rathor (possibly another son-of-the-beast-godand-the-land-founder). We didn't know about the Kachasti, then, who ight have been another foreign influence besides the serpent shaman(ess?) sisterhood referenced as Likiti in Old Seshnela.

We do know (from Revealed Mythologies) that the Kachasti occupied a territory that got divided by the sudden raising of the Nidan Mountains by the Mostali.the the. I find it rather safe to assume that they had spread along the coast of the Neleomi as well as deeper into Genertela along the Nidan ridge. After the Vadeli suicide rebellion wit the aid of the Mostali the surviving Genertelan Kachasti were either enslaved by the Vadeli overlords or fled into the lands of the beastfolk.The more civilized descendants of the Hykimi who threw the Vadeli out of Genertela may very well have had grateful Kachasti-descended subjects in those cities of theirs, elevating their material culture. Maybe the Third Eye Blues are an exceptional non-assimilated group of surviving Kachasti? Possibly escaped slaves that had been given to the Mostali by the Vadeli. (The Brithini colonies of Neleos, Froalar, Isef, and whoever founded Nenanduft and Arolanit are the result of later cleansing of dissidents against Zzabur - possibly some survivors of the Expulsion Walk, too.)

A presence of heirs of the Kachasti could explain the better material culture of those Hykimi city states already in the Gray Age. I do wonder who or what awakened them from the Greater Darkness - did they have an I Fought We Won experience, and if so, was it tied to the Serpent stuff or King Dan? Unlike in Peloria, the Lightbringers don't appear to  have awakened these cultures. High King Elf emerged from Winterwood at the Dawn, awakening the western forests. The Theyalan Awakeners would have come as far as Tarinwood and Rist to find sleeping Brown Elf communities, while Erontree, Ballid and Eol would have been contacted from Winterwood. I would like to know who went to awaken the forests of Kanthor, Jorestl and the two forests of Brithos, though.

Except for the northern Fronelans, the Pralori and the Damaliof Pralorela, the Telmori and a few other remnants in Vesmonstran and the East Wilds, all of the civilized beast folk of the Dawn became Orlanthi or were absorbed by the Malkioni (the latter often after their Theyalan conversion). Greymane of the Basim Solanthi is clearly a heir of Pendal, the Enerali are theyalanized and malkionized

(I wish I had known about them, and more about the Galanini, when I challenged Sandy about the Praxians being little more than a variant of the Hsunchen in the first year of the RuneQuest Daily.)

 

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The Enjoreli were defeated by the Malkioni colony of Isefwal in 220, and retreated back to their farms and pastures. Those that later threatened Akem were defeated by Talor of Loskalm in 450, being driven eastwards. Many of the surviving cattle-raising pastoralists were quick to embrace the Theyalan gods.

The Enjoreli were distantly related to the legendary Enelvi, who were ruled by the divine Kereusi dynasty before Time in what is now Vanstal, south of the Sweet Sea. The first generation of this dynasty was fathered upon the goddess Esus by the Bull God KefTavar. Bisos was the younger brother of Kereus, and gave his name to the Bisosae, the People of Bisos. The Horned Bisosae Kings ruled before the Dawn.

Bisos and Esus are the Bull God and Cow Goddess of Pelanda. The violent Bull God Bisos is variously identified with Urox and Storm Bull by Theyalans, whilst Esus is identified with Ernalda or her daughter Uralda. In ancient times the cult of Bisos involved bull dancing.

Bisos is the leader who liberated Oronin from the Vadeli (or Veldang, or both). He is probably the easternmost herd beast rider who had to deal with Vadeli conquerors.

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The Bull Shahs of Carmania claimed their descent from the ancient Bull Lords of Vanstal.

Urox the Storm Bull is a war god in the Orlanthi pantheon, and especially the fanatical berserk warrior against Chaos. According to God Learner genealogies he is the son of Umath and Mikyh the Beast Mother – though they never had access to Peloria, and so their claims may be spurious. (Indeed, Hykim and Mikyh may simply be placeholders in the deific genealogies when the God Learners were unable or uninterested in determining the beast god ancestor.)

 

The God Learner sequence of beast genealogies relied on data colllected on the Ralian, Fronelan and Manirian Hykimi and input from the colonies of Eest, Kralorela and Umathela.

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Urox himself fathered the first bull-headed minotaur upon a daughter of Uleria, or perhaps upon Velhara. The cow goddess of the Orlanthi is Uralda, a daughter of Ernalda, and Hykim.

In the ancient lands of the Enjoreli in what is now Junora and Jonatela, the Bull God is not entirely submerged by the Theyalan culture. The Oranor tribal confederation in Junora worship Orlanth as the bull-riding chief of the gods. When Charg emerged from the Syndics Ban it was ruled by Bull Lords who worship Urox and other war gods of the Orlanthi pantheon.

 

There are two different kinds of bull gods - those who ride them, and those who are them.

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In Prax Eiritha the Herd Mother, daughter of Ernalda and Hykim, is the wife of Storm Bull, who is depicted with the head of the tribal herd beast.

 

The founders (sons of the Storm Bull and Eiritha) are depicted as contest winners with the tribal beast's head. The Protectresses are depicted as having the herd beast body and the human (or Morokanth) head.

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The White Bull spirit was prophesized to make peace between the Bison and Sable peoples and lead the Praxians to greatness by destroying the foreigners.

 

I was under the impression that t he White Bull was the Praxian version of the Silver Deer conquest.

On 4/26/2017 at 3:26 PM, M Helsdon said:

I wonder if there are still any bull-riders? They seem an obvious mount for Urox champions...

The Dragon Pass Uroxi have  an even better choice of mount - the sky bulls of Sormwalk Mountain. Otherwise, I would opt for a bison rather than domestic cattle, prior to the return of the aurochs.

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In the Guide there's Krotnon Bullrider, a priest of Orlanth, and in The Coming Storm, Orkarl Bullrider.

I wonder whether these individuals have performed the lariat and stick Taming of the Bull - an Orlanth feat proving his superiority over his older (half-) brother.

Edited by Joerg
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24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

About 20 years ago several people had a fun discussion about the "Urlanthi" (sic) roots of the Hill Barbarins as former catle and sheep Hsunchen turned to theism.

From the material in the Guide, it seems likely that a large number of modern Orlanthi are descendants of Hsunchen peoples, especially in Ralios, Jonatela and western Peloria.

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Bisos is the leader who liberated Oronin from the Vadeli (or Veldang, or both). He is probably the easternmost herd beast rider who had to deal with Vadeli conquerors.

There seem to be more Blue People than just the Vadeli or Veldang.

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The God Learner sequence of beast genealogies relied on data colllected on the Ralian, Fronelan and Manirian Hykimi and input from the colonies of Eest, Kralorela and Umathela.

Given what eventually happened to them, God Learner genealogies are all suspect, and potentially corrupted numerous myth cycles. The Monomyth is obviously a construction, and there are so many inconsistencies in it that it can only be taken as a broad and undetailed source.

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There are two different kinds of bull gods - those who ride them, and those who are them.

 I know. This is why I attempted to draw out a potential genealogy from the in-world sources.

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The founders (sons of the Storm Bull and Eiritha) are depicted as contest winners with the tribal beast's head. The Protectresses are depicted as having the herd beast body and the human (or Morokanth) head.

True. But are Eiritha and Uralda masks of the same goddess, filtered via two different cultures, or are they sister deities?

 

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On 12/8/2015 at 3:14 AM, M Helsdon said:

Aha! Found it!

Tales of the Reaching Moon#9 - The Origin of Humanity - excerpts from conversations with Monastavrolakhos, once of the Brick House in Kam Ramal:

"According to our oldest records, the Brithini once claimed to be the descendants of the only "true" humans on Glorantha. According to K'rzalis this is partially true, but certain other races, including the dreaded Ogres, are also descended from the First Men and are thus distant cousins of the Brithini. In any case, it is well known among Western scholars that the Brithini refer to almost all non-Western races as "animal-men", or, more precisely, "animals with human form." Most people think of this as an insult or metaphor based on our shorter lives and or our lack of "proper" (i.e. Brithini) human behavior. In fact, during the Golden Age, when they were much more open, the Brithini claimed that as they had travelled around the world they "awakened" various animals and taught them to assume human form. This was apparently their explanation for the origin of the Hsunchen, and no-one knows if it is true. Some of these animal-men then proceeded to lose touch with their beast-selves and attempted to imitate human ways and even civilization, especially the ape-men and monkey-people. So if this ancient Brithini claim is true, then they are correct in their reference to us as "animal-men"; if they hold this belief, it explains much of their behavior towards us, including their horror of mating with normal humans."

So does that make Waha a Brithini?  Does that mean the morokanth beast men refused to abandon their beast-selves after the Brithini cast the sorcerous form of Release  Intelligence upon them?  They "cheated" because they got their intelligence unfixed, but retained their beast form?

Edited by Pentallion

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